The Floro Replacement

[MtlMario]

19 hours ago, Kent said:

Yes, I've thought Quebec seems under-represented as well. Another angle I thought might work nicely with a French coach (after you suggested it, I hadn't thought of mining France for a CMNT coach) is the MLS partnership with FFF for coaching education. Add in that TFC has Laurent Guyot leading it's academy, and it seems we are already borrowing from France in terms of educating some of our best young prospects. Perhaps some of these coaches and the players they are coaching would be on the same page.

The Impact Academy director is French also (Plilippe Eullaffroy). Just for your info.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 25/11/2016 at 4:35 PM, Ruffian said:

thaanSaying please is authoritarian to you? If someone is spamming every thread with the same pointless American hate I think people on this forum have the right to speak up. But as usual you have to put in your opinion as if it is fact and I am welcome to disregard it as the drivel is usually is.

Then disregard the drivel and stop whining. The whole idea that you can try to dictate what gets said by whom is authoritarian and totally out of place in the forum.

Anyone waving the red-white-and blue in the middle of the Canada supporter section deserves to get what any infiltrator would get anywhere. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 25/11/2016 at 5:58 PM, shermanator said:

When Unnamed Trialist is defending a poster, it's a pretty good sign he's a troll.

Since I have liked way more posts of yours than this guys, Shermanator, by your own logic you are a way more massive troll than he is.

Just to show that when you don't have any basis in logic you end up eating your words, they become self-inflicted unintended irony. All you are doing, Shermanator, is calling yourself a massive troll and defending our arch rivals south of the border at the same time, fancy that.

[dyslexic nam]

10 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Then disregard the drivel and stop whining. The whole idea that you can try to dictate what gets said by whom is authoritarian and totally out of place in the forum.

Anyone waving the red-white-and blue in the middle of the Canada supporter section deserves to get what any infiltrator would get anywhere. 

 

Sentence 1 = telling Ruffian what he shouldn't post.

Sentence 2 = a general statement that telling people what they should and should not post is unacceptable here.

 

lol

[dyslexic nam]

The point isn't that he isn't welcome to his anti-American opinions.  Or even that he shouldn't post them here occasionally.

 

The main issue is that he should stop endlessly, mindlessly posting the same thing ad nauseum.  He has 60+ posts that could be summed up with the following:

 

"America is shit.  MLS is shit.  Canada is better than America.  CPL will be better than MLS."

 

If you hold those views, more power to ya.  But if that is your only contribution, posted over and over relentlessly, don't be surprised if a few people call you out.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

 

Sentence 1 = telling Ruffian what he shouldn't post.

Sentence 2 = a general statement that telling people what they should and should not post is unacceptable here.

 

lol

Actually, lol, wrong.

The first sentence merely qualifies what Ruffian is doing, it does not prohibit it. He is free to post what he wants and I am free to put an adjective on it. His case, authoritarian; your case, reading comprehension problem.

Second sentence you could be right, but only if we premise that this is not a Canaidian soccer board, which it has been since I joined in the year 2000. This is in fact widely agreed upon here, that any fan of another nation trying to troll Canada fans is unwelcome. I am happy to defend it as a restriction. So are 95% of posters here.

Thing is, that is not the case here: it is a Canadian fan slagging the US, rather extremely. So more comprehension problems, sorry to say. 

All I am really saying, guys, is that if you want to defend US soccer and be an ass-licking poster in their favour, like Ruffian, then probably this is not the right forum for you.

[dyslexic nam]

Slag the US all you want.  And if it is your thing, lick as much ass as you feel like UT.  Fill yer boots -  I don't give a shit.

 

But people will still point out the MG's posts are repetitive.  

[shermanator]

26 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Since I have liked way more posts of yours than this guys, Shermanator, by your own logic you are a way more massive troll than he is.

Just to show that when you don't have any basis in logic you end up eating your words, they become self-inflicted unintended irony. All you are doing, Shermanator, is calling yourself a massive troll and defending our arch rivals south of the border at the same time, fancy that.

Seems you've spent too much time being a plastic at the Camp Nou that you've forgotten the realities that Canadian soccer faces today. That you cannot see MG's posts bashing the American pyramid as inferior to the Canadian pyramid as being completely void of fact sums up how detached you are from the real world.

[Levi Oakey]

This thread has been officially derailed!

[matty]

15 hours ago, jpg75 said:

I don't see why there's a need to limit latin coaches to CONCACAF only. Someone who has coached club and/or international football in CONMEBOL is just as or more qualified than most CONCACAF coaches.

The best value for the buck in latin america would be a Colombian or Uruguayan, perhaps a Chilean as well. Argentines are the best in quality, but the good ones would be too expensive (like coaching in Liga MX expensive).

Oh without doubt but there is a strong push both on these forums and in the media for a coach from concacaf. If we're talking beyond concacaf then I'd be a ok with a solid south american coach.

I'm hoping they are willing to spend more on this coach than any before if they are looking for a 4 year coach.

[matty]

3 hours ago, Levi Oakey said:

This thread has been officially derailed!

I will not let @Mister215Guy's shitposts ruin this thread!

So how about that floro replacement? Taking a while am i right?

[toontownman]

Don't think we were expecting a decision until new year. That said there shouldn't be any excuse not to have the new set up in place for camp poutine. 

Seems unlikely at this point. Let's hope it's just all behind the scenes. 

[matty]

18 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Don't think we were expecting a decision until new year. That said there shouldn't be any excuse not to have the new set up in place for camp poutine. 

Seems unlikely at this point. Let's hope it's just all behind the scenes. 

I'm hopeful they're in power by the March camp.

[jpg75]

2 hours ago, matty said:

Oh without doubt but there is a strong push both on these forums and in the media for a coach from concacaf. If we're talking beyond concacaf then I'd be a ok with a solid south american coach.

So your opinion is being formed by the media and people on this forum? (you did point out "i'd be open to a French coach instead of a latin one")

[matty]

58 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

So your opinion is being formed by the media and people on this forum? (you did point out "i'd be open to a French coach instead of a latin one")

I'm kind of against what many people on this forum want as I'm more open to someone who's worked in MLS than say Panama and I'm not just being a contrarian. The push for Central American coaches on this forum is built around the idea that a non-Latin won't be able to succeed there but a Central American could and I disagree. I believe playing friendlies there more often, prior to the next WCQ, would benefit us more and think that just because someone has lead Panama to the hex doesn't mean there going to be able to do the same with our current crop of players due to reasons ranging from our pool size and fitness, the style our guys play and language.

I do agree that someone know's CONCACAF should be heavily considered but I don't think that experience needs to come from coaching. This opinion and the MLS one has partly been updated due to a piece by a piece written by Terry Dunfield but I've believed a MLS coach could work with our team for a while.

The reason I said I would be more open to a French is because one of the rumoured big issues Floro had was language and I think employing a coach that is able to easily communicate with around a quarter to a third of our players would be preferable to one that can only speak easily with 2 to 4. While they are not CONCACAF, like a Liga MX, Ligue 1 and 2 coaches need to be high quality and might be able to adapt to our guys with greater ease than coaches from much of CONCACAF  (yes, that makes them costly). You can also add the possibility of them being more attractive to fencesitters.

It's also worth noting that unlike many I don't feel the hex is the goal for the next coach. Gold Cup quarters are. We need that sort of minor success before we start planning for getting to the hex in 4 years.

[jpg75]

16 hours ago, matty said:

I'm kind of against what many people on this forum want as I'm more open to someone who's worked in MLS than say Panama and I'm not just being a contrarian. The push for Central American coaches on this forum is built around the idea that a non-Latin won't be able to succeed there but a Central American could and I disagree.

Well therein lies your false assumption. I can only speak for myself, but i'm pretty sure that alot of the other regular posters who have been here for over a decade would agree with me when i say that any number of latin coaches with CONCACAF experience should be considered because they bring the best value for the CSA's dollar and not because a non-latin/MLS won't succeed. If the choice is between a Pinto, Rueda or other quality (non-Mexican) latino for similar or less money than a Schmid, Arena or Bradley then the CSA should seek the latin coach because he's more likely to succeed based on past history of success per unit of compensation. If you're going to look at a cheaper option like Marsch, Vanney, dos Santos or Biello then for the amount of money you'd pay them you can go out and buy a more proven, experienced coach like Maturana or Guimaraes. 

I also find it telling that One American is the only person in 8 pages to mention Oscar Pareja who is one of the top MLS coaches and is under consideration for the USNT job but is not on the radar of any of our blogger/podcaster brigade. While we're at it i'd also consider former FCD coach Schellas Hyndman to be a more proven MLS coach than most of the other ones mentioned previously.

edit: ID'd wrong poster bringing up Pareja

[jpg75]

5 hours ago, matty said:

The reason I said I would be more open to a French is because one of the rumoured big issues Floro had was language and I think employing a coach that is able to easily communicate with around a quarter to a third of our players would be preferable to one that can only speak easily with 2 to 4. While they are not CONCACAF, like a Liga MX, Ligue 1 and 2 coaches need to be high quality and might be able to adapt to our guys with greater ease than coaches from much of CONCACAF  (yes, that makes them costly). You can also add the possibility of them being more attractive to fencesitters.

I would love to hire a French coach. My father is French, i have French citizenship and they're my second NT after Canada (i saw them play Albania at Euros this summer). Like a Liga MX coach a good Ligue 1 coach would cost more than the CSA is likely willing to pay. A Laurent Blanc would be way out of our league sadly. Some of the secondary French coaches make a good living working in CAF, as much as 1M Euros for some of the top paying nations like Ivory Coast, Morocco, Tunisia. If we got lucky and snagged one of those by paying more or catching their fancy we would be lucky.

edit: Just thinking about the number of francophones on the NT. Piette and....Tissot, Ouimette, Lefevre, AJH. So basically one guy and 4 fringe guys.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Well therein lies your false assumption. I can only speak for myself, but i'm pretty sure that alot of the other regular posters who have been here for over a decade would agree with me when i say that any number of latin coaches with CONCACAF experience should be considered because they bring the best value........

 

Quote

I also find it telling that the Grizzly is the only person in 8 pages to mention Oscar Pareja who is one of the top MLS coaches and is under consideration for the USNT job but is not on the radar of any of our blogger/podcaster brigade. While we're at it i'd also consider former FCD coach Schellas Hyndman to be a more proven MLS coach than most of the other ones mentioned previously.

I posted that weeks ago, that for me the only quality coach in MLS is Pareja. Before the playoffs. Before folks started saying Vanney is a sharp tactician, frigging ridiculous. Almost all MLS coaches are what the Spanish call, endearingly, "madres". 

[Unnamed Trialist]

BTW best post so far on the question considering skill , money and experience.

[Keegan]

There's no doubt Pareja is the best MLS option BY FAR.  I think he's out of our league to be honest, and it would be a tough challenge for him.  He's working his way up making a name, does he want to ruin that by managing a bunch of players that don't fit his style?  He's been successful at Dallas because he's been able to bring in a core of talented players on reasonable deals.  

 

[jpg75]

9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 

I posted that weeks ago, that for me the only quality coach in MLS is Pareja. Before the playoffs. Before folks started saying Vanney is a sharp tactician, frigging ridiculous. Almost all MLS coaches are what the Spanish call, endearingly, "madres". 

Sorry Jeffrey, looks like you and Blackdude also mentioned him...and One American, not Grizzly, suggested him.

[matty]

13 hours ago, jpg75 said:

 

edit: Just thinking about the number of francophones on the NT. Piette and....Tissot, Ouimette, Lefevre, AJH. So basically one guy and 4 fringe guys.

 5 plus those who speak it strong as a second language which likely adds 5 to 10 guys. I do agree a french coach will not likely happen due to money

14 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Well therein lies your false assumption. I can only speak for myself, but i'm pretty sure that alot of the other regular posters who have been here for over a decade would agree with me when i say that any number of latin coaches with CONCACAF experience should be considered because they bring the best value for the CSA's dollar and not because a non-latin/MLS won't succeed. If the choice is between a Pinto, Rueda or other quality (non-Mexican) latino for similar or less money than a Schmid, Arena or Bradley then the CSA should seek the latin coach because he's more likely to succeed based on past history of success per unit of compensation. If you're going to look at a cheaper option like Marsch, Vanney, dos Santos or Biello then for the amount of money you'd pay them you can go out and buy a more proven, experienced coach like Maturana or Guimaraes. 

I also find it telling that One American is the only person in 8 pages to mention Oscar Pareja who is one of the top MLS coaches and is under consideration for the USNT job but is not on the radar of any of our blogger/podcaster brigade. While we're at it i'd also consider former FCD coach Schellas Hyndman to be a more proven MLS coach than most of the other ones mentioned previously.

edit: ID'd wrong poster bringing up Pareja

There's a large number of posters here whu are saying go with a central american because they think they will win not because of budget. Also speaking of budget, it's likely their going to go over floros rumoured salary of 350k~ (maybe 4-500k) which should be enough to secure a solid coach (eg sigi made 500k~). Again i feel you're ignoring some keys issues including language and our style which might benefit more from someone familiar with it. It's not saying a central american/latin coach is going to be a bad choice but it's got a lot going against it, a lot of the issues floro had communicating and working with the team could still be there. (that said I'd pick a daly veldes over a guy similar to floro, dated and away from the game for a long time, again)

Pareja hasn't come up a lot because he's employed i think (same with vanneu and biello who only came up because of playoffs while Arena and marsh got a number of mentions because of past events and robinson because everyone figured he would be out at vancouver). 

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, matty said:

 There's a large number of posters here whu are saying go with a central american because they think they will win not because of budget. Also speaking of budget, it's likely their going to go over floros rumoured salary of 350k~ (maybe 4-500k) which should be enough to secure a solid coach (eg sigi made 500k~).

Again i feel you're ignoring some keys issues including language and our style which might benefit more from someone familiar with it. It's not saying a central american/latin coach is going to be a bad choice but it's got a lot going against it, a lot of the issues floro had communicating and working with the team could still be there. (that said I'd pick a daly veldes over a guy similar to floro, dated and away from the game for a long time, again)

So are you tailoring your argument to counter those posters who are less informed? That only demeans the position you hold.

I am not ignoring those key issues, i am choosing to give them less priority. The top priority is to find a coach with a sound footballing mind, a good coach will be a good coach regardless of circumstances. He will adapt, he will assess his teams strengths and weaknesses and build accordingly. With a Colombian coach i find the style issue would not even be a concern, as the typical Colombian player will be athletic and have decent technique - that's why they do well in MLS. Reinaldo Rueda stepped in to the Honduran NT job and found that the skill level was there, but the players lacked discipline and the will for systemic defensive team play. He went about moulding them to his will and created the best Honduran team in history. I am sure he could do something similar for our NT, building coherent team play and having them moving together as a unit, both defensively and offensively.

edit: and if style is an issue why are you advocating for a Liga MX coach? the Mexican player pool is arguably more technique oriented than most other latin american nations.

[matty]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

So are you tailoring your argument to counter those posters who are less informed? That only demeans the position you hold.

I am not ignoring those key issues, i am choosing to give them less priority. The top priority is to find a coach with a sound footballing mind, a good coach will be a good coach regardless of circumstances. He will adapt, he will assess his teams strengths and weaknesses and build accordingly. With a Colombian coach i find the style issue would not even be a concern, as the typical Colombian player will be athletic and have decent technique - that's why they do well in MLS. Reinaldo Rueda stepped in to the Honduran NT job and found that the skill level was there, but the players lacked discipline and the will for systemic defensive team play. He went about moulding them to his will and created the best Honduran team in history. I am sure he could do something similar for our NT, building coherent team play and having them moving together as a unit, both defensively and offensively.

edit: and if style is an issue why are you advocating for a Liga MX coach? the Mexican player pool is arguably more technique oriented than most other latin american nations.

I am not tailoring. All I'm saying is there are a great deal of posters who are wanting a Latin coach for that reason, I don't deny that there are some who are thinking it with rational reasoning but I don't feel they're as vocal here (could be wrong on that but they're not standing out).

You can give them less priority if you want but they should be taken seriously. You can imagine a Rueda coming into the Canadian program and turning it around but if they struggle to communicate then then improvements we're all hoping for might come at a much slower pace than desired.

As for adapting to our style, it's something that should to happen fairly quickly as the next coach is going to have to deal with a Gold Cup in their first 7 months. I think having someone familiar with our style would benefit us more for that tournament than someone who has to get to know it a bit. I can see some coaches understanding our style quickly but again the communication needs to be there too.

If a latin concacaf coach with a record of success is fluent in english or french then yes they should be looked at but if not then it might be wise to avoid them.

I'm open to Liga MX because they're arguably the most skillful coaches in the region and they may be able to adapt to our situation with greater success than coaches through out Central America (including some national team ones). Not saying it's a lock but it's more likely and again if they can't communicate this could also hurt us.

[jpg75]

Meh, i think the communication issue is overstated due to the recent experiences with Floro. Those issues and conflicts had probably more to do with the culture shock of having a hard-assed dinosaur in charge more than anything else.

As far as the short time frame, i think you're paying too much attention to getting a result at the next GC. In the last 16 years there has actually been a negative correlation between GC success and WCQ success. 2000 (1st), 2003 (3rd) and 2007 (SF) saw us flaming out of WCQ in spectacular fashion while the last two WCQ capaigns have been arguably the most successful in the past 20 years. The important thing is to get our top players accepting callups and playing meaningful games together and learning and working with our new coach. The ONLY thing that matters is qualifying for the WC. Everything else is noise.

I'm curious, what Central American coaches are you comparing to those high priced Argentines from the EPL of the Americas aka Liga MX? (making 7 figures so we can't afford them anyways). Forget Dely Valdes, he's not proven or experienced enough. Guimaraes and Maradiaga are affordable options, you can't compare them to coaches making 3 or 4, maybe even up to 10 times their salary.

As for them adapting faster i doubt that. Liga MX and Argentine Primera are full of smaller, faster, skillful players; alot less similar than the Colombian or Uruguayan leagues.