Canadian Premier League

[Complete Homer]

39 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I don't see it as a problem for TFC so have a relationship with a club like London(should they eventually get a CPL team).  Like don't we see this kind of thing all the in Europe?  They aren't official farm clubs but certain high profile teams will have good relationships with certain lower clubs, one sorta helps one find/develop talented players, and the other helps the smaller one financially?  But they are still separate?  Or am I out to lunch?

My gripe was the comment about TFC being Ontario's team, not the affiliation 

[ironcub14]

11 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

For those who oppose the idea of the CPL in favour of American leagues, I have a question (a legitimate one, not a trolling or gotcha question).

Should the Fury sit out next season (which seems increasingly likely), does that affect your view on having Canadian pro teams play in American D2 leagues?  Consensus seems to be that OFFC was fairly well-managed and a good example to follow... yet even that appears to not be enough.  Do you see any hope that other Canadian teams could thrive in the same system?  Could OFFC & OSEG have done anything better to allow the team to move past a three-year lifespan?

I hope this one wasn't aimed at me, I did make the argument for USL before, but I made that argument very much with CPL becoming a reality 10 years down the road through gradual expansion. And after the great back-and-forth here in this thread over the weeks, thanks guys, I'm happy to be leaning more towards CPL as of this decade at this point over USL. 

As for the Fury, I read somewhere that they may very well have been posting annual losses, but that this loss was the lowest in the entire league. I have zero idea as to whether that is true or not, but the Fury did a lot of things well up to the end of 2015, I can't think of many things they could have done differently. I think this move is about leaving a league that is possibly in decline, rather than a decision that was needed solely due to the club's financial performances. 

I would pose the question that most if not all CPL clubs would be expected to post annual losses over the initial years, but that we are not too worried about this due to the ownership groups potentially involved. 

[ted]

2 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

http://rebrn.com/re/german-th-division-club-sv-wilhelmshaven-just-defeated-fifa-in-t-2839317/

This 7th Division German club just defeated FIFA in German court. I forget who keep on posting here about FIFA having 'all the cards' but, here you go and they clearly don't and never did.

Actually if you read the article they did no such thing. They proved that they were not under FIFA jurisdiction because of the the way the DFB and regional leagues are structured in Germany.

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Toronto FC announce affiliation with FC London. "Toronto FC is not just the GTA's team, but it is Ontario's team"

Them fighting words

Clearly MLSE thinks the league is real.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, zen said:

No you're right. I just think that granting TFC right of first refusal - which  I assume they would get with the agreement - over talent coming out of clubs prevents CPL teams from scouting and signing the same talent. Also teams in Europe only have good relationships to the extent that they share best practices and loan players. Right of first refusal as I'm worried is not very common, especially within the same country.

Well, if a kid who is on FC London doesn't have a pro contract, I'm sure a CPL team can swoop in and sign him no questions asked even with TFC's partnership in place.

[TRM]

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

For those who oppose the idea of the CPL in favour of American leagues,

Not so much oppose but just see it as unrealistic is my position.

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

Should the Fury sit out next season (which seems increasingly likely),

I hope not. That would mean a lost year of play for a lot of Canadian players. The players would have to scramble to get themselves trials and jobs elsewhere. It would only add to the perception of soccer as unstable to fans and potential owners.

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

does that affect your view on having Canadian pro teams play in American D2 leagues?  Consensus seems to be that OFFC was fairly well-managed and a good example to follow... yet even that appears to not be enough.  Do you see any hope that other Canadian teams could thrive in the same system?  Could OFFC & OSEG have done anything better to allow the team to move past a three-year lifespan?

Very few soccer teams at ANY LEVEL in North America thrive. This is a gate based business for the foreseeable future. A single entity (MLS & supposedly CPL model) works to shield the weakest. But that has limits as Chivas USA found out. Some TV deals provide money to MLS but nothing, or next to it, to anything else.

http://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2016-mls-attendance/

http://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2016-nasl-attendance/

Any NASL / USL would kill for those low end numbers of 14k - 16k. Very few D2/D3 teams achieve anything close. There are a few remarkable exceptions who show it can be done. 

[TRM]

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

I think this move is about leaving a league that is possibly in decline, rather than a decision that was needed solely due to the club's financial performances. 

USL collapsed down to a regional D3 and lower set of leagues. They then made the smart move of partnering with the 800 pound gorilla and added (or will add) close to 20 teams with stable ownership. They were the more realistic of the 2 and I think NASL's days are numbered. MLS will always grab their best attended teams and move them up with zero compensation. 

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

I would pose the question that most if not all CPL clubs would be expected to post annual losses over the initial years, but that we are not too worried about this due to the ownership groups potentially involved. 

I would always be worried about losses over any extended time period. Even the MLS original owners thought about throwing in the towel on at least one occasion. Look at what they were worth. Successful businessmen will not go long without re-evaluating their positions. That is how they got to be successful. 

[zen]

37 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Well, if a kid who is on FC London doesn't have a pro contract, I'm sure a CPL team can swoop in and sign him no questions asked even with TFC's partnership in place.

I think teams should be paid to develop players, so players should be required to sign some sort of agreement

[Complete Homer]

A post popped up in the Ottawa thread, apparently assurances about playing next year were made at a player/fan/ticketrep mingling event (though no commitment to either NASL or USL). Hints about CPL were dropped

EDIT: Apparently they commented on the academy as well. It wasn't working for the club for multiple reasons, expectation is that they are going to reboot in a few years and kick on.

Crisis hopefully averted! Re-engage wild optimism

[Complete Homer]

Also, just hours after the tweet that claimed Frank Stronach was partnering with the former manager of his team in Austria (who is also former manager of the Strikers) were planning to purchase the Strikers, another report says the negotiation already collapsed in the past. Hopefully he still has a taste for North American soccer and jumps on a CPL franchise 

sources close to the negotiations for the purchase of the team yielded figures: an offer of $1 million from the Edwards group. Added to the mix was former coach and fan favorite Günter Kronsteiner, who partnered with good friend Frank Stronach (of Gulfstream Park and FK Austria Vienna) with a competing bid. However negotiations broke off when the Brazilians set an asking price of $15 million for a team with no facilities, no stadium, and according to sources, no ownership of their own trademark.

[ironcub14]

I was just thinking for 5 minutes about potential names for a Toronto CPL club, and I thought it'd be pretty cool to incorporate York into the club name somewhere, as a homage to the old name and the old York County. Kinda like how the name SS Lazio pays tribute to the admistrative region (province) that Rome is based in. 

A couple names that just kicked in I wanted to share were

- Royal York Football Club (RYFC)

- York United Football Club (YUFC)

- Toronto York Football Club (TYFC)

And obviously, if Goldhar wants to name it Maccabi Toronto or whatever the hell he feels like, then York could be something to consider incorporating for a Toronto CPL SG or something, lol.

And I do realize that people might be wondering why they named a footy club after a hotel, for the first one, damn it lol. 

[matty]

33 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I was just thinking for 5 minutes about potential names for a Toronto CPL club, and I thought it'd be pretty cool to incorporate York into the club name somewhere, as a homage to the old name and the old York County. Kinda like how the name SS Lazio pays tribute to the admistrative region (province) that Rome is based in. 

A couple names that just kicked in I wanted to share were

- Royal York Football Club (RYFC)

- York United Football Club (YUFC)

- Toronto York Football Club (TYFC)

And obviously, if Goldhar wants to name it Maccabi Toronto or whatever the hell he feels like, then York could be something to consider incorporating for a Toronto CPL SG or something, lol. 
 

We all know the team will have some kind of Drake reference....just kidding. I think they'll go for something that mixes a traditional FC or AFC with a traditional North American sporting name like Toronto Lakers AFC or something (hopefully not that).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

10 hours ago, TRM said:

USL collapsed down to a regional D3 and lower set of leagues. They then made the smart move of partnering with the 800 pound gorilla and added (or will add) close to 20 teams with stable ownership. They were the more realistic of the 2 and I think NASL's days are numbered. MLS will always grab their best attended teams and move them up with zero compensation. 

It's easy to talk the talk about being D1 like the NASL did, but a lot harder to walk the walk. Not sure why so many people on this thread are so confident that limiting a league to an area with the population of California but the geographical extent of the lower 48 states is a recipe for success on that. Suspect the second business plan that is said to be circulating that is less "pie-in-the-sky" will be more like the USL's and probably involves close cooperation with it. 

[Complete Homer]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's easy to talk the talk about being D1 like the NASL did, but a lot harder to walk the walk. Not sure why so many people on this thread are so confident that limiting a league to an area with the population of California but the geographical extent of the lower 48 states is a recipe for success on that. Suspect the second business plan that is said to be circulating that is less "pie-in-the-sky" will be more like the USL's and probably involves close cooperation with it. 

Not saying that Rollins' word is gold, but he has spoken repeatedly about sources "from CFL ownership" (likely the Ticats) and within the CSA (also in the practical "group 2"). He also stated that there's next to zero chance CPL will be playing TFC II,  VWC II, or FC Montreal. If there was a USL component, it would seem to be along the lines of splitting USL in USL1 and USL2, which is apparently on the table but as a long term development, not something that will arrive by 2018

CSA and USSF aren't looking friendly right now, I doubt they would be interested in restructuring their D3 (likely soon D2) league for our benefit. That seems pretty "pie-in-the-sky" to me. 

As to making the comparison to NASL (funny how some people's favoured route of expansion via USSF a couple months ago is now the standard for failure ;)), they tried to compete with an MLS that was actively adding teams in their country (not happening in Canada), attempted rapid expansion with poor vetting to hit D1 requirements (apparently not happening with CPL), let a small minority of owners spend the rest of the league to death (while CPL has a cap of 1.5 million from what has been posted), ignored the safety of single entity (again apparently not happening), and finally, it is clear the USSF never wanted NASL to be D1 (while CPL is being actively supported by the CSA). The leagues two are very different 

[Gopherbashi]

7 hours ago, matty said:

We all know the team will have some kind of Drake reference....just kidding. I think they'll go for something that mixes a traditional FC or AFC with a traditional North American sporting name like Toronto Lakers AFC or something (hopefully not that).

WELCOME TO THE SIX yard box

[mpg_29]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

glitch post

[Kent]

8 hours ago, matty said:

We all know the team will have some kind of Drake reference....just kidding. I think they'll go for something that mixes a traditional FC or AFC with a traditional North American sporting name like Toronto Lakers AFC or something (hopefully not that).

6FC. It'll be confusing if 6FC plays in a league with 6 football clubs.

[TRM]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

As to making the comparison to NASL (funny how some people's favoured route of expansion via USSF a couple months ago is now the standard for failure ;)), they tried to compete with an MLS that was actively adding teams in their country (not happening in Canada),

Because MLS already has the 3 largest markets and close to half the population covered? What is left to expand to in Canada? Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa are the only 1 million plus cities left. Lots of 2 million plus sized cities in the US with good support for D2/D3 teams already and owners ready with the expansion fee. 

I'd love to see 3 more Canadian cities in the top league in North America but we have a lot of work to get to the same level already present in several US cities.

[ironcub14]

I saw an interesting convo between two V buddies of ours, Rob N and Dallas, whats up guys, and a couple other guys I know online like Steve S and GarMc, and how Dallas had talked to a number of ESG guys about the Eddies possibly moving from NASL to CPL, and the negative initial reaction that some or many of them had. He said that the biggest reason for the opposition from these supporters was their perceived view of the quality of football in a CPL, that it would possibly be USL or even PDL quality.

Just based on some of the convos I've had here in the thread, I thought there were a couple good points that some of you had made that eventually turned my mood from one of slight pessimism to one of cautious optimism about the quality of play that a CPL could have. And I think these are good points that, if you explained it carefully to people, would shift their perception of what a CPL could look like on-field, or at least more open for consideration.

1) The obvious one, that we are talking about some seriously big money groups, who are well-prepared to both weather any storms and to be able to put out rosters that are more in between MLS and NASL quality, rather than between NASL and USL quality, or worse

2) The distinct possibility that Toronto is in play for an independent CPL side and that the owner of a footy club as big as Maccabi Tel Aviv lives in North York. I had never known that. And speaking without trying to be biased at all, I think many of us would agree that you need at least one of the big 3 markets in CPL, with Toronto being the likeliest option, for the CPL to gain greater legitimacy among casual footy fans

3) The (sad) possibility that NASL might lose its D2 sanctioning this week, or worse, and the fact that there would be quite a bit of turmoil and turbulence in player movements in NASL and USL over the next year or two, which (sadly) could work out in favour of a CPL player pool, both domestics and internationals. This was a good article from yesterday that broke it down in greater detail.

http://midfieldpress.com/2016/09/22/the-domino-effect-how-lower-division-soccer-is-falling-down/

4) The distinct possibility of a successful World Cup 2026 bid, and what that could mean for footy in Canada

[Complete Homer]

19 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I saw an interesting convo between two V buddies of ours, Rob N and Dallas, whats up guys, and a couple other guys I know online like Steve S and GarMc, and how Dallas had talked to a number of ESG guys about the Eddies possibly moving from NASL to CPL, and the negative initial reaction that some or many of them had. He said that the biggest reason for the opposition from these supporters was their perceived view of the quality of football in a CPL, that it would possibly be USL or even PDL quality.

Just based on some of the convos I've had here in the thread, I thought there were a couple good points that some of you had made that eventually turned my mood from one of slight pessimism to one of cautious optimism about the quality of play that a CPL could have. And I think these are good points that, if you explained it carefully to people, would shift their perception of what a CPL could look like on-field, or at least more open for consideration.

1) The obvious one, that we are talking about some seriously big money groups, who are well-prepared to both weather any storms and to be able to put out rosters that are more in between MLS and NASL quality, rather than between NASL and USL quality, or worse

2) The distinct possibility that Toronto is in play for an independent CPL side and that the owner of a footy club as big as Maccabi Tel Aviv lives in North York. I had never known that. And speaking without trying to be biased at all, I think many of us would agree that you need at least one of the big 3 markets in CPL, with Toronto being the likeliest option, for the CPL to gain greater legitimacy among casual footy fans

3) The (sad) possibility that NASL might lose its D2 sanctioning this week, or worse, and the fact that there would be quite a bit of turmoil and turbulence in player movements in NASL and USL over the next year or two, which (sadly) could work out in favour of a CPL player pool, both domestics and internationals. This was a good article from yesterday that broke it down in greater detail.

http://midfieldpress.com/2016/09/22/the-domino-effect-how-lower-division-soccer-is-falling-down/

The key is the domestic quota. If it's guns blazing, 75% quota, then they are right. If it's 30% with an escalation timetable, a 1.5M cap gives a 60k average over a 25 man roster, which is way higher than USL and would allow for enough decent Canadians and internationals to float the league's quality as the pool grows (primarily by MLS academy graduates at first, with CPL academies contributing later) .

We don't yet know what kind of quota they are setting, but if the expected cap is still 1.5M it would be dumb to start so high, as you would be overpaying players massively 

[ironcub14]

39 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

The key is the domestic quota. If it's guns blazing, 75% quota, then they are right. If it's 30% with an escalation timetable, a 1.5M cap gives a 60k average over a 25 man roster, which is way higher than USL and would allow for enough decent Canadians and internationals to float the league's quality as the pool grows (primarily by MLS academy graduates at first, with CPL academies contributing later) .

We don't yet know what kind of quota they are setting, but if the expected cap is still 1.5M it would be dumb to start so high, as you would be overpaying players massively 

Definitely, and I think based on the sentiment I had seen even on this thread, that for the quota, that most here are comfortable with the latter option, something around 30% and escalating. And makes sense in a number of different ways.

And I agree that that is an additional point worth mentioning when discussing the merits of CPL to a fence-sitter or a pessimist, that most of us would expect a low quota to start off with.

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

Because MLS already has the 3 largest markets and close to half the population covered? What is left to expand to in Canada? Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa are the only 1 million plus cities left. Lots of 2 million plus sized cities in the US with good support for D2/D3 teams already and owners ready with the expansion fee. 

I'd love to see 3 more Canadian cities in the top league in North America but we have a lot of work to get to the same level already present in several US cities.

That's my point. NASL would probably have survived if its better franchises didn't keep getting picked off my MLS. That, like many of the factors contributing to NASL's likely demise, won't be present for CPL. I was just pointing out the false equivalence 

[Ansem]

Anyone gets the feeling if down the road the 3 MLS clubs becomes a barrier to CPL or it`s viability, CSA could evict MLS from the 3 cities so that CPL has sole monopoly in Canada?

I think as long as

• the 2 Toronto teams can thrive and co-exist
• A Surrey team can be founded and co-exist with the Whitecaps
• A Montreal team is Implemented and working
• MLS doesn't oversteps its boundaries and challenge CPL outside the 3 markets

They could coexist, but down the road, CPL will need to be present in the 3 markets.

 

 

 

[Complete Homer]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Anyone gets the feeling if down the road the 3 MLS clubs becomes a barrier to CPL or it`s viability, CSA could evict MLS from the 3 cities so that CPL has sole monopoly in Canada?

I think as long as

• the 2 Toronto teams can thrive and co-exist
• A Surrey team can be founded and co-exist with the Whitecaps
• A Montreal team is Implemented and working
• MLS doesn't oversteps its boundaries and challenge CPL outside the 3 markets

They could coexist, but down the road, CPL will need to be present in the 3 markets.

 

 

 

Doing anything antagonistic to the MLS clubs is in no one's interest (outside a little arm twisting on domestic spots). It would be a lost path to a top league that has an ever increasing trajectory and 3 high end academies with very good facilities. It would result in a legal battle that I won't bother arguing who would win, because we are all making uninformed arguments on that point. It would mean the loss of the most iconic teams in the country, hurting grassroots interest in Canadian soccer. 

So let's put that idea out of our mind. 

Now, I don't think the MLS teams are going to be able to be an insurmountable barrier for the league. Why? 

-The goals are different. While arguments of the break even point have ranged from 5k to 10k, we can all agree that the break even point is a lot lower for this league than MLS (which are also not yet breaking even, apparently).  

-As it is single entity, no one particular market can fail unless both the franchise operator leaves and the league does not assume ownership. If a couple markets struggle, that's OK, that is what the structure is for. If a GTA team initially struggles for attendance, it can be floated by more successful launch franchises. 

- The MLS markets are big. It doesn't take a business degree to realize that attracting a small slice of a big pie can be better than attracting a huge slice of a small pie. If a GTA team can only generate a fraction of city-wide interest than a Hamilton team, that could still mean 5k attendees, simply because of the enormity of Toronto itself. 

- The ownership groups. These are supposedly big names with deep pockets and experience in sports markets, they aren't just passionate but misguided fans. Bob Young knows how to work his market (and swings a big stick with TSN), the Flames know how to work their market, etc. If we are looking at Goldhar as a GTA owner, if he chooses he could easily go toe-to-toe with TFC level marketing, and imagine CPL merchandising available at every Walmart in Canada? While there hasn't been any solid rumours about Vancouver, a guy like Aquilani could bury the Whitecaps in marketing capabilities. Unless Rollins et al are completely bullshiting about billionaire ownership groups (possible but unlikely that everyone is lying and torpedoing their reputation over a short term story), we aren't dealing with small players that are completely dwarfed by Lenarduzzi or MLSE

- Antagonism between the league's won't last forever. Sure the first five or ten years may be uneasy, but I really do think amicable relations will emerge. While it might not be extremely obvious at the outset, I think CPL could actually drive more revenue for the MLS teams long term by increasing the sport's overall popularity. If the MLS accepts a slightly smaller piece of a much larger pie, they benefit, and can remain the top attraction as the premium product in the Canadian landscape. If that is true, the day may come where they aren't interested in eliminating the "competition" 

[Ansem]

A note on Montreal:

I had discussions with friends in Montreal and they are of the opposite opinion that a CPL Montreal team could indeed work based on theses factors:

• Location: CPL stadium MUST be downtown, and ideally use the McGill Percival Molson stadium or build a new one. The Saputo stadium where the Impact plays right now is in Eastern Montreal, next to the Olympic Stadium on the green subway line. It`s not the most ideal place for people to get there, and quite frankly, I always thought it was an odd location to pick.

Montreal Impact

Potential downtown CPL venue

Downtown has 3 metro lines providing links to South shore, downtown business area and literally the heart of the city, making this location very convenient to just hop on the metro and go see a game.

Percival Molson Stadium of McGill University on the mountain: Perfect for TV

25 000 seats

 

• Establishing a rivalry right away : What`s hotter than a Toronto-Montreal rivalry? In hockey, it`s Boston-Montreal but hey, the MLS did such a poor job in replicating this rivalry in soccer that no one even notices the New England Revolution. So we have Toronto and now Ottawa in hockey. This is where CPL can shine and since we`re all Canadians, they surely get it where MLS doesn`t. Regular Quebec City vs Montreal CPL are automatic sellouts! The hate between those cities transcends sports and a CPL Quebec City playing against a CPL Montreal downtown team would create instant magic. Those 2 teams due to the local politics would try their best to develop elite Quebec players, preferably locally and go at it like it`s war.
• Local content: Quebec being the most nationalistic province in the country, local stars like Patrice Bernier (seeing less minutes) and Olivier Occean would instantly make the team loved by the locals. Drogba is gone after this year and Impact are going more and more after Italians and South America outside of the Americans they have on the team. Where it`s hard to give minutes to Quebec players on the team, a Montreal CPL would most likely start them.
• TV Contract: A Quebec City team would most likely be covered by Quebecor`s TVA sports who are already covering the Montreal Impact. I could see their rival RDS going after the CPL Montreal team and by default trying to outbid each other for the rights to CPL as a whole. TSN would be interested to broadcast CPL Montreal for West Island English Viewers. That`s a good thing for the league.
• Ownership: Quebecor for Quebec City or the Montreal Canadiens & Molson Family for CPL Montreal?

So in conclusion, I got convinced last night that a downtown CPL Montreal team with a rivalry with Quebec City and Ottawa would indeed work. Montreal Metro area is half the province of Quebec, so there`s definitely room for another team.

So now that we all agree that CPL Toronto can work, and hopefully I made good arguments for a CPL Montreal, can someone from BC make the case for Surrey?

Thank you