Canadian Premier League

[BrennanFan]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

We can`t call CPL a myth anymore, MLSE meeting the CSA and MLS talking about it are clues that it`s legit.

So either FuryFanatic is full of shit, he's totally out of the loop, someone lied to him, or the Fury has been kept out of the loop by the CSA altogether.  

I do believe that the process is ongoing and developing well, but read the article, if you read that article in July 2001 you'd think everything was pretty much set, and how did that go?

If a similar article gets released tomorrow, we'd all be celebrating in the streets, but really, nothing means anything until a ball is kicked.  

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Macksam said:

Ottawa's MLS bid back in 09 revolved around building a stadium and entertainment complex next to the hockey arena in Kanata with the main objective being to turn the whole area into party area. However, now that he wants to head to LeBreton Flats, he might consider the idea to build a soccer stadium there. However, I doubt it. The MLS bid was centered around developing the Kanata area and solidifying the Senstors position there.

They obviously saw the light...nothing beats downtown next to all the government buildings, parliament, business and well, where the money truly is.

Location, location, location

[Complete Homer]

2 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

So either FuryFanatic is full of shit, he's totally out of the loop, someone lied to him, or the Fury has been kept out of the loop by the CSA altogether.  

I do believe that the process is ongoing and developing well, but read the article, if you read that article in July 2001 you'd think everything was pretty much set, and how did that go?

If a similar article gets released tomorrow, we'd all be celebrating in the streets, but really, nothing means anything until a ball is kicked.  

It's also a very different CSA today. I used to not bother taking anything out the CSA's mouth seriously. Montagliani has turned it around, at least in appearance.

[Ansem]

12 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

His deep pockets have taken a great many hits in recent years. First off, the Sens, in part due to their location, are not the most profitable team (they lose something around 10mil per year). Second, his pharmaceutical company, previously named Trimel but recently changed to Acerus, hasn't reported a profit in the last 5 years. As part of that, Melnyk is no longer a billionaire, more likely having hundreds of millions, though it's uncertain because he also recently got divorced.

The whole LeBreton Flats plan includes him, of course, but it's not like he's reaching into his pockets to pay for it. For one thing, there's a number of developers involved in his bid, all of whom also are contributing money to the project, but more likely they'll all be taking out loans in order to pay up front with the expectation that they'll then be able to make the money back selling condos and the like. 

Furthermore, Melnyk likes to meddle and is a terrible owner. If you've followed the Sens at all, you'll know they've had numerous coaches (since he bought the team in 2003, they've had 7 different coaches, only one of whom has been given 3 full seasons), he's been extremely cheap for years (their star player, Erik Karlsson, called them a 'budget team' last year), he's not exactly a great person (he attacked the previous coaching staff for playing a young goalie at the start of the year, which obviously must make that goalie feel welcome in Ottawa), nor is he particularly stable (anyone remember when he started a "forensic investigation" into whether or not Matt Cooke intentionally cut Karlsson's achilles?). 

As for the stadium, TD place has a deal with OSEG, I can't see them being particularly happy if Melnyk gets to boot them out (especially when the other two teams that play there, the 67s and the RedBlacks, are also OSEG teams), and there's no room in the Lebreton Flats plan for a 2nd stadium - the arena won't even be ready for another 6+ years anyway.

So in summary: Melnyk is a terrible owner who isn't as wealthy as you might think and I don't want him anywhere near Ottawa's professional soccer.

Seems to me like he got richer...

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/rich-100-eugene-melnyk/

Name: Eugene Melnyk

Net Worth (2016): $1.25 billion

Rich 100 Rank (2016): #74

Change from 2015: +5%

Age: 56

Major company holdings: Acerus Pharmaceuticals, Ottawa Senators

Eugene Melnyk is perhaps best known as the owner of the Ottawa Senators, but his weath comes from the pharmaceutical sector. Melnyk was an innovator in the field of building a company to utilize tax advantages: He personally moved to Barbados and set up many company operations there, including an arm that owned intellectual property and coordinated global R&D. But in recent years, he’s campaigned against the tax structure of Valeant Pharmaceuticals, which merged with Biovail in 2010, allowing it to benefit from lower Canadian tax rates.

 

Again, I`d rather have this owner instead of the OSEG group if I was the CSA.

 

I`ll even throw a joke: Seems like among the select billionaire club nowadays, you ain`t cool if you don`t own your own football team :-)

 

[Complete Homer]

^His company Biovail merged with Valeant (meaning he got quite a few shares in Valeant back) in 2014, and Valeant soared from ~$30/share to $300/share. It has crashed down to prices simiilar to before the spike, but I assume he made a tidy profit in the meantime.

Still not jumping up and down unless we hear something about alternative Ottawa ownership groups. 

[Viruk42]

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Again, I`d rather have this owner instead of the OSEG group if I was the CSA.

It depends on what they're looking for. Do they want the guy who may have the deepest pockets (even though his pride and joy hockey team has been run on the cheap for 10 years, and he recently sold his ~500 racing and breeding horses to raise money) and is clearly not the most stable (semi-intentional horse pun) owner or the dependable guys who already have a team, staff, stadium deal, and all the other necessary pieces to run a successful soccer team.

FFS, Melnyk may have money but he has literally NOTHING else going for him.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

It depends on what they're looking for. Do they want the guy who may have the deepest pockets (even though his pride and joy hockey team has been run on the cheap for 10 years, and he recently sold his ~500 racing and breeding horses to raise money) and is clearly not the most stable (semi-intentional horse pun) owner or the dependable guys who already have a team, staff, stadium deal, and all the other necessary pieces to run a successful soccer team.

FFS, Melnyk may have money but he has literally NOTHING else going for him.

I`ll pick the deep pocket owner who can go through the growing pains (and Melnyk has a history of doing so for the Senators), than a group rumored to close it`s academy and going to USL. Personally

In the North American sport business, Melnyk makes more sense. He has a track record with the NHL and the money to back it up.

Regarding the Senators going on the cheap, they`ve eliminated the Habs during the playoffs (Habs had hit the cap) and made it to the Stanley Cup finals. I get that some in Ottawa might dislike him but perhaps he`s OCD about efficiency and you can`t argue that the Sens had better results than the Leafs, Flames, Oilers most of the time while spending less.

Just my 2 cents on the matter

 

[Complete Homer]

Toronto FC announce affiliation with FC London. "Toronto FC is not just the GTA's team, but it is Ontario's team"

Them fighting words

[Gordon]

16 hours ago, TRM said:

Yes it took more than 15 years from inception to lift off for MLS and it nearly folded along the way at least once. They had some competition but they crushed USL D1 and have taken (and will continue to take) the best markets from NASL until it too ceases to be relevant. MLS is no longer the startup league. They are the elephant in the living room. Ignore it at your peril.

This isn't 1994 or 2004. There is no serious competition for the best players in North America from non-MLS team

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Toronto FC announce affiliation with FC London. "Toronto FC is not just the GTA's team, but it is Ontario's team"

Them fighting words

FC London would be a good fit for D3 division and a good test for London to test if they could one day get a CPL franchise.

TFC being Ontario`s team? I beg to differ...

[Gopherbashi]

4 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Toronto FC announce affiliation with FC London. "Toronto FC is not just the GTA's team, but it is Ontario's team"

Them fighting words

I can see it now: by 2020, every team in L1O will be "(City Name) TFC"

[Gordon]

In all honesty - if heavy hitters are indeed involved I would not hesitate to advocate de-sanctioning the 3 MLS teams and taking the markets for the Canadian league. Of course, these are just rumours, so at this point I am still paying lip service to co-existing ?

[Dub Narcotic]

http://rebrn.com/re/german-th-division-club-sv-wilhelmshaven-just-defeated-fifa-in-t-2839317/

This 7th Division German club just defeated FIFA in German court. I forget who keep on posting here about FIFA having 'all the cards' but, here you go and they clearly don't and never did.

BTW, if the CPL was going to launch in 2018 we would be hearing publicly about clubs, stadiums, owners TV deals and hirings already in many markets. If the CSA spikes the Fury's move to USL and the club folds because of the D3 sanctioning ban I'll be furious.

 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I can see it now: by 2020, every team in L1O will be "(City Name) TFC"

Maybe that`s what they meant by `helping out`... a D3 TFC league LOL. In all seriousness, if they want to create more academies and teams in lower divisions, they are to be congratulated.

[Gopherbashi]

20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Maybe that`s what they meant by `helping out`... a D3 TFC league LOL. In all seriousness, if they want to create more academies and teams in lower divisions, they are to be congratulated.

We're all misinterpreting this news about the OFFC Academy not playing in PLSQ next year.

Ottawa TFC to L1O confirmed.

[-Hammer-]

35 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

http://rebrn.com/re/german-th-division-club-sv-wilhelmshaven-just-defeated-fifa-in-t-2839317/

This 7th Division German club just defeated FIFA in German court. I forget who keep on posting here about FIFA having 'all the cards' but, here you go and they clearly don't and never did.

BTW, if the CPL was going to launch in 2018 we would be hearing publicly about clubs, stadiums, owners TV deals and hirings already in many markets. If the CSA spikes the Fury's move to USL and the club folds because of the D3 sanctioning ban I'll be furious.

 

Kinda a different set of circumstances. The EU and local courts in Germany have explicit laws governing soccer and league play. In this case here, according to the EU, there can't be any restrictions on European player movement, and because one of the players was technically an Italian with a passport (despite having trained in Brazil) punishing the club for failing to pay Brazil training costs (as FIFA's statures tend to demand) is a form of restriction on Italian movement.

The US doesn't, but has it's own peculiar labor, foreign business and immigration laws which FIFA deals with the best they can and gives leeway to, because the US is a huge emerging market.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Just to put the whole pro/rel discussion to bed.  

I know @reme90's been banging that drum and I think we are all at least in agreement that that would be amazing.

What it really comes down to is population density though.

The average population density of western european countries is roughly 100-300people /km^2

The average population density of South america is a little lower, roughly 20-40 people/ km^2

How about Africa?  It varies from about 30-600.  Still fairly high.

US of A?  Yes they have a huge population, but still fairly low at 30ish

Canada.  We're 3/ km^2.  3.  Grant you, 90% of those are within 100km of the border, and that's probably quite a bit higher in southern Ontario.  

But we aren't talking about a southern Ontario Soccer league.  

Now, in 100 years, when Florida is underwater, the Ice caps have melted, and I can grow watermelon in my backyard in Whitehorse, maybe we'll have the population density to support 100 teams.  But it's just not realistic right now.  

And you know it's unrealistic when I'm saying it.  I've been arguably the most pie-in-the-sky poster since I came on here.  And we haven't even touched on the fact that North America has 4 other major sports!  like come on dude give it a rest.  We gotta all get on the same page and embrace what's coming.

[zen]

34 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Maybe that`s what they meant by `helping out`... a D3 TFC league LOL. In all seriousness, if they want to create more academies and teams in lower divisions, they are to be congratulated.

They are just partnered with London primarily for player development, but also to stop Vancouver from establishing it's own academy affiliates all over southern Ontario like they are doing everywhere else.

I don't think it's a good idea for the CSA to allow these partnerships, teams should be independently developing and competing for talent. With the CPL it's crucial that teams like Hamilton and the other Toronto teams have equal opportunities to sign players in southern Ontario, likewise with other CPL teams and the rest of Canada. I feel like this agreement probably gives TFC right of first refusal, which I can't agree with. And I'm a TFC fan lol.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

They are just partnered with London primarily for player development, but also to stop Vancouver from establishing it's own academy affiliates all over southern Ontario like they are doing everywhere else.

I don't think it's a good idea for the CSA to allow these partnerships, teams should be independently developing and competing for talent. With the CPL it's crucial that teams like Hamilton and the other Toronto teams have equal opportunities to sign players in southern Ontario, likewise with other CPL teams and the rest of Canada.

I don't see it as a problem for TFC so have a relationship with a club like London(should they eventually get a CPL team).  Like don't we see this kind of thing all the in Europe?  They aren't official farm clubs but certain high profile teams will have good relationships with certain lower clubs, one sorta helps one find/develop talented players, and the other helps the smaller one financially?  But they are still separate?  Or am I out to lunch?

[ironcub14]

2 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

@ironcub14 Re. USL involvement in CPL, consider the following:

The CPL project has been in the works in its present form since 2014, and really even earlier than that, and during this long consultation period the CSA has considered multiple options, including partnering with NASL.  The consultation period is now over.  "Apparently" the hold up was to see if they could launch with the NASL teams.  Toronto has always been seen as a required market, so the fact that recently Montagliani stated they are moving onto the second phase of development, that the rumour of the "billionaire Toronto owner" was leaked, and the fact that suddenly MLSE wants in, all suggest that the blueprint of the league and the ownership groups including Toronto are now set and ready to go forward.

The CSA and the USSF are at odds right now over the MLS domestic quota issue, to the point of the desanctioning threat being made in the Guardian article, so the likelihood of further cooperation between the two bodies is at an all time low.

The rumoured ownership groups that have been secured but have not yet been announced due to confidentiality agreements in the negotiating processes are well above and beyond the level of the USL owners.  We are talking about NHL level deep pocket owners. This on its own should give you an expectation of what kind of league the CSA is aiming for.

Montagliani has stated several times they are planning a MLS based league central ownership model.  This necessitates the league having full control of everything, and not partnering with another league.  Similarly, Vic Mont has stated many times that the league will focus on developing and selling players in order to create revenue for the league itself through the above mentioned central ownership - again this requires having full control of the league and not partnering with other leagues or having MLS affiliate clubs in the league.     

Your last paragraph, about selling players as a collective league through a centralized ownership, that's a great point that you point out would be difficult in a USL set-up, and I can't argue against that one at all.

And I see the money argument as well; even in the worst-case scenario, the level of wealth each individual ownership groups has should be able to put out NASL-level rosters, and that the owners are willing and quite easily capable of riding it out through any attendance difficulties there may be. Basically, that we will have at least 8 Lamar Hunt's and Phil Anschutz's.

I am back to being cautiously optimistic about CPL at this point. I did read the CBC article from 2001 on a CUSL just now though, and I see exactly what you mean, that even a CBC article by Neil Davidson that seemed to promise everything was going to happen somehow fizzled out. I don't know much at all about the CUSL, could anybody enlighten me on what exactly sputtered off after this article was published? 

Lastly, regarding the Fury, I can easily see a CPL being pushed back to 2019 or 2020, and with NASL possibly sinking, I think it's quite natural, and quite in CSA's interest, to sanction the Fury for the time being in what may very soon be a D2 league, until the CPL truly becomes a living on-product field in front of our eyes. 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I don't see it as a problem for TFC so have a relationship with a club like London(should they eventually get a CPL team).  Like don't we see this kind of thing all the in Europe?  They aren't official farm clubs but certain high profile teams will have good relationships with certain lower clubs, one sorta helps one find/develop talented players, and the other helps the smaller one financially?  But they are still separate?  Or am I out to lunch?

No you're right. I just think that granting TFC right of first refusal - which  I assume they would get with the agreement - over talent coming out of clubs prevents CPL teams from scouting and signing the same talent. Also teams in Europe only have good relationships to the extent that they share best practices and loan players. Right of first refusal as I'm worried is not very common, especially within the same country.

[-Hammer-]

I think if you are the CSA, you sanction the Fury with the same quota requirements as the other USL teams and make if very clear. Like press release clear "This is a temporary sanctioning, reviewed every year and will terminate the second Canada has a pro league"

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Just now, zen said:

No you're right. I just think that granting TFC right of first refusal - which  I assume they would get with ths agreement - over talent coming out of clubs prevents CPL teams from scouting the same talent.

I mean, fair enough, but at the same time, realistically, even the most bullish of us on here and not expecting even the top CPL clubs to be able to compete with TFC(at least from a monetary sense).  So in that sense wouldn't they basically have first right of refusal anyways(or at least the three MLS clubs would) regardless of any official agreement.  If you're a young up and comer, if you have an offer from TFC or say.. Halifax CPL, 90% of the time they're going to sign with TFC anyways, right?  TFC is like our Real Madrid/Barca

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I mean, fair enough, but at the same time, realistically, even the most bullish of us on here and not expecting even the top CPL clubs to be able to compete with TFC(at least from a monetary sense).  So in that sense wouldn't they basically have first right of refusal anyways(or at least the three MLS clubs would) regardless of any official agreement.  If you're a young up and comer, if you have an offer from TFC or say.. Halifax CPL, 90% of the time they're going to sign with TFC anyways, right?  TFC is like our Real Madrid/Barca

TFC will sign them and loan them right back to CPL.  That`s most likely to happen. Something else to consider, with TFC you might barely get any minutes at the bottom salary range, and that`s if they don`t ship you to TFC2.

The CPL club is more likely to start you and you get to prove your worth. If you`re that good, MLS and others will notice you.

You have better odds at getting better in CPL by starting often and playing lots of minutes than MLS where you either play at TFC2 or get 2 subs of 10 minutes a season.

But we`re getting ahead of ourselves, they haven`t opened academies throughout Ontario yet

[Gopherbashi]

For those who oppose the idea of the CPL in favour of American leagues, I have a question (a legitimate one, not a trolling or gotcha question).

Should the Fury sit out next season (which seems increasingly likely), does that affect your view on having Canadian pro teams play in American D2 leagues?  Consensus seems to be that OFFC was fairly well-managed and a good example to follow... yet even that appears to not be enough.  Do you see any hope that other Canadian teams could thrive in the same system?  Could OFFC & OSEG have done anything better to allow the team to move past a three-year lifespan?