Ranking our Goalkeepers

[jpg75]

NASL still hasn't seen anywhere near the number of call ups and, correct me if I'm wrong, with the exception of Hungary, i don't believe any of the UEFA nations you listed are calling up domestic players at the same rate Finland is

I would say 5-10K is significant when you look at the value of both leagues. With a similar number of teams (12 fin, 11 nasl) and players (296 fin, 287 nasl) the leagues have an difference of an estimated player value of nearly 14.5m Euro.

NASL will never call up as many internationals because it is a SECOND division, it is at an inherent disadvantage relative to the domestic 1st division of any nation you are comparing it to. 

Albania have called up 10 domestic players within the last year. Albania is ranked higher than Finland, therefore Albania 1st division is stronger than Finland 1st division. See what i did there? 

Estimated valuations, 10% difference in pay etc. you are using imprecise measures. Do you think MLS is more than twice as strong than the Chilean 1st division? (here's a hint, they are similar in strength). DO you think the English Championship is twice as strong as the Mexican Primera? Of course not!

https://www.football.com/en/what-is-the-average-player-salary-in-top-football-leagues/

Best thing to do is actually watch games from both leagues (like i have), then come back to me and argue your case.

[matty]

NASL will never call up as many internationals because it is a SECOND division, it is at an inherent disadvantage relative to the domestic 1st division of any nation you are comparing it to. 

Albania have called up 10 domestic players within the last year. Albania is ranked higher than Finland, therefore Albania 1st division is stronger than Finland 1st division. See what i did there? 

Estimated valuations, 10% difference in pay etc. you are using imprecise measures. Do you think MLS is more than twice as strong than the Chilean 1st division? (here's a hint, they are similar in strength). DO you think the English Championship is twice as strong as the Mexican Primera? Of course not!

https://www.football.com/en/what-is-the-average-player-salary-in-top-football-leagues/

Best thing to do is actually watch games from both leagues (like i have), then come back to me and argue your case.

Thanks for the point on Albania calling up a decent amount of players, as I said I wasn't sure. Comaring the two, it still appears Finland has greater trust in players in it's league than Albania does as Finland has let players based in Finland U30 play in 57 games compaered to Albania's 16 times. Also 3 of Albania's have never actually played for the national team while only one of Finland's domestics has yet to play. Also when was the last time an Albania team reached a European competition group stage? Because a Finnish team played in one last season.

While you can say the NASL is hurt by being a second division for Canadians behind the MLS, you should note that Canadians have played a total of 20,406 minutes in the NASL compared to 18,399 minutes in MLS. For a team that's desperate for players to get minutes with clubs, we sure don't call on those NASL guys all that much. If the NASL was similar to Finland's league in terms of level of play than surely we'd make use of it like they do with their league

And I'm sorry the Chile/MLS comparison on pay is a bad one. MLS, ISL and CSL comparisons to leagues like Chile when it comes to pay are invalid as those leagues involve a massive difference in player pay with 1-3 guys per team making upwards of $10m a season while a teammate is making $40k, it's not like that in Chile where salaries between players are more even like Finland. That said MLS, ISL and CSL are better than Finland.

The NASL also largely sees players paid similar wages when you exclude stars.

Also comparing LigaMX to the Championship is rather unfair. The Championship is a stronger league at the top but Mexico has a more well rounded league.

I do watch and I also read. You said the NASL = Finland's Top flight. I said it didn't because the league A) Produces international players, B ) Offers better pay and C) Has a higher estimated player value than the NASL does by nearly 15million Euro.

[Guest]

 

And my comment agrees with that.  I'm talking about the general level... for instance if you take Bradley and Altidore out of TFC for international duty and Giovinco is injured, what are you left with?  A League One/Two side and the majority of the time that's what you see on the pitch.  I can't count many times when I've watched a Championship level TFC side compete.  You can't just go on starting XIs assuming everyone is healthy all the time and that's the major fault of MLS.  They want you to believe they are knocking on the door of EPL quality but in reality it's League One/Championship level because of the structure and rules.

 

The league needs to build some real depth and then we can talk about it being Championship level consistently (in the playoffs, yes I would agree it is Championship level.. the playoffs are great quality).  For instance QPR at the moment are a mid table Championship side, but there is no chance that a MLS team would have Hoilett out of it's 18.  

Also look at MLS players who are considered regulars.  Look at our players for instance who feature regularly... Lefevre, Teibert, Bernier, Osorio, Akindele.. I'd like to believe they could play Championship ball but seriously doubt it, they would be League One players (as I said in another thread maybe one of them could play Championship).  And vice versa a guy like David Edgar would be a "star" defender in MLS.  Outside of Larin and Johnson I couldn't tell you a Canadian that would be purchased by a Championship club (EPL in the case of Larin due to his age)... and I always rated Henry on these boards and he was sold to an EPL club and has played Championship ball at a young age. There are few players who can do it, England is a tough place where you need to be special.  

Aha i took back my statement a minute after it was posted. I realized my error.

[Grizzly]

 Also when was the last time an Albania team reached a European competition group stage?

This current year. KF Skënderbeu Korçë is in the Europa League group stage. 

Also your salary comparisons ignore some key facts two notable ones being:

1) Finland is one of the most expensive countries in the world to live, prices are very high and so are salaries. There are many professions where the Finnish person would make a higher salary than the Canadian in a similar job without necessarily being better at his profession.

2) NASL has access to a large market of trapped workers. Finnish players can play anywhere in Europe giving them a large range of better paying leagues to choose from. Most North American players are stuck playing in US and/or Canada unless they have connections and can get often difficult to obtain work permits. That lowers the salaries here as there is a large pool of players who can not play elsewhere.  

 

[tarnado1555362291]

1. Borjan

2. Stamatopoulos

3. Chencinski

4. Thomas

5. Hirschfeld

6. Becic

7. Smits

8. Roberts

9. Crepeau

 

 

If Leutwiler ever joined the program I think he would be pushing Kenny and for sure in our top 3 above Chencinski.

[Fussball_eh]

1. Borjan

2. Stamatopoulos

3. Chencinski

4. Thomas

5. Hirschfeld

6. Becic

7. Smits

8. Roberts

9. Crepeau

 

 

If Leutwiler ever joined the program I think he would be pushing Kenny and for sure in our top 3 above Chencinski.

I agree with this assessment. 

[Grizzly]

If getting called in as a 3rd keeper with very little chance of playing I have no problem with calling Thomas (who I would rate over Chechinski). If it is in WCQ and there is a chance of playing I think the veteran Hirschfeld with his experience even if he is not playing needs to be called in before keepers playing in lower level leagues like the Norwegian 2nd tier or Finnish 1st tier at least until one of these keepers makes it up to a better level. I would also choose Stama over Borjan at this point because while I think Borjan has a lot of potential to become a top keeper and has more natural skill than Stama, he also seems a lot more shaky and mistake prone at this point in his career. Keeper mistakes are what seems to kill Canada in competitions not lack of someone able to make fantastic saves so I would go with solid and dependable over spectacular but shaky. Also given Crepeau is ahead of Roberts on the U23 pecking order I don't see how he can be behind him on this list. And both of them based on their superior potential would probably be about equal on the list to the number of lower division keepers there. 

[shamrock]

At FCE, Smits has been surpassed by Tyson Farago who has been Van Oekels back-up most of the time. 

All in all an extremely shallow pool to pick from. And with Hirschfeld and Stama nearing retirement, it'll get even more shallow. Hope we'll see a couple of youngsters getting starts soon. 

[David C.]

1 - Comfortable starting:   Stamatopoulos and Borjan.

2 - Third keeper/bench/training:  Hirschfeld (possibly a month or so away from retirement), S. Thomas, Crepeau and Q. Roberts.

3 - All others are either too young/inexperienced or not really of international quality to consider at this time.

[BCM]

This list is depressing. Seriously, depressing. Yet I keep coming back to this thread. Oh to be a Canadian supporter.

[Fussball_eh]

This list is depressing. Seriously, depressing. Yet I keep coming back to this thread. Oh to be a Canadian supporter.

Jayson Leutwiler just needs to be cap-tied and then it already looks a lot better :-). Also, it's not that depressing. The keepers in Scandinavia are doing pretty well!

[Keegan]

Pretty depressing when you look at the Americans goalkeeping depth.  They have a constant pipeline of keepers coming through, although they don't seem to produce as many as they did at one point... maybe due to their technical development more of those athletes are choosing to play other positions.

Borjan is a really, really good keeper but he is too eccentric at times.  Without him we would look really poor... Stama is a decent backup option by we shouldn't be relying on a 36 year old backup in Scandinavia to be our national team starter.  I see that a lot of people call Stama "the safe" option but I honestly don't see it that way as I've seen him make mistakes just as poor as Borjan (i.e. El Salvador Gold Cup) but he just hasn't been punished, I think Borjan's ability to restart our attack and his shot stopping should see him remain our #1.

[David C.]

Although I am a huge Stamatopoulos fan, I was really surprised (disappointed kind of surprised) that Borjan didn't get the start (or at least a half) against Ghana. After finally getting a string of starts for his club, I figured that the Ghana match would allow the CMNT to work him back into our lineup, after having Kenny hold the fort (admirably) during the Gold Cup and September matches. The fact that Kenny started and played the whole game gave me the impression that he is the sole Number-1 in the coaching staff's eyes and Milan is the back-up. It wouldn't make sense to sit Borjan out, if they planned to start him in November.

[Fussball_eh]

The goalkeeping position is like the only position where the US can keep up (or even surpass in some instances) the rest of the world. It's not a fair comparison for tiny Canada ;-).

[Steedman]

Could Vancouvers David Ousted be an option, what is it, 4 years as a resident? He's only 30 and never had a Denmark call up.

[jpg75]

Could Vancouvers David Ousted be an option, what is it, 4 years as a resident? He's only 30 and never had a Denmark call up.

He signed with Vancouver in June 2013. He'd be FIFA eligible in June 2018 and would then need citizenship. Also, looks like he played a U19 game for Denmark in 2003. If it was an official youth match he would be automatically ineligible, a friendly i believe would leave the door open.

[shermanator]

This list is depressing because it shows that our promising keepers on Canadian clubs are just simply not being given the opportunity to take the ball and run with it. One could argue that at least Roberts, Smits and Crepeau are quality enough to get some starts at the MLS/NASL levels. Not arguing that they should be handed starting jobs, but they should at least be getting the odd start to show what they can do.

Consider Roberts. Has a great 2014 in USL. Toronto FC drafts a top ranked college keeper who immediately usurps the starting job at TFC II. Bono plays like crap, Roberts steps in and plays quite well. Does he get a shot at an actual start the first team next year, considering Bendik and Konopka's inconsistent play in 2015? I sincerely doubt he will.

Consider Smits. Has a great 2014 in NASL. Wins the Golden Glove award (which is also a reflection on the club's quality backline that year). FC Edmonton sign a top ranked NASL keeper who immediately usurps the starting job. Van Oekel makes many mistakes in the spring season and gets second chances. Smits makes some mistakes in the spring season and gets no second chance. Smits now is afraid to make a mistake and gets injured. Gets pushed down to third on the depth chart, as will almost for sure be released. Good reward for a solid season.

I also think Crepeau should be able to usurp Kronberg for the backup keeper job on the Impact. Will he? Doubt it.

Ousted and Peiser are top keepers in their respective leagues and I'm not going to try and argue that Carducci or deBellis should get starts ahead of them. But it means that they are stuck where they are with little chance to move up in the next few years.

The one bright note is Simon Thomas finally going somewhere where he can play consistent first team minutes. The Norweigan second division is probably not the highest level we would like our keepers to play, but really he's one of only 2 Canadian keepers who's got a starting spot on lockdown, and even then Borjan's top is probably more up for grabs.

[Shway]

He signed with Vancouver in June 2013. He'd be FIFA eligible in June 2018 and would then need citizenship. Also, looks like he played a U19 game for Denmark in 2003. If it was an official youth match he would be automatically ineligible, a friendly i believe would leave the door open.

What about Evan bush???? 

[jpg75]

What about Evan bush???? 

He will be eligible on March 11th, 2016 if he can get citizenship.

Not a goalie, but Hassoun Camara will be eligible on Feb. 7th, 2016 pending citizenship.

[shermanator]

Personally, I'm not a fan of naturalizing players like Evan Bush. Mostly because I don't think a keeper like Evan Bush offers much more than what we have in the system. What we need to do is have Canadian clubs actually play the keepers that are brought up through the academies. If they crash and burn? So be it. But they won't have the chance to succeed if they simply don't get starts. 

It needs to be said that American MLS clubs do a lot better job of giving their young or unproven GKs a shot at getting games with the first team than Canadian MLS clubs when they had much more experienced GKs ahead of them. 

Exhibit A: Jesse Gonzalez. This year at 20 years of age, he has taken the #1 keeper job over Dan Kennedy, who started most of the past 4 years at Chivas USA. Dallas is first in the Western Conference with a 20 year old keeper.

Exhibit B: Bill Hamid. In 2010 at 19 years of age, he made his first MLS start. Ahead of him was Troy Perkins, a previous MLS GK of the year, with 3 seasons in the Norweigan first division. Hamid shows well, gets a run of starts, and is now unseatable in goal for DC United, 

Exhibit C: Clint Irwin. In 2013, he got the #1 GK job despite having only appeared in 3 USL games and one year of PDL. Ahead of him was Matt Pickens, who was a starter for 5 years with Chicago and Colorado. Colorado is a gong show right now but I don't think Irwin is the source of their problems.

Why is it that these clubs have the balls to start an unproven keeper over keepers which are/were much more experienced than those at TFC or Montreal, but a guy like Chris Konopka (with 3 MLS starts at age 30) is holding down Quillan Roberts, despite mediocre play? Again, not arguing this for the Whitecaps as Ousted is a top keeper in MLS.

[Vince193]

Personally, I'm not a fan of naturalizing players like Evan Bush. Mostly because I don't think a keeper like Evan Bush offers much more than what we have in the system. What we need to do is have Canadian clubs actually play the keepers that are brought up through the academies. If they crash and burn? So be it. But they won't have the chance to succeed if they simply don't get starts. 

It needs to be said that American MLS clubs do a lot better job of giving their young or unproven GKs a shot at getting games with the first team than Canadian MLS clubs when they had much more experienced GKs ahead of them. 

Exhibit A: Jesse Gonzalez. This year at 20 years of age, he has taken the #1 keeper job over Dan Kennedy, who started most of the past 4 years at Chivas USA. Dallas is first in the Western Conference with a 20 year old keeper.

Exhibit B: Bill Hamid. In 2010 at 19 years of age, he made his first MLS start. Ahead of him was Troy Perkins, a previous MLS GK of the year, with 3 seasons in the Norweigan first division. Hamid shows well, gets a run of starts, and is now unseatable in goal for DC United, 

Exhibit C: Clint Irwin. In 2013, he got the #1 GK job despite having only appeared in 3 USL games and one year of PDL. Ahead of him was Matt Pickens, who was a starter for 5 years with Chicago and Colorado. Colorado is a gong show right now but I don't think Irwin is the source of their problems.

Why is it that these clubs have the balls to start an unproven keeper over keepers which are/were much more experienced than those at TFC or Montreal, but a guy like Chris Konopka (with 3 MLS starts at age 30) is holding down Quillan Roberts, despite mediocre play? Again, not arguing this for the Whitecaps as Ousted is a top keeper in MLS.

While I think Robinson doesn't care much for his Canadians, Ousted has been the best keeper in MLS this season. Q should have been given a shot however. I don't know why that hasn't happened.

[Dub Narcotic]

It's very difficult for a manger to give a young keeper a shot. Playing Carducci essentially cost Vancouver the Voyageurs Cup last year. However, Roberts was second in save percentage in USL and certainly should at least be the backup next year.

[Shway]

This is what needs to happen more often.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/ac-milan-hand-debut-16-6703394

[shermanator]

Absolutely. If one of the top clubs in the world has the confidence to do it, why can't any of the Canadian clubs? 

[Bison44]

Well for TFC it gets back to the annoying trend of throwing American journeymen out there instead of giving a CDN kid a real chance.  Seriously how can Roberts be any worse than Konopka or Bendik?  And why draft BONO when you have Roberts in the wings.  Seems like we go out of our way to pick up American "squad fillers" when we already have young CDNs fighting to get in.