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Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.


Dub Narcotic

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I've been considering this, the fact that it doesn't include all clubs is a good thing. This is a great way to ensure standards. Once the CPL has youth academies going, players that played for CPL youth academies or that sign their first contracts with CPL clubs should be included. There would still be a problem with it, i.e. a Pulisic type Canadian player would not be considered a domestic.

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This will be unpalatable to the Hamilton boys, but what happens if USL rebrands as CPL in a Canadian context and all of the teams have some sort of affiliation to one of the three MLS teams? If that sort of feeder league scenario doesn't happen, I think a standalone CPL mainly becomes the place where 22 and 23 year olds go after USL/MLS hasn't worked out for them or they didn't get picked up in the Entry Draft after a full ride NCAA scholarship and there probably would not be a strong emphasis on youth academies. Time will tell. A lot depends on how much money investors would be willing to throw at it and whether you are looking at FC Edmonton type operations or the second coming of the Nova Scotia Clippers.

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17 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Do you understand how Generation Adidas works? It's an active collaboration between the USSF and MLS to give elite youth level American players an opportunity to play anywhere in MLS. A Canadian Generation Adidas means that the CSA will be actively encouraging top CMNT prospects into MLS to emulate Cyle Larin's recent success. There's also this snippet:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/tfc/2016/11/30/tfc-gm-says-team-can-be-contender-for-years-to-come.html

...First, the two organizations will collaborate on a joint task force ― including representatives from the league, the national body and all three Canadian MLS team ― focused on creating new initiatives which will help youth development in the country, through academies, coaching, competitions and individualized player development...

I don't know what part of "USSF/MLS-CSA" experiment being a failure you don't seem to understand. Will that prevent American clubs from discriminating against Canadian domestics? Will that lead to more Canadians signing an MLS contract? Seems more like it will widen the pool of the "future D2" USL player pool at the expense of the CPL and their academies. Well, that's what their trying to do because CPL will still be more attractive than USL salary and playing time wise and give them a better opportunity at foreign leagues than being trapped in USL or benching in MLS. Seriously Garber, how stupid do you think Canadians are? If MLS was la Liga or EPL, it make sense, but it's the freaking MLS!!!!! What a joke, I was angry yesterday but I'm laughing this morning!

Why not grandfather Canadian International that graduated from MLS academies, then signed with MLS but now play internationally? Because of some bogus "legal issue". Not everyone is willing to be a doormat to our southern neighbour like you seem to be. Get it? "seems"

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That doesn't sound like the actions of a national soccer association that are just about to launch their own league as the pinacle of their development pyramid, because they reject MLS as a foreign intruder and see it as the enemy. It looks more like the actions of an association that cynically used the threat of moving in another direction to gain some leverage (and maybe Victor Montagliani actually does deserve some praise on that!).

First of all, you're overstretch your claim. I think the CSA is being smart and are trying to make the best of a bad situation. MLS contribution to the CanMNT program has been abysmal, a failure and insufficient, yet we still got a few gems out of it. Why would you stop that? Like most observers are already saying, it won't change much and the CSA might as well let MLS keep doing what they are doing and maybe producing a player here and there WHILE growing CPL. Why would you choose when you can have both?

Montagliani was right to make threats and remind the MLS what could potentially happen. It just shows how little they cared about Canada all those years when we were asking. The more CPL grows, the bigger the leverage. MLS just showed how much they don't want, (correction), how much they are scared to lose the big 3 markets. It took a de-sanction threat to make them blink.

35 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You can't trust the CSA to steer a steady path on something like this, so we could hear them singing a different tune next year at some point when CPL starts making its big push to put the six teams they need together for a 2018 launch, but if I were a would be investor in that and had been expecting full backing from the CSA as Canada's de jure D1, I would be asking WTF is going on right now.

CSA wants a successful program. CPL investors want to make money and grow the return of their investment. 2 different agendas with one common vision, the CPL which can satisfy both parties. But everyone know that the big 3 markets are needed to get CPL into the next level and that without them, the league will never go to the next level. You think investors don't know that???

How sure are you that the endgame isn't to acquire those markets when the time is right? How sure are you that this long term vision of having MLS grow the media attention in Canada to then hand over those markets to CPL isn't the long term plan? But you can't do that right now, nor say that. If we were Wales-UK or Puerto Rico-USA, hell, I'd agree 1000% with you. But you got to understand that you can't compare those to Canada-USA.

From a business point of view, it makes total sense to me to grow the game outside of the big 3 markets gradually where MLS isn't present. Let MLS do the marketing and grow soccer for you in the big 3 markets with their money. Once CPL peaks outside of those 3 cities, hand them over to CPL, but like I said many time, CPL has the burden to make that scenario possible.

No investor would be sitting at that table if the CSA pitched them that the league would never have the exclusivity of those 3 markets

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41 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This will be unpalatable to the Hamilton boys, but what happens if USL rebrands as CPL in a Canadian context and all of the teams have some sort of affiliation to one of the three MLS teams?

It won't

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If that sort of feeder league scenario doesn't happen, I think a standalone CPL mainly becomes the place where 22 and 23 year olds go after USL/MLS hasn't worked out for them or they didn't get picked up in the Entry Draft after a full ride NCAA scholarship and there probably would not be a strong emphasis on youth academies.

CPL would have higher pay than USL and they would be playing more minutes at a higher level, which increases their odds at being noticed by other leagues around the world including MLS if they develop into solid players. You can't develop by playing in USL or playing here and there in MLS.

No many will trap themselves in USL "hoping" for an MLS contracts when CPL will pay you better and give you minutes to play and opportunities to be scouted by other leagues. MLS isn't EPL.

45 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

A lot depends on how much money investors would be willing to throw at it and whether you are looking at FC Edmonton type operations or the second coming of the Nova Scotia Clippers.

Takes money to make money, business 101. There's money to be made in Canada in soccer, it's been made pretty clear recently.

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

 

CPL would have higher pay than USL and they would be playing more minutes at a higher level, which increases their odds at being noticed by other leagues around the world including MLS if they develop into solid players.

Based on what? You can forget about higher level for the next couple of decades and higher pay really depends on more than one parameter. Right now betting on MLS seems to more sensitive thing for upcoming talents.

I don't like the rule change. It will give other MLS teams more incentive to poach Canadian players, but makes it harder for Canadian MLS teams to retain Canadian talent. I can't see it helping the CPL either, who'll be stuck with the leftovers. On the other side it's a start (like MLS version of Free Agency). 

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Add me to the underwhelmed camp. This deal appears to improve MLS' lock on young players, by encouraging (maybe even pushing) kids to join before 16 or obtain a Gen Adidas designation. It did absolutely nothing to help our CMNT players (like Ledgerwood, Straith, Haber, etc...)  - who would be great MLS role players but aren't worth a DP designation. That's what needed to change. Sigh!

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23 minutes ago, shamrock said:

Based on what? You can forget about higher level for the next couple of decades and higher pay really depends on more than one parameter. Right now betting on MLS seems to more sensitive thing for upcoming talents.

I don't like the rule change. It will give other MLS teams more incentive to poach Canadian players, but makes it harder for Canadian MLS teams to retain Canadian talent. I can't see it helping the CPL either, who'll be stuck with the leftovers. On the other side it's a start (like MLS version of Free Agency). 

CPL will have higher pay and level of play than USL from the get go. Ballpark of MLS salaries (outside of DP) means 3rd highest paid league in CONCACAF.

Seriously, this changes nothing and at best all it will do is giving MLS teams control over Canadian talents that they would be quick to sell or/and loan back to CPL for extra $$$ while using the big 3 markets to make more $$$, more TV ratings and further legitimize MLS in the face of the world. That was by far the best MLS playoff series in their history (Ratings, world press and attendance), all that thanks to 2 Canadian teams.

People, open your eyes. It's about money, PR and control of 3 of the most lucrative markets in North America, not about "helping Canada soccer program". Montagliani sees it too and this recent playoffs serie is an eye opener of what CPL could be if it had total exclusivity of those 3 markets. I still persist in saying that CPL having 100% control of Canada is a long term goal.

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The more I think about it, the more I think this is a screw job.  It only applies to Canadians in an MLS stream, it is a direct disincentive to young players signing pro contracts with CPL in the future, and it seems arbitrarily restrictive.  It clearly has MLS as the primary beneficiary, and not the CSA.  

 

The real indicator of how much of a screw job this is becomes clear when you think of how easy it would have been to just eliminate the issue.  It would have been so easy to simply grant full domestic status to Canadians, just like Americans, since we are now strong contributors to what has become a US/Canadian league.   As proven last night, WE MAKE THE LEAGUE BETTER.  Mental gymnastics to find the silver lining would not be required if they had just made the one basic concession that would level the playing field.  Instead, we get a convoluted edict with unknown parameters and obvious downsides for Canadian domestic footy.

 

Still happy about the game last night and what it signifies for the game in Canada, but I will definitely be switching allegiance to the CPL since the MLS continues to treat Canadians as second class citizens.

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It's severely underwhelming.  It will help some players and that's good.  Also helps the Canadian teams as these players can be easier to trade now.  

I don't have anger towards MLS for favouring American players.  It should, it's their domestic league.  I'm glad we have a place in there for our players.  But I'm more glad that the CPL is on the way to truly develop our players and build the base.

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31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL will have higher pay and level of play than USL from the get go. Ballpark of MLS salaries (outside of DP) means 3rd highest paid league in CONCACAF.

As much as I would love your statement to be true, we have to remember that it is much easier to target that as a goal, than it is to make it happen (in reality) over the long haul. I see a choice of two avenues that a new CPL could take, as follows:

   i) Make a splash with lavish salaries to bring higher level players home right away, then deal with the "stress" (for lack of a better word) of sticking to that standard over time, especially if attendance and/or TV money doesn't pan out as planned or if unforeseen cost overruns exceed what you prepared for.

   ii) Or, start at a much more modest pay level (based on "floor" attendance and TV money and plan for a "ceiling" of cost overruns), that you are more likely to maintain over the years, then build from there. Problem with that option, is that salaries (at least in the first few years) wouldn't match what you list, so your playing level suffers to match.

Don't get me wrong, I love the spirit of your statement. I just don't know if it can be made as confidently as you seemed to make. Cheers!

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16 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It's severely underwhelming.  It will help some players and that's good.  Also helps the Canadian teams as these players can be easier to trade now.  

I don't have anger towards MLS for favouring American players.  It should, it's their domestic league.  I'm glad we have a place in there for our players.  But I'm more glad that the CPL is on the way to truly develop our players and build the base.

This. The only thing I would sort of disagree with is that this is underwhelming. It's not really that underwhelming to me just because I knew whatever they would come up with would be underwhelming and not really change much of anything.

We all knew they wouldn't make Canadians as domestics outright. The language used by people working on this "solution" were always talking about finding some way of improving the situation, rather than a more black and white domestic status change for all Canadians.

This issue for me was always a minor thing that is more important as an example of why we need the CPL, rather than a meaningful solution to our CMNT problems.

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42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL will have higher pay and level of play than USL from the get go. Ballpark of MLS salaries (outside of DP) means 3rd highest paid league in CONCACAF.

Very interesting. Do you have a link to the CPL club salaries?

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3 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Very interesting. Do you have a link to the CPL club salaries?

Consensus seems to be around $1.5M salary cap that I've seen so far.  3rd highest in CONCACAF isn't that hard to achieve when you look at the countries outside of USA and Mexico.

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1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Consensus seems to be around $1.5M salary cap that I've seen so far.  3rd highest in CONCACAF isn't that hard to achieve when you look at the countries outside of USA and Mexico.

That's a tweet from a journalist. He's suggesting what will "probably" be the salary structure. The way you were talking i figured you had some factual info. such as actual club salaries from the CPL players union.

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4 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

That's a tweet from a journalist. He's suggesting what will "probably" be the salary structure. The way you were talking i figured you had some factual info. such as actual club salaries from the CPL players union.

Very funny. I did say "rumored" and never claimed to have any factual information, however, don't you think the CSA would be making that much noise for a USL level league? They officially came out with a Division 1 league launch, so without expecting MLS salary cap, pure logic would be at NASL level at the very least.

Last time I checked, their level of play and salary was higher than USL, I could be wrong though...:rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Very funny. I did say "rumored" and never claimed to have any factual information, however, don't you think the CSA would be making that much noise for a USL level league? They officially came out with a Division 1 league launch, so without expecting MLS salary cap, pure logic would be at NASL level at the very least.

Last time I checked, their level of play and salary was higher than USL, I could be wrong though...:rolleyes:

Where did you say "rumoured" in your quote above when you were answering BBTB? Let's wait until the league actually launches with real clubs and real owners before making any unsubstantiated claims of any kind.

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I was thinking that if CPL is successful, given this new rule, it might be beneficial if CPL evolved to become a division within MLS with 6-10 teams. Each team having affiliates in smaller cities across Canada, each under a different brand. That way these teams and the teams in the various D3 leagues are all considered to be approved clubs. That would actually be huge for Canada.

Will it work? I'm not sure..but it's worth looking at. CPL will never be bigger than MLS. If you can't beat them, join them, right?

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I assume you mean USL in the first sentence? Agree that people need to think about ways to make what MLS have conceded work a lot better for Canadian soccer than Garber and co expect.

No I did in fact mean MLS. If we had our own Canadian division within MLS, they could have 30 American teams, we could support 6-10 teams. Cities that warrant MLS level teams are Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa. Beyond that, I could maybe see Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec City and Halifax being able to support teams.

  • 40 teams
  • 4 divisions of 10
  • Home and away within division
  • Remainder of the games could be against 2 of the other 3 division, with the divisions being rotated every year for a total of 38 games.

It would mean Vancouver might not have as intense a rivalry with Seattle or Portland, but it would be better for Canadian soccer as a whole.

These teams would have affiliate teams in the USL, in different cities with different branding. Their academies would participate in D3 leagues that hopefully spring up across the country. All teams in those D3 leagues would be on the approved cubs list.

Ideally we would have atleast 8 teams, with 6 it may not be worth going down this route. 10 teams would be a dream

As I said above, it's highly improbable that this could work, it would take a lot of persuasion but if it did it would be even more beneficial than an independent CPL that people hope the 3 MLS teams would move over to.

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3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Consensus seems to be around $1.5M salary cap that I've seen so far.  3rd highest in CONCACAF isn't that hard to achieve when you look at the countries outside of USA and Mexico.

I seriously doubt the new leagues teams will pay more than their direct competitors (USL) but even then, money isn't everything. You really think you can somehow invent the century-long history of a club like Saprissa in a few years? Do you have any idea how much knowledge is linked to such a club? 

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3 hours ago, zen said:

No I did in fact mean MLS. If we had our own Canadian division within MLS, they could have 30 American teams, we could support 6-10 teams. Cities that warrant MLS level teams are Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa. Beyond that, I could maybe see Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec City and Halifax being able to support teams.

  • 40 teams
  • 4 divisions of 10
  • Home and away within division
  • Remainder of the games could be against 2 of the other 3 division, with the divisions being rotated every year for a total of 38 games.

It would mean Vancouver might not have as intense a rivalry with Seattle or Portland, but it would be better for Canadian soccer as a whole.

These teams would have affiliate teams in the USL, in different cities with different branding. Their academies would participate in D3 leagues that hopefully spring up across the country. All teams in those D3 leagues would be on the approved cubs list.

Ideally we would have atleast 8 teams, with 6 it may not be worth going down this route. 10 teams would be a dream

As I said above, it's highly improbable that this could work, it would take a lot of persuasion but if it did it would be even more beneficial than an independent CPL that people hope the 3 MLS teams would move over to.

Hell no

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1 hour ago, shamrock said:

I seriously doubt the new leagues teams will pay more than their direct competitors (USL) but even then, money isn't everything. You really think you can somehow invent the century-long history of a club like Saprissa in a few years? Do you have any idea how much knowledge is linked to such a club? 

So CPL will pay less money than USL? Ok...I'll enjoy saying I told you so once we get more details 

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