Lurker Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/fifafacts/rawrank/ip-590_10e_wrpointcalculation_8771.pdf Not sure how familiar everyone is with the actual inner workings of the Fifa ranking system but I just thought I'd point out that points accumulated in Continental Finals are worth triple that of a friendly. I was on the fence in the 2 or 4 year Gold Cup debate but this makes me think they should have the Gold Cup once a year. [8D] Unfortunately for Canada we're about to enter a dead zone for two years (the next Gold Cup) where we we'll only accumulate minimal points from friendlies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Triple points? Really? Wow. Nice find. How about that? Some mention was made elsewhere about how this years accumulation of points won't have a great effect on our overall ranking by the time WCQ begins again (for us) except that with the Gold Cup being so frequent a positive run in this edition will</u> have a huge effect on our ranking and play an important part in whether we are seeded come the next Gold Cup in 2011. Which could mean no "Group of Death" in 2011, thereby increasing our chances for another successful run in the Gold Cup, accumulating ranking points along the way and helping immensely in getting us seeded come the WCQ draw. A leads to B and is followed by C, blah, blah, blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Was there even seeding in this GC? I was under the impression CONCACAF just pulled the groups out of their ass to match the venues and make bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballfreak Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by theaub Was there even seeding in this GC? I was under the impression CONCACAF just pulled the groups out of their ass to match the venues and make bank. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by theaub Was there even seeding in this GC? I was under the impression CONCACAF just pulled the groups out of their ass to match the venues and make bank. LOL. Ya. Columbus was a gold mine for them. [xx(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
closetboostie Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta Triple points? Really? Wow. Nice find. How about that? Some mention was made elsewhere about how this years accumulation of points won't have a great effect on our overall ranking by the time WCQ begins again (for us) except that with the Gold Cup being so frequent a positive run in this edition will</u> have a huge effect on our ranking and play an important part in whether we are seeded come the next Gold Cup in 2011. Which could mean no "Group of Death" in 2011, thereby increasing our chances for another successful run in the Gold Cup, accumulating ranking points along the way and helping immensely in getting us seeded come the WCQ draw. A leads to B and is followed by C, blah, blah, blah. Agreed, with one reminder. Last time around the results from the most recent Gold Cup were not included in the rankings that were used to seed the teams for World Cup Qualifying. I hope we can stay in the upper echelon of Concacaf for the entire time, we never know what arbitrary date will be used next time around. A few well placed friendlies would do a lot to help us out on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by closetboostie Agreed, with one reminder. Last time around the results from the most recent Gold Cup were not included in the rankings that were used to seed the teams for World Cup Qualifying. I hope we can stay in the upper echelon of Concacaf for the entire time, we never know what arbitrary date will be used next time around. A few well placed friendlies would do a lot to help us out on that front. With more players in MLS we can begin to think seriously about playing winter friendlies in our own region - the way other CONCACAF nations do. The money barrier is always there but if we want World Cup qualification we have to start using the strong and growing core of MLS players available. It should also have the benefit of keeping our ranking from dropping due to inactivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keano Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ray With more players in MLS we can begin to think seriously about playing winter friendlies in our own region - the way other CONCACAF nations do. The money barrier is always there but if we want World Cup qualification we have to start using the strong and growing core of MLS players available. It should also have the benefit of keeping our ranking from dropping due to inactivity. Yes I could actually see us winning some friendlies against legitimate teams with an all North American side... could be a great and cheaper way to keep the ranking up a little before the next GC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Triple points? Makes me think of the promotions at Sobey's. This aspect just confirms the importance of this tournament, more than ever. An excellent performance (champion or finalist) will make our team more attractive to other countries for friendlies. Why should Italy or Holland play us in a friendly? Well if we upset the US/Mexico in the final, we can be the CONCACAF team for WC prep for qualified nations. Success gives us credibility, confidence, and further development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red card Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Wow, triple points for Gold Cup held every 2 years also means rankings for USA & Mexico can be considered slightly inflated. Though UEFA has an extensive qualifying process for the Euros but points given is 2.5. And UEFA & CONMEBOL points are juiced up more since they have strong federations - but then again, it also means less likely to rack up wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdroze Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 But USA and Mexico, like Canada, don't have to qualify for the Gold Cup, so it probably evens out with the European teams. The inflated rankings go to teams like Costa Rica, Honduras, Jamaica, Guatemala who do both Gold Cup qualifying (x2.5) and then Gold Cup (x3) every two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by redhat Triple points? Makes me think of the promotions at Sobey's. Yeah, it made me think of Scratch and Save at The Bay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 I'm pretty sure the Caribbean Championship and UNCAF Nations Cup get weighted to 2.5 because they are Continental Qualifiers for the Gold Cup. A free pass to the Gold Cup isn't exactly helping our FIFA ranking. It's ok for top dogs Mexico and USA but it's definitely having a negative impact on our ranking in the Confederation. I'm not really sure how we would be incorporated into the qualifying process for the Gold Cup but if we were allowed to push around the likes of say Bermuda and Suriname for a few games at 2.5 the going rate we'd have a fairer shake in these rankings. We're not on level ground in CONCACAF (when it comes to the rankings) and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot that can be done about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rujulus Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Marc Yeah, it made me think of Scratch and Save at The Bay That made me think of the Scratch n' Sniff books I had as a kid. Just say no to MNT Scratch n' Sniff calendars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I'm not sure how much affect a three year old tournament is going to have on the CONCACAF rankings when the next draw is made -- next to none, I suspect. But, I appreciate the need to improve the FIFA ranking, however flawed it may be. I've always said we should set up a monthly home and away series with Cayman Islands to keep bumping that ranking up (and I'm only half kidding). FWIW in the far superior ELO rankings we went up by six spots to No 54 with the win over Jamaica (they haven't updated after El Salvador yet). http://www.eloratings.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Everybody talks about ELO and other rankings. It is precisely those rankings that are totally useless for us to look at. What counts is that FIFA rankings determine our seeding for the semifinals in WCQ and the last two WCQ campaigns we started in what has to be called the group of death in our semifinal groupings - due TOTALLY to our FIFA ranking that was used at the draw. We need to get results against CONCACAF teams so that is why I would prefer 0 experimentation in the next match. Get the result, move on to the quarters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Elo is great to know where we stand in the world (and also for that song "Telephone Line"), but obviously FIFA rankings matter more. That said, if we use going up in Elo as an indicator and going up in FIFA as a goal, we won't be too far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Ed Everybody talks about ELO and other rankings. It is precisely those rankings that are totally useless for us to look at. What counts is that FIFA rankings determine our seeding for the semifinals in WCQ and the last two WCQ campaigns we started in what has to be called the group of death in our semifinal groupings - due TOTALLY to our FIFA ranking that was used at the draw. We need to get results against CONCACAF teams so that is why I would prefer 0 experimentation in the next match. Get the result, move on to the quarters. In CONCACAF competition, Canada is pretty much always going to be in the Group of Death because we make it such -- i.e. we are the most talented team in the region that isn't in the Hex. In terms of avoiding the really tough groups...well there is only so much we can do. I'm not sure we will play near enough games to break into the top six. Drawing Honduras was a kick in the nuts, however. Can one country have worse luck than us? The ELO rankings are a much better indicator of just how good you are. As such they are useful as a gage of what needs to happen. FWIW - Canada is No. 5 in CONCACAF in ELO, which is about right and still wouldn't get us to South Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 ^ Given that we took only 1 of a possible 6 points off them in our semi-final group, I would definitely have to say that Jamaica is the 'most talented team in the region that isn't in the Hex'. Or are you going with the ELO rankings ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballfreak Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 This may be a stupid idea, but is there any reason to believe the CSA could wave it's automatic Gold Cup spot and choose to go through qualifying in either the CFU or UNCAF? UNCAF might welcome Canada given the unequal groups of 4 and 3 they use. Just give them 6 qualifying spots instead of 5. It's played in January/February during the MLS off-season. A North-American based squad would surely benefit from the experience, rack up some FIFA points and qualify every time. Of course, it would probably sent most voyageurs into fits as we would have to deal with corrupt and incompetent Central American refs even more often. Edit: Oh, almost forgot the best part. Because it's not through the CFU, there's less of a chance of Cap'n Jack screwing with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by footballfreak This may be a stupid idea, but is there any reason to believe the CSA could wave it's automatic Gold Cup spot and choose to go through qualifying in either the CFU or UNCAF? Well it's an idea, but I'm not in favour of it. If Canada needs matches, it should schedule them and not wait for another body to set it up. Can you imagine if your MLS-based "B" team misses the Gold Cup? The damage to our program? T&T and Guatemala missed this year and I cannot fathom another disappointment for us. We need to play more matches, even if it means setting up our own tournament (eg. Canada Cup) at BMO, Saputo, or Stad Olympique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Yeah, "triple points" sounds great and all until you realize that continental qualifying matches are worth 2.5*friendly points. Having gold cup every two years doesn't inflate CONCACAF member rankings because UEFA has European championship qualifiers which involve even more games for each nation. Africa also has the African Cup of Nations every 2 years. But its not difficult to see how CONMEBOL teams get screwed by the new ranking formula now that Copa America is only once every 4 years and it doesn't involve any qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Ed ^ Given that we took only 1 of a possible 6 points off them in our semi-final group, I would definitely have to say that Jamaica is the 'most talented team in the region that isn't in the Hex'. Or are you going with the ELO rankings ? That's only half the story though. In the first game, we dominated them (more than we did last week, even) but allowed the weakest goal I've ever seen a Canadian team allow. They were lucky to draw us there. The second game against them, we were already eliminated while they had to win big to stay alive (plus hope for other results to go their way). We played our B team and got crushed. I haven't seen anything from Jamaica to convince me that they are better than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballfreak Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by redhat Well it's an idea, but I'm not in favour of it. If Canada needs matches, it should schedule them and not wait for another body to set it up. Can you imagine if your MLS-based "B" team misses the Gold Cup? The damage to our program? T&T and Guatemala missed this year and I cannot fathom another disappointment for us. We need to play more matches, even if it means setting up our own tournament (eg. Canada Cup) at BMO, Saputo, or Stad Olympique. Of course Canada should be scheduling friendlies, but every UNCAF/CFU qualifier counts for 2.5 times the points. Beating El Salvador in the UNCAF Cup would probably earn as many points as beating Spain in a friendly. As far as not qualifying: A) If Canada's North American players are not better than Belize and Nicaragua we shouldn't be at the Gold Cup and we deffintitely shouldn't be in the Hex. Someone may want to correct me, but didn't T&T miss because they were missing half their players? Was the pay dispute with the federation still going on at that point? C) By the looks of the lineup they used, Guatemala played a U-21/23 team against Nicaragua. They got what they deserved. I would be all in favour of friendlies if it weren't for that damned 2.5 multiplier but, as it stands, we need to get in on qualifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 This Costa Rica match could really push our ranking. 30th in the world and triple points oooo boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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