Triple Fifa Points for Gold Cup

[rdroze]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

So I spent a few minutes looking over the "Rankings" section on the FIFA website. That is all I know, so if anybody knows differently from what I am going to say, please jump in.

Your analysis looks correct, from what I see, except perhaps for this point:

quote:So, depending on when the WC2014 draw is made, points gained at this GC will be discounted to either 30% or 20%, which will effectively be 15% or 10% towards our total points.

The CONCACAF draw for 2010 was made based on the rankings as of May 2007. If one were to believe that the draw for 2014 would use the rankings as of May 2011, then this year's Gold Cup points would still be worth 50% (good for us).

However, we all know Jack Warner will choose to use whichever rankings benefit T&T (or whoever else pays him) the most.

[rdroze]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

So I spent a few minutes looking over the "Rankings" section on the FIFA website. That is all I know, so if anybody knows differently from what I am going to say, please jump in.

Your analysis looks correct, from what I see, except perhaps for this point:

quote:So, depending on when the WC2014 draw is made, points gained at this GC will be discounted to either 30% or 20%, which will effectively be 15% or 10% towards our total points.

The CONCACAF draw for 2010 was made based on the rankings as of May 2007. If one were to believe that the draw for 2014 would use the rankings as of May 2011, then this year's Gold Cup points would still be worth 50% (good for us).

However, we all know Jack Warner will choose to use whichever rankings benefit T&T (or whoever else pays him) the most.

[Guest Ed]

Bottom line is that we have to gather as many points against CONCACAF opposition when we have the opportunity. The month that they use as ranking criteria isn't the issue; the issue is can we get back into top 4 or top 6 and stay there for a couple of years.

[footballfreak]

quote:Originally posted by rdroze

Your analysis looks correct, from what I see, except perhaps for this point:

True, but what would be more benefitial would be using the June/July 2011 rankings so our 2011 Gold Cup gets counted.

Hopefully T&T will improve it's ranking at that Gold Cup. Presto Change-O, they'll use July '11. We may even be placed in a scenario where it's benefital from a WCQ perspective for us to lose a Gold Cup match against them.[]

The CONCACAF draw for 2010 was made based on the rankings as of May 2007. If one were to believe that the draw for 2014 would use the rankings as of May 2011, then this year's Gold Cup points would still be worth 50% (good for us).

However, we all know Jack Warner will choose to use whichever rankings benefit T&T (or whoever else pays him) the most.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

^ Given that we took only 1 of a possible 6 points off them in our semi-final group, I would definitely have to say that Jamaica is the 'most talented team in the region that isn't in the Hex'. Or are you going with the ELO rankings ?

I'm not sure you can take much away from WCQ as the team that showed up was a far cry from what was on the pitch in the year before or, apparently, the year after (I can think of one good reason as to why that I'm not going to get into again--we won that battle anyway).

Yes, I do think we are more talented than Jamaica (although it's close to be sure).

[Guest Ed]

This is why I get pissed reading these boards. You and Rudi are massive Cdn supporters, so let me just say that the WCQ results are the ONLY results that matter. And we have not been top 6 in the last 2 rotations. How do we miraculously become 'better' than (pick any of) T&T, Jamaica, Honduras, Costa Rica, Mexico, USA, Guatemala) when we can't beat them in WCQ? I think we look better only when there is no pressure. We perennially poop the bed when it counts.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

Well it's an idea, but I'm not in favour of it. If Canada needs

matches, it should schedule them and not wait for another body to

set it up.

Can you imagine if your MLS-based "B" team misses the Gold Cup?

The damage to our program? T&T and Guatemala missed this year

and I cannot fathom another disappointment for us.

We need to play more matches, even if it means setting up our

own tournament (eg. Canada Cup) at BMO, Saputo, or Stad Olympique.

As long as we're throwing crazy ideas out...I've always thought an annual tournament tied into Caribana in Toronto could be useful. Invite three Caribbean teams and Canada. Yes, the ex-pats would drive us a little batty, but if it was an annual thing the Vs would find their place in the stadium and it might actually solidify the group (a few ex-pats might take to the team as a second choice at least – we have more than a few players of Caribbean heritage after all). More importantly there would be an annual tournament that Canada should win more than it loses (helping with the ranking) and I suspect it would be a good draw (putting money into the CSA's hands).

[Guest Ed]

^ That is an excellent idea; if BMO gets grass.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

As long as we're throwing crazy ideas out...I've always thought an annual tournament tied into Caribana in Toronto could be useful. Invite three Caribbean teams and Canada.

More importantly there would be an annual tournament that Canada should win more than it loses (helping with the ranking) and I suspect it would be a good draw (putting money into the CSA's hands).

Not crazy at all. It would be a money-maker for the CSA, it

confirms their stated commitment to have some matches in Canada,

and it is a regional event. I'd invite T&T, Jamaica, USA, and

Canada: two North American, and two Caribbean. The cost of

grass can be easily recovered with ticket revenues and international

TV fees.

And it can also confirm that the Gold Cup can be played

at BMO. CSA and MLSE marketing would be salivating at such

an event: all matches would sell out, and merchandise sales ...

[Lurker]

If I remember correctly we did something like this back in 1994 with Chile and Northern Ireland. (Wasn't it called the Canada Cup?).

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Lurker

If I remember correctly we did something like this back in 1994 with Chile and Northern Ireland. (Wasn't it called the Canada Cup?).

Check out the CSA archives. It was 1995. We had a second Canada Cup in Edmonton as recently as summer of 1999 - Guatemala, Ecuador, Iran and Canada.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

We need to get results against CONCACAF teams so that is why I would prefer 0 experimentation in the next match. Get the result, move on to the quarters.

I don't want experimentation but some players might get rested with all the travel in between games and I'm ok with that. Thankfully there is a week between the 3rd group game and the quarter-final.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Check out the CSA archives. It was 1995. We had a second Canada Cup in Edmonton as recently as summer of 1999 - Guatemala, Ecuador, Iran and Canada.

Yep the 1999 Canada Cup was an attendance disaster for various reasons.

IIRC, Edmonton weather was cold and Brazil was supposed to

participate, so instead of paying a lot of money for their

U23 B team, Ecuador filled in, with very little fanfare.

For a 3 day tournament, only 10,000 showed up in total (as I recall).

That is why I think a tournament in Toronto and or Montreal would

be perfect, although having a pro-Canada crowd during Caribana

would be a challenge for us Voyageurs.

There was also a Sir Matthews Cup, which at one point involved

Chile and/or Denmark. Regardless, I think it's time to resurrect

the invitational which used to be held at Varsity (or Sky Dome).

[Trident]

I would be all in favour of holding a cup in toronto or vancouver, against nations that would draw in expats.

1.More people=more money

2.Playing the likes of a Haiti or Jamaica isn't the most difficult of teams, playing a Honduras would be a nice challenge, etc.

3.It would be 3+ games a year, which is a nice step for canadian teams.

[FootieFool]

quote:Originally posted by theaub

Was there even seeding in this GC? I was under the impression CONCACAF just pulled the groups out of their ass to match the venues and make bank.

I'd like to think there was some kind of seeding going on, but the official regulations as to how the groups are created is left completely up to the discretion of the organizing committee.

From http://www.concacaf.com/stats_regs.aspx

quote:"The Executive Committee shall divide the twelve (12) teams of the Final Phase into three groups of four teams each, or such groups as they consider necessary for the efficient conduct of the competition and set the schedule thereof.

Seems like that gives a lot of arbitrary power to CONCACAF

[footballfreak]

Arbitrary power and CONCACAF, what madness is this?

In case anyone doesn't feel like digging it up again, here are the 7 members who make up the Executive Committee:

President Jack Warner (Trinidad & Tobago) - henceforth to be known as Cap'n Jack Warner

Caribbean Zone

Vice President Lisle B. "don't call me Kate" Austin (Barbados)

Member Member Horace Burrell (Jamaica)

North American Zone (aka the USA-Mexico co-prosperity sphere)

Vice President Guillermo Canedo White (Mexico)

Member Sunil Gulati (USA)

UNCAF

Vice President Alfredo Hawit Banegas (Honduras)

Ariel Alvarado (Panama)

These men typically run unopposed with the recent exception of Horace Burrell who was challenged by Peter Jenkins of St. Kitts & Nevis in June. Well... he tried to challenge, until he got the fear of Zod put into him.

http://www.thereggaeboyz.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130393

quote:CONCACAF boss Warner also lashed the candidacy of Jenkins and was the man who told delegates at the CFU gathering Sunday that only one action was acceptable, and that was to unite and support the incumbent.

"At the meeting of the delegates I was very critical of the fact that Caribbean football is split over a candidate which is unprecedented and this is what we have fought against over the years, and I told them yesterday (Sunday) that they should not support him (Jenkins), this on the fact that he has contravened our political conventions of having one candidate (in these situations)," said Warner after the CONCACAF meeting.

Don't bother searching for info on these guys on the CONCACAF website because you won't even find their nationalities listed. Although, if you feel like spamming them, their emails are right here.

http://www.concacaf.com/committees.aspx

[Edgar]

quote:Originally posted by footballfreak

This may be a stupid idea, but is there any reason to believe the CSA could wave it's automatic Gold Cup spot and choose to go through qualifying in either the CFU or UNCAF?

UNCAF might welcome Canada given the unequal groups of 4 and 3 they use. Just give them 6 qualifying spots instead of 5. It's played in January/February during the MLS off-season. A North-American based squad would surely benefit from the experience, rack up some FIFA points and qualify every time.

Of course, it would probably sent most voyageurs into fits as we would have to deal with corrupt and incompetent Central American refs even more often.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot the best part. Because it's not through the CFU, there's less of a chance of Cap'n Jack screwing with us.

Qualifying through UNCAF or CFU is a very good idea. I think the CFU is better options because you'd have more games.

In UNCAF you have a minimum of 3 games and you'd need to finish 3rd in your group (6 GC spots available for 8 teams).

In CFU you'd have at least 4. 3 in the final group stage (if you reach that stage of course) and one for the 5th place play-off. There would be 5 places available for 8 teams. On top of that you'd have to qualify for the final group stage, so add 2-3 games to that.

See the setup of the Caribbean Championship 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Championship_2008

And looking at the Elo ratings in the Caribbean, I think it should be easy to get in the top 5.

http://www.eloratings.net/caribbean.html

On the other hand, there's Jack Warner thing and perhaps it's easier to finish 6th in UNCAF (above Nicaragua and Belize) than 5th in CFU.

Would CSA give up their automatic spot? I don't know.

[Edgar]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

Well it's an idea, but I'm not in favour of it. If Canada needs

matches, it should schedule them and not wait for another body to

set it up.

Can you imagine if your MLS-based "B" team misses the Gold Cup?

The damage to our program? T&T and Guatemala missed this year

and I cannot fathom another disappointment for us.

We need to play more matches, even if it means setting up our

own tournament (eg. Canada Cup) at BMO, Saputo, or Stad Olympique.

There's no way a friendly tournament will bring you the same amount of points as qualifying through CFU/UNCAF.

You mentioned "FIFA-sanctioned". FIFA will still consider those matches as friendlies for ranking purposes.

There's also the option of having a confederation wide qualifying process as suggested by footballfreak on BigSoccer.

It would look like that:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18193095&postcount=13

That's highly unlikely though.

[greenfield]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

^ That is an excellent idea; if BMO gets grass.

I support grass at BMO field (put some down for turf too but fail to see how that is relevant to having a summer tournament. The fieldturf wont need time off between games like the grass would.

I seem to remember being at Varsity for a Caribana Cup game as well. Jamaica and T&T were the opponents in a round robin I think. I do remember the crowd's reaction when the announcer referred to T&T as Jamaica. I also remember being threatened and told we were cheering too loud for Canada

[greenfield]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

let me just say that the WCQ results are the ONLY results that matter. And we have not been top 6 in the last 2 rotations. How do we miraculously become 'better' than (pick any of) T&T, Jamaica, Honduras, Costa Rica, Mexico, USA, Guatemala) when we can't beat them in WCQ? I think we look better only when there is no pressure. We perennially poop the bed when it counts.

Can't help but agree.

The only way that is going to happen is by playing games with our main team. If that means qualifying for the Gold Cup, having a Canada Cup or just plain scheduling more friendlies, it has to happen. If we play the games, our FIFA ranking will improve along with our ability to win important games.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by _Edgar_

You mentioned "FIFA-sanctioned". FIFA will still consider those matches as friendlies for ranking purposes.

Your points are well-noted, Edgar (from Romania).

Lots of issues are involved: will any of these regional tournaments

allow us to take away a possible spot? How will our players feel

about flying (or taking another boat ride) to Martinique or St. Kitts?

And would we feel good if we send a "B" team to a tournament that

could knock us off playing at the Gold Cup?

My suggestion is: (a) a potential money-maker for the CSA,

( realizes the CSA pledge of hosting games in Canada,

and © getting FIFA points, without jeopardizing our entry to

the Gold Cup.

I understand the benefits of the pre-qualification method, but

if Mexico and the USA gets a bye, why not us? I could just imagine

getting our "B" team knocked out by a poor call by a CONCACAF ref,

and be subjected to poor playing conditions that would cause injury

to a top player. We get crap FIFA points because of the lack of

matches , the lack of relatively recent successes, and lack of money.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by greenfield

I seem to remember being at Varsity for a Caribana Cup game as well. Jamaica and T&T were the opponents in a round robin I think. I do remember the crowd's reaction when the announcer referred to T&T as Jamaica. I also remember being threatened and told we were cheering too loud for Canada

Part of the pains of being a Canadian supporter, especially in the

early days.

The last Caribana Cup (August 1-3, 1995) @ Varsity:

Canada 3, Jamaica 1

Canada 3, Trinidad & Tobago 1

The last Canada Cup (June 2-6, 1999) @ Commonwealth, EDM:

Canada 2, Guatemala 0

Canada 0, Iran 1

Canada 1, Ecuador 2

The last Skydome Cup (Jan 24-26, 1995) @ Skydome (of course):

Canada 0, Denmark 1

Canada 1, Portugal 1

Lots of matches in 1995, you say? We played 8 in Canada that

year (1995) alone.

[Metro]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

Yep the 1999 Canada Cup was an attendance disaster for various reasons.

IIRC, Edmonton weather was cold and Brazil was supposed to

participate, so instead of paying a lot of money for their

U23 B team, Ecuador filled in, with very little fanfare.

For a 3 day tournament, only 10,000 showed up in total (as I recall).

That is why I think a tournament in Toronto and or Montreal would

be perfect, although having a pro-Canada crowd during Caribana

would be a challenge for us Voyageurs.

There was also a Sir Matthews Cup, which at one point involved

Chile and/or Denmark. Regardless, I think it's time to resurrect

the invitational which used to be held at Varsity (or Sky Dome).

The Matthews Cup involved Canada, Greece and Chile. IIRC Canada lost to Greece 3-0, beat Chile 2-1 and beat Greece in the final on penalties after a 0-0 draw.

I've wondered how in the past the CSA was able to afford tournaments such as the ones posted above in the past, but now when the topic of hosting a friendly pops up, they turn their pockets inside out and shrug their shoulders...

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Metro

The Matthews Cup involved Canada, Greece and Chile. IIRC Canada lost to Greece 3-0, beat Chile 2-1 and beat Greece in the final on penalties after a 0-0 draw.

I've wondered how in the past the CSA was able to afford tournaments such as the ones posted above in the past, but now when the topic of hosting a friendly pops up, they turn their pockets inside out and shrug their shoulders...

Awesome memory! The Matthews Cup was held on May 21-28, 1988 and the

scores were exactly as you recalled. We also played Greece in

Montreal in a friendly on May 19th, at the losing end of a 0-1 score.

In 1988 Canada played 14 matches: 2 were WCQers (Guatemala), and

6 were friendlies played in Canada (including 3 for the Matthews Cup).

I think we had deeper pockets then because of our WC 1986 appearance

which also allowed us to be invited to the Merlion Cup. Also the

Canadian Soccer League started in 1987 and we suddenly had some

momentum in getting as much prep for the next WC.

Now we also have to consider our women's program in light of budgets.

[footballfreak]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

I understand the benefits of the pre-qualification method, but

if Mexico and the USA gets a bye, why not us?

I assume you're looking for a better answer than the obvious "both are much better teams than Canada"?