Dominick Zator

[Bigandy]

11 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don’t think people criticize him more so than just acknowledge that he’s playing in Poland at 29 for a team that’s in the relegation zone. Godinho has a higher FotMob rating for Kielce currently. He’s a good depth piece when we need some extra players though. 

I was being a bit tongue and cheek because I unfairly criticized him recently...

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don’t think people criticize him more so than just acknowledge that he’s playing in Poland at 29 for a team that’s in the relegation zone. Godinho has a higher FotMob rating for Kielce currently. He’s a good depth piece when we need some extra players though. 

CB peak around that age, Warsaw defeated Aston Villa in conference league and helped turn around the club in half a season upon his arrival. We need to look as his individual performance as well. not just his club's ranking.

[Shway]

I would love to call him in, but for me, he's in a battle with his other CPL alumni brothers in MacNaughton, and Waterman. 

[Bigandy]

16 minutes ago, Shway said:

I would love to call him in, but for me, he's in a battle with his other CPL alumni brothers in MacNaughton, and Waterman. 

Whats your ranking of the 3. 

I think it goes 
1 LM
2 DZ 
3 JW

[InglewoodJack]

31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CB peak around that age, Warsaw defeated Aston Villa in conference league and helped turn around the club in half a season upon his arrival. We need to look as his individual performance as well. not just his club's ranking.

Yeah, but his team isn’t particularly strong, and while he’s good, it’s not like he’s the best player in his team by far or anything. Don’t mean to take anything away from him, he came when called upon, but I think he’s a tier below the other CB options we have at our disposal. I think MacNaughton is above him, and I have Waterman above him too, but that one I may be convinced otherwise on. 

[Shway]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Whats your ranking of the 3. 

I think it goes 
1 LM
2 DZ 
3 JW

This is mine too...
Lukas I think is currently injured.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

while he’s good, it’s not like he’s the best player in his team by far or anything.

Didn't he literally win player of the season after coming in mid-season?

[VinceA]

I like Zator but MLS is stronger than the Polish League, and he's not even on a good Polish team. Any CB in MLS playing regularly is probably ahead of him in the depth chart.

[Obinna]

39 minutes ago, VinceA said:

I like Zator but MLS is stronger than the Polish League, and he's not even on a good Polish team. Any CB in MLS playing regularly is probably ahead of him in the depth chart.

Isn't there room for debate on that? Yes the Polish League isn't as strong, but how big is the gap? Vitoria was playing in the Polish league for years and was a regular. He was playing for a better team, but he wasn't always a starter. Zator is an everyday starter and has worn the armband, pretty big deal even for a club that seemed to barely survived relegation, yet finished 13th out of 18 teams.

Haven't watched any games but I see Korona Kielce sit 17th now, but with -3 goal difference and a game in hand on every team below 12th. Ruch Chorzow (18th) has a GD of -6 and Lodz (16th) has a goal difference of -8. The safe teams in 15th and 14th are at -7 and -6 respectively. So, while I haven't watched, on the surface it seems they are better than their standing.

Not sure if that persuades you or not, but it's a little more context than just saying he's not even on a good Polish team. I mean yes that's fair to say, because they are not challenging for the league, but he's arguably one of the clubs better players and you know how it is most European leagues...the good players on weaker clubs could be rotational players on stronger clubs and vice versa.

Say he gets a transfer in winter to Lech Poznan but gets his minutes cut in half, do we hold him in higher regards? 

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Isn't there room for debate on that? Yes the Polish League isn't as strong, but how big is the gap? Vitoria was playing in the Polish league for years and was a regular. He was playing for a better team, but he wasn't always a starter. Zator is an everyday starter and has worn the armband, pretty big deal even for a club that seemed to barely survived relegation, yet finished 13th out of 18 teams.

Haven't watched any games but I see Korona Kielce sit 17th now, but with -3 goal difference and a game in hand on every team below 12th. Ruch Chorzow (18th) has a GD of -6 and Lodz (16th) has a goal difference of -8. The safe teams in 15th and 14th are at -7 and -6 respectively. So, while I haven't watched, on the surface it seems they are better than their standing.

Not sure if that persuades you or not, but it's a little more context than just saying he's not even on a good Polish team. I mean yes that's fair to say, because they are not challenging for the league, but he's arguably one of the clubs better players and you know how it is most European leagues...the good players on weaker clubs could be rotational players on stronger clubs and vice versa.

Say he gets a transfer in winter to Lech Poznan but gets his minutes cut in half, do we hold him in higher regards? 

Nah, MLS is the measuring stick - didn't you know? (even without watching any of that league's clubs play)

I'm a Europa nerd and I like to watch less known leagues top club play and I agree with you, people need to stop thinking that the gap between both (Polish and MLS) league is like the grand canyon...smh . Warsaw vs Villa (Villa lost) was very interesting to watch and judge what top clubs could do. Mind you, this means that Zator is exposed to that level and had to face those quality clubs

No doubt about it, he's not on a good team and have to do a lot of defending. They lose most of the time but don't get blown out - games are close which also means that his club lacks scoring power. This isn't really his role despite contributing  I'm hopeful that he moves to a better club or league if he keeps this up.

But it gets ridiculous to read MLS is better - case close while ignoring the individual performances and some of the nuance I've highlighted. I'm beating a dead horse - I know.

[InglewoodJack]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Isn't there room for debate on that? Yes the Polish League isn't as strong, but how big is the gap? Vitoria was playing in the Polish league for years and was a regular. He was playing for a better team, but he wasn't always a starter. Zator is an everyday starter and has worn the armband, pretty big deal even for a club that seemed to barely survived relegation, yet finished 13th out of 18 teams.

Haven't watched any games but I see Korona Kielce sit 17th now, but with -3 goal difference and a game in hand on every team below 12th. Ruch Chorzow (18th) has a GD of -6 and Lodz (16th) has a goal difference of -8. The safe teams in 15th and 14th are at -7 and -6 respectively. So, while I haven't watched, on the surface it seems they are better than their standing.

Not sure if that persuades you or not, but it's a little more context than just saying he's not even on a good Polish team. I mean yes that's fair to say, because they are not challenging for the league, but he's arguably one of the clubs better players and you know how it is most European leagues...the good players on weaker clubs could be rotational players on stronger clubs and vice versa.

Say he gets a transfer in winter to Lech Poznan but gets his minutes cut in half, do we hold him in higher regards? 

They finished 4 points above relegation last year, were in the second tier the two years prior and were second to last in the season they were relegated- they've only ever won one championship, and that was a second division title in 2003. In terms of their players, not a single player from their squad last year went to a better team. Their highest rated player currently is a 25 year old player from Slovakia who has never recieved a call from his country's senior team.

 

I'm now in the unfortunate position to talk down on Zator's accomplishments which are solid for what they are, but I think a team like Kielce is going to be easier for a player to break into than your typical MLS squad, even though I think the top polish teams are probably as good or better than the top MLS teams. I think the gap between rosters is a lot higher than in MLS.

I think for him to be held in high esteem, he'd need a trajectory similar to Eustaquio- go from star of a bottom team to a regular starter for a top team. If he's a starter for Lech Poznan, then sure, he should be in the convo for serious minutes, but where he's at right now, he's a fine option for when a lot of guys are injured.

[InglewoodJack]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Didn't he literally win player of the season after coming in mid-season?

Did he? I thought it was defenceman of the year, but I might be wrong. Point was more that it's not like he's head and shoulders above everyone else to the point where a future move is in the cards. He's playing very well for a team that isn't doing too well.

[Obinna]

20 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

They finished 4 points above relegation last year, were in the second tier the two years prior and were second to last in the season they were relegated- they've only ever won one championship, and that was a second division title in 2003. In terms of their players, not a single player from their squad last year went to a better team. Their highest rated player currently is a 25 year old player from Slovakia who has never recieved a call from his country's senior team.

 

I'm now in the unfortunate position to talk down on Zator's accomplishments which are solid for what they are, but I think a team like Kielce is going to be easier for a player to break into than your typical MLS squad, even though I think the top polish teams are probably as good or better than the top MLS teams. I think the gap between rosters is a lot higher than in MLS.

I think for him to be held in high esteem, he'd need a trajectory similar to Eustaquio- go from star of a bottom team to a regular starter for a top team. If he's a starter for Lech Poznan, then sure, he should be in the convo for serious minutes, but where he's at right now, he's a fine option for when a lot of guys are injured.

Agree with several points but in terms of the bolded stuff firstly I would say that he's more than broken in, he's one of their best players, no?

Look at Godinho - that's someone I would say has broken in and has finally retained a starting spot, but it took him half a season to do so.

Consider his time in Vancouver, in his half season of MLS he started 12 and subbed in for 11. Then immediately moved to Poland and started 6 and subbed in for 9. He was actually more of a starter for Vancouver, but point is that he took time to break in. Zator took no time to break in and became a key player for them basically right away. This is probably why he's getting NT calls and Godinho isn't, but shout out to Godinho for earning a starting spot for his club.

Secondly I would say he's possibly on the Eustaquio path right now, albeit on a lower level. He's a star for his team, so check that off. Next he needs to go to a better club and start. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Obinna

[Obinna]

29 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Did he? I thought it was defenceman of the year, but I might be wrong. Point was more that it's not like he's head and shoulders above everyone else to the point where a future move is in the cards. He's playing very well for a team that isn't doing too well.

Again, this feels like what Eustaquio was doing for Pacos. And if Zator won player of the year of even defender of the year for his club, I would say that does put him head and shoulders above everyone else. 

We haven't heard any rumours yet and at aged 29 he may not make a transfer to a Lech, let's say. You never know though, if he keeps playing well and his club can improve on 13th place he might not even need to transfer. Maybe he can help them to an upper half finish. Maybe even challenge for a Europa Conference spot, who knows?

Edit - I should correct myself because Pacos were doing exceedinly well towards the end of SE's time there. Tough start for Korona Kielce but maybe we can see something similar for Zator and co. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Obinna
correction

[InglewoodJack]

39 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Again, this feels like what Eustaquio was doing for Pacos. And if Zator won player of the year of even defender of the year for his club, I would say that does put him head and shoulders above everyone else. 

We haven't heard any rumours yet and at aged 29 he may not make a transfer to a Lech, let's say. You never know though, if he keeps playing well and his club can improve on 13th place he might not even need to transfer. Maybe he can help them to an upper half finish. Maybe even challenge for a Europa Conference spot, who knows?

Edit - I should correct myself because Pacos were doing exceedinly well towards the end of SE's time there. Tough start for Korona Kielce but maybe we can see something similar for Zator and co. 

It could be if he moves up, but as of now, I'd say his path is more Manjrekar James in Ukraine. Played well (so I heard) for a team and could've hypothetically moved up to Shaktar or Kyiv and those would've been really good moves. Nothing wrong with the progress Zator has made, but I think there's limits to being a very good player on a very bad team in Poland. Until that move happens, he's going to be in the mix for a last spot on the team.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

It could be if he moves up, but as of now, I'd say his path is more Manjrekar James in Ukraine. Played well (so I heard) for a team and could've hypothetically moved up to Shaktar or Kyiv and those would've been really good moves. Nothing wrong with the progress Zator has made, but I think there's limits to being a very good player on a very bad team in Poland. Until that move happens, he's going to be in the mix for a last spot on the team.

Manjrekar James? 

You're cold as ice bro. That's mad disrespectful comparing him to James who hasn't even looked good in CPL while Zator continues to shine. I know what you're saying, but you can't really say he could have moved to Shaktar when the reality was he moved to Forge.

James played 13 games in Ukraine, earned 0 caps while playing in Ukraine, and then joined CPL

Zator has played 25 games in Poland, earned 2 caps while playing in Poland (and was called to multiple camps), and is showing no signs of slowing down or going backwards. 

So yeah, I totally disagree he's on the Manjrekar James path....

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:05 AM, Obinna said:

Manjrekar James? 

You're cold as ice bro. That's mad disrespectful comparing him to James who hasn't even looked good in CPL while Zator continues to shine. I know what you're saying, but you can't really say he could have moved to Shaktar when the reality was he moved to Forge.

James played 13 games in Ukraine, earned 0 caps while playing in Ukraine, and then joined CPL

Zator has played 25 games in Poland, earned 2 caps while playing in Poland (and was called to multiple camps), and is showing no signs of slowing down or going backwards. 

So yeah, I totally disagree he's on the Manjrekar James path....

Manjrekar had his entire loan stymied by the war. Then had to sit for months. It isn't fair to count games and compare when one team had bombs dropping on their heads, I think you know this. 

A full season in a peacetime Ukrainian top flight is a higher level than Poland. Manjrekar playing a full year in Ukraine would put him ahead of both Cornelius and Zator. Odessa stadium is twice the size as Kielce's, the current transfer value is similar but that's only because most top nationals and foreigners have left the Ukrainian league.

Odessa is now fourth ahead of Dynamo Kiev, previously ended 10th, 13th, was in second two years after relegation, relegated the previous season, then was 8th, 11th...

He hasn't been great in CPL, true, but he was thrown into it as a stopgap, it doesn't seem his head is into it. Wero Diaz seems similar, Borges even. You can't say coming back has favoured them.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Manjrekar had his entire loan stymied by the war. Then had to sit for months. It isn't fair to count games and compare when one team had bombs dropping on their heads, I think you know this. 

A full season in a peacetime Ukrainian top flight is a higher level than Poland. Manjrekar playing a full year in Poland would put him ahead of both Cornelius and Zator. Odessa stadium is twice the size as Kielce's, the current transfer value is similar but that's only because most top nationals and foreigners have left the Ukrainian league.

He hasn't been great in CPL, true, but he was thrown into it as a stopgap, it doesn't seem his head is into it.

The only thing relevant here is this.

James has had a full season playing at home to figure it out. Maybe he's just not that good? If James was the level of player Zator is he would have landed somewhere better than the CPL, like Zator did, or at least would have played well in the CPL, like Zator did. 

I think it's pretty clear Zator is a much better player than James at this point. To say Zator is on the same path as James is wildly off the mark. 

Was James was a victim of circumstance? Sure. You may feel bad for him and give him the benefit of the doubt and theorize that right now James would be matching Zator had the war not happened, but if we are both being honest his poor play with Forge should absolutely remove that benefit of doubt. 

[blueseeka]

Zator isn't making the CMNT anytime soon. He had two appearances for the MNT and they couldn't of gone worse. There are multiple MLS CB players that will get a chance before he does again

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

The only thing relevant here is this.

James has had a full season playing at home to figure it out. Maybe he's just not that good? If James was the level of player Zator is he would have landed somewhere better than the CPL, like Zator did, or at least would have played well in the CPL, like Zator did. 

I think it's pretty clear Zator is a much better player than James at this point. To say Zator is on the same path as James is wildly off the mark. 

Was James was a victim of circumstance? Sure. You may feel bad for him and give him the benefit of the doubt and theorize that right now James would be matching Zator had the war not happened, but if we are both being honest his poor play with Forge should absolutely remove that benefit of doubt. 

I find your line of argument forced, the effort you are putting into taking down one player does not really correspond to the value of the guy you want to defend. 

Zator has never played in a league of the quality of Ukraine, or Denmark for that matter. Manjrekar went from Sigma to second tier Hungary, to Denmark, transferred up to a better Danish team, then has had loan spells, true. But to top flight Greece, then top flight Ukraine. Denmark, Greece, Ukraine, all better than CPL or Poland.

Btw, just checked, the last move to Ukraine league was a free transfer after having been on loan there from Velje. Meaning that after the loan, when he was out of contract, they signed him. Zator hasn't even sniffed such club success in his career.

The only step back has been these last few months at Forge, which is a reset after having most of a season wiped out by a war.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I find your entire line of argument tendentious, the effort you are putting into taking down one player does not correspond to the value of the guy you want to defend. 

This is the Zator thread 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Aird25 said:

This is the Zator thread 

Please feel free to read it.

If you're concerned about my talking about James, his name was brought up by a distinguished poster, and that was responded to by an equally storied member of the board. I then chirped in on the subject of comparing them, which puts me oddly on point.

Thanks for your understanding.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I find your line of argument forced, the effort you are putting into taking down one player does not really correspond to the value of the guy you want to defend. 

Zator has never played in a league of the quality of Ukraine, or Denmark for that matter. Manjrekar went from Sigma to second tier Hungary, to Denmark, transferred up to a better Danish team, then has had loan spells, true. But to top flight Greece, then top flight Ukraine. Denmark, Greece, Ukraine, all better than CPL or Poland.

Btw, just checked, the last move to Ukraine league was a free transfer after having been on loan there from Velje. Meaning that after the loan, when he was out of contract, they signed him. Zator hasn't even sniffed such club success in his career.

The only step back has been these last few months at Forge, which is a reset after having most of a season wiped out by a war.

Maybe you are projecting and see a forced argument because you are forcing your argument? I mean, why are you so keen to excuse James here for his poor play? And why are you bringing up the previous leagues he played in? It's not very relevant.

You keep dancing around the truth of the matter, which is that James is not very good anymore, is not a realistic NT option, has already peaked years ago, and is currently moving backwards.

Zator is moving forwards and doesn't seem to have peaked yet, unless I am misinformed. He is getting calls to the NT and as long as he's playing well for Korona Kielce I think he'll be hanging around the fringes of the pool.

I'll extend an Olive Branch - Zator's next move could theoretically be a backwards one, possibly even back to the CPL. I fully acknowledge that.

But can you likewise acknowledge that he's more likely to improve his career than regress in the next 12 months? 

[Bigandy]

I don't think the comparison is that james is a better player than zator currently. I think theres merit in looking at james trajectory prior to the war as a benchmark for zator. Zator has yet to reach the peak that James has (from a club perspective). It's hard to argue which player is the best during their overall careers as zats has never really been tested at the same quality as james. Perhaps when zats moves up, he gets exposed and never reaches the club quality of james. 

Although this is such a small sample size, one could argue that he got exposed in both 2 minute cameos hes had for CMNT. 

I'd 100% take zats over james but this all started with comparing zats to staq and thats wildly off the mark IMO. 

[InglewoodJack]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:05 PM, Obinna said:

Manjrekar James? 

You're cold as ice bro. That's mad disrespectful comparing him to James who hasn't even looked good in CPL while Zator continues to shine. I know what you're saying, but you can't really say he could have moved to Shaktar when the reality was he moved to Forge.

James played 13 games in Ukraine, earned 0 caps while playing in Ukraine, and then joined CPL

Zator has played 25 games in Poland, earned 2 caps while playing in Poland (and was called to multiple camps), and is showing no signs of slowing down or going backwards. 

So yeah, I totally disagree he's on the Manjrekar James path....

I think that at this point Zator clears James by several degrees, but my point was more that if we evaluate Zator based on the type of move that maybe might happen if things go well, then we should've been banging our fists on the table demanding for a James call up last year. If Zator maxes out as a very good defender on a very bad team in a relatively poor league, he'll just be the end of the bench depth player he currently is which is good but not all that special for our squad. I also think the James comp is more accurate than Eustaquio because Pacos and other lower Portuguese teams are better than weak Polish teams. Eustaquio was very much firmly in the squad before he went to Porto.

If w