Dominick Zator

[Obinna]

32 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I don't think the comparison is that james is a better player than zator currently. I think theres merit in looking at james trajectory prior to the war as a benchmark for zator. Zator has yet to reach the peak that James has (from a club perspective). It's hard to argue which player is the best during their overall careers as zats has never really been tested at the same quality as james. Perhaps when zats moves up, he gets exposed and never reaches the club quality of james. 

Although this is such a small sample size, one could argue that he got exposed in both 2 minute cameos hes had for CMNT. 

I'd 100% take zats over james but this all started with comparing zats to staq and thats wildly off the mark IMO. 

Let me just say (and this one's for you @Unnamed Trialist) that I believe James definitely had a better career than Zator to date. There's really no comparison. He's played 17 times for Canada. He's played in multiple European leagues, all of which are similar or arguably better than Poland, and he's played in the Champions League. 

However, James has clearly peaked and at the age of 30 has already started to decline based on the evidence we see, with all due respect to him. Everytime I see him with Forge it seems like he's turning the ball over in dangerous areas. He's not going to make a step up from here I don't think, but I hope I am wrong. Maybe he turns it around in the playoffs, balls out in 2024, and earns an MLS contract in 2025, or goes back to Scandanavia to Norwary or some other level better than CPL, but odds are right now he doesn't. Once his play improves I will re-evaluate, but I have to base my analysis on how things are not on how I want them to be.   

And all that was why I took issue with suggestion Zator is on the James path. To me that means I should expect Zator at 30 years old (he's 29 now) to go back to CPL AND play below the expectations of him, which would put him on the "James path", because that's what James has done. I would be pretty surprised if Zator was in CPL this time next year (and playing badly).

Granted the comparison to Eustaquio's career path is probably uncalled for and definitely premature, so I will hold my hand up there and say that comparison shouldn't have been made, but at least Zator (like Eustaquio) is progressing in his career, not regressing like James is (which is why I made the comparison in the first place.

And to be honest at the start of this debate I would have been bold enough to say his next move will be upward and not backward, but I won't put out that hot take now - because anything can happen. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Obinna

[Bigandy]

17 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Let me just say (and this one's for you @Unnamed Trialist) that I believe James definitely had a better career than Zator to date. There's really no comparison. He's played 17 times for Canada. He's played in multiple European leagues, all of which are similar or arguably better than Poland, and he's played in the Champions League. 

However, James has clearly peaked and at the age of 30 has already started to decline based on the evidence we see, with all due respect to him. Everytime I see him with Forge it seems like he's turning the ball over in dangerous areas. He's not going to make a step up from here I don't think, but I hope I am wrong. Maybe he turns it around in the playoffs, balls out in 2024, and earns an MLS contract in 2025, or goes back to Scandanavia to Norwary or some other level better than CPL, but odds are right now he doesn't. Once his play improves I will re-evaluate, but I have to base my analysis on how things are not on how I want them to be.   

And all that was why I took issue with suggestion Zator is on the James path. To me that means I should expect Zator at 30 years old (he's 29 now) to go back to CPL AND play below the expectations of him, which would put him on the "James path", because that's what James has done. I would be pretty surprised if Zator was in CPL this time next year (and playing badly).

Granted the comparison to Eustaquio's career path is probably uncalled for and definitely premature, so I will hold my hand up there and say that comparison shouldn't have been made, but at least Zator (like Eustaquio) is progressing in his career, not regressing like James is (which is why I made the comparison in the first place.

And to be honest at the start of this debate I would have been bold enough to say his next move will be upward and not backward, but I won't put out that hot take now - because anything can happen. 

I agree with all of this. 

I would say the comparison of zator to james should only consider james up until the war started. Both on upwards trajectories in smallish teams around europe.  

At this point, you would expect zator to move up within the polish league at the least..... 

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think that at this point Zator clears James by several degrees, but my point was more that if we evaluate Zator based on the type of move that maybe might happen if things go well, then we should've been banging our fists on the table demanding for a James call up last year. If Zator maxes out as a very good defender on a very bad team in a relatively poor league, he'll just be the end of the bench depth player he currently is which is good but not all that special for our squad. I also think the James comp is more accurate than Eustaquio because Pacos and other lower Portuguese teams are better than weak Polish teams. Eustaquio was very much firmly in the squad before he went to Porto.

If w

If this was your point then I respectfully disagree with it.

First of all, I wouldn't call it banging fits on tables, but there were people on this board who were keeping Manjrekar's name alive in the NT pool discussions, so there's that.

More importantly though, people were clamouring for Zator because Johnston had no natural backup and fanbase seen Zator as the solution (and it was pretty much uninamous). The case for Zator was being demonstrated weekly as his arrival coincided with the clubs fortunes dramatically reversing as Korona Kielce went from relegation favourites in January to 13th place finishers in May, and Zator was named player/defender of the year for his club (can't recall which it was). 

James may have played well in Ukraine but he was never going to have the fanbase banging their fists on the table like we collectively did for Zator. 

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If this was your point then I respectfully disagree with it.

First of all, I wouldn't call it banging fits on tables, but there were people on this board who were keeping Manjrekar's name alive in the NT pool discussions, so there's that.

More importantly though, people were clamouring for Zator because Johnston had no natural backup and fanbase seen Zator as the solution (and it was pretty much uninamous). The case for Zator was being demonstrated weekly as his arrival coincided with the clubs fortunes dramatically reversing as Korona Kielce went from relegation favourites in January to 13th place finishers in May, and Zator was named player/defender of the year for his club (can't recall which it was). 

James may have played well in Ukraine but he was never going to have the fanbase banging their fists on the table like we collectively did for Zator. 

I wouldnt say it was close to being unanimous at all.... The only time I have somewhat considered him as an option has been when ZMG, Bombito, Heibert, waterman and mcnaughton have all become viable/semiviable options. 

Hes a CPL feel good story so he gets the fanbase recognition over james. That doesnt justify or negate the quality of either player. However, I would say that the spirit of @InglewoodJack point is that the fanbase should bang their fists for james based on the merit of his potential move (if we do the same for zator). Obviously fans pick favourites and james would never win over zator. Who has ever heard of a nomadic hungarian based CB vs a CPL alumni hero. 

[InglewoodJack]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If this was your point then I respectfully disagree with it.

First of all, I wouldn't call it banging fits on tables, but there were people on this board who were keeping Manjrekar's name alive in the NT pool discussions, so there's that.

More importantly though, people were clamouring for Zator because Johnston had no natural backup and fanbase seen Zator as the solution (and it was pretty much uninamous). The case for Zator was being demonstrated weekly as his arrival coincided with the clubs fortunes dramatically reversing as Korona Kielce went from relegation favourites in January to 13th place finishers in May, and Zator was named player/defender of the year for his club (can't recall which it was). 

James may have played well in Ukraine but he was never going to have the fanbase banging their fists on the table like we collectively did for Zator. 

Banging on the desk was somewhat tongue in cheek- we seem to demand every player that looks fairly decent in a European league to get camp invites- thinking of Zator but also of Loturi, and to a lesser extent Richie Ennin and Batyrev in Russia. Zator was a good call for us- he is a good player, it is important to get ex-CPLers involved on the NT, and we need as much CB help as we can get. This all originally came from me falling for @Bigandy's sarcasm about people criticizing Zator- exactly like I am right now- because while I think what he's doing right now is great, to be a big player for Canada, he needs to at least end up at one of the big Polish clubs, if not to an even bigger team in a bigger league, and until that move happens, I won't bank on it. For now, he's a good depth piece for when we're missing starters, he comes when called upon, and he does have a really cool story, so I root for him.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Maybe you are projecting and see a forced argument because you are forcing your argument? I mean, why are you so keen to excuse James here for his poor play? And why are you bringing up the previous leagues he played in? It's not very relevant.

You keep dancing around the truth of the matter, which is that James is not very good anymore, is not a realistic NT option, has already peaked years ago, and is currently moving backwards.

Zator is moving forwards and doesn't seem to have peaked yet, unless I am misinformed. He is getting calls to the NT and as long as he's playing well for Korona Kielce I think he'll be hanging around the fringes of the pool.

I'll extend an Olive Branch - Zator's next move could theoretically be a backwards one, possibly even back to the CPL. I fully acknowledge that.

But can you likewise acknowledge that he's more likely to improve his career than regress in the next 12 months? 

Neither sure that Zator will likely progress nor that James has come up lame, forever. 

As I say, and others, it's not the wild laughable comparison you are making it out to be.

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I agree with all of this. 

I would say the comparison of zator to james should only consider james up until the war started. Both on upwards trajectories in smallish teams around europe.  

At this point, you would expect zator to move up within the polish league at the least..... 

I'll be frank and say the reason why he left his club shouldn't matter. I see no connection between the reason he left and his poor play today. Osase deRosario also left a Ukranian Premier League team for the same reason and it hasn't stopped him from being very good in the CPL. 

Sam Adekugbe left his club due to a natural disaster that literally broke his club and killed his clubmate and good friend, so if we see a dramatic fall off I would understand pinning it on that - but Sam hasn't had a dramatic drop off. 

13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I wouldnt say it was close to being unanimous at all.... The only time I have somewhat considered him as an option has been when ZMG, Bombito, Heibert, waterman and mcnaughton have all become viable/semiviable options. 

Hes a CPL feel good story so he gets the fanbase recognition over james. That doesnt justify or negate the quality of either player. However, I would say that the spirit of @InglewoodJack point is that the fanbase should bang their fists for james based on the merit of his potential move (if we do the same for zator). Obviously fans pick favourites and james would never win over zator. Who has ever heard of a nomadic hungarian based CB vs a CPL alumni hero. 

ZMG, Bombito and Heibert weren't even on the NT radar when Zator emerged in January. Nobody knew ZMG was even eligible. Bombito was a college player, and Heibert was playing in the USL. 

Zator is a feel good story for sure, but there'd be no feel good story if he wasn't playing well. It sounds like you are suggesting that James would have gotten comparable fan recognition if he previously played in the CPL, which I strongly believe is wrong.

I think the fanbase cared more that his profile was akin to Johnston's. That was the primary case for Zator. The fact he came from CPL was simply a nice bonus.

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Neither sure that Zator will likely progress nor that James has come up lame, forever. 

As I say, and others, it's not the wild laughable comparison you are making it out to be.

Whether it's a laughable comparison or not will be revealed in time. James could turn it around, but he may not. Zator could progress from here, but he may not. Fair for you to say you are not sure on either, because anything can happen.

James has played 118 matches combined in the Greek (19), Hungarian (25), Ukranian (18) and Danish (14) top flights.

For sake of argument can we split the difference and say they combine to a co-efficent of 19? And can we agree that Poland's co-efficent of 21 is not much different? And can we then agree, for sake of argument, the level Zator plays at today is more or less the level James played at in Europe?

If we can agree here, for sake of argument, can we just watch how many Polish top flight games Zator racks up?

He's at 25 right now, so he's got 93 matches to go to match James. Can we agree to call him closing this gap career "progress"? And so long as James remains in CPL or worse, can we agree to calling that "coming up lame" as you put it?

If we can agree then we have a way to quantify the bolded part of your post.

[InglewoodJack]

FWIW- James is currently the second highest rated player on Forge and by far their highest rated defender. Not saying that’s the be all end all or anything, nor that playing well for Forge is the biggest accomplishment around, but Zator’s highest CPL rating over a season is 7.08 and James is currently at a 7.2.

 

Per Sofascore, he’s actually the third highest rated CB in the CPL behind Didic and Nimick. Leads all CBs in accurate passes per game. His numbers don’t look all that different from Zator’s before he went to Poland. Who’s to say he wouldn’t look good in a better situation?

Edited September 27, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

FWIW- James is currently the second highest rated player on Forge and by far their highest rated defender. Not saying that’s the be all end all or anything, nor that playing well for Forge is the biggest accomplishment around, but Zator’s highest CPL rating over a season is 7.08 and James is currently at a 7.2.

Good to know 👍 Are these ratings out of 10?

[InglewoodJack]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good to know 👍 Are these ratings out of 10?

More or less, though it's very rare to find a player finish a season over 8- an 8 rating would probably send the player directly to Belgium or the Championship, if not even higher.  Highest rating in the league last year was Brett Levis at 7.45 and the year before, Marco Bustos at 7.8.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

More or less, though it's very rare to find a player finish a season over 8- an 8 rating would probably send the player directly to Belgium or the Championship, if not even higher.  Highest rating in the league last year was Brett Levis at 7.45 and the year before, Marco Bustos at 7.8.

Interesting. Appreciate you sharing that and maybe I haven been harsher on James than necessary. 

[InglewoodJack]

10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Interesting. Appreciate you sharing that and maybe I haven been harsher on James than necessary. 

I haven’t had the chance to watch enough Forge this year to see if he meets the eye test, and I’ve definitely seen games where some of our players’ performances don’t line up to the rating the apps give them, but as far as the catch all stats go, he’s been doing quite well in the CPL this year.

[Obinna]

39 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

FWIW- James is currently the second highest rated player on Forge and by far their highest rated defender. Not saying that’s the be all end all or anything, nor that playing well for Forge is the biggest accomplishment around, but Zator’s highest CPL rating over a season is 7.08 and James is currently at a 7.2.

 

Per Sofascore, he’s actually the third highest rated CB in the CPL behind Didic and Nimick. Leads all CBs in accurate passes per game. His numbers don’t look all that different from Zator’s before he went to Poland. Who’s to say he wouldn’t look good in a better situation?

I think it's also worth mentioning that Zator found himself the perfect situation. He is Polish decent and couldn't have picked a better destination to give Europe another go. I guess we could say that if James had an equivalent opportunity where he knew the language and culture, he could hypothetically fit in and do well like Zator. The problem for me is that it's hypothetical and you could say the same about any player. For all we know though, next season James is back in Europe playing in somewhere in Scandanavia or his old stomping grounds - Hungary. If he's really playing that well in the CPL it's definitely possible. Clearly the rankings suggest he's a top CB in the league, which surprises me considering he really does seem to make a lot of mistakes based on what I have seen, but I am also not a Forge fan and haven't watched him as such.

 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I'll be frank and say the reason why he left his club shouldn't matter. I see no connection between the reason he left and his poor play today. Osase deRosario also left a Ukranian Premier League team for the same reason and it hasn't stopped him from being very good in the CPL. 

Sam Adekugbe left his club due to a natural disaster that literally broke his club and killed his clubmate and good friend, so if we see a dramatic fall off I would understand pinning it on that - but Sam hasn't had a dramatic drop off. 

ZMG, Bombito and Heibert weren't even on the NT radar when Zator emerged in January. Nobody knew ZMG was even eligible. Bombito was a college player, and Heibert was playing in the USL. 

Zator is a feel good story for sure, but there'd be no feel good story if he wasn't playing well. It sounds like you are suggesting that James would have gotten comparable fan recognition if he previously played in the CPL, which I strongly believe is wrong.

I think the fanbase cared more that his profile was akin to Johnston's. That was the primary case for Zator. The fact he came from CPL was simply a nice bonus.

Your timing is off from a CMNT standpoint. 

Zator moved to poland in december. He got his call up for CMNT in march. Hiebert also got a call up and was preferred to zator as a sub. 

However, I was talking about my personal timing. I didnt consider zator a realistic option in the march window and he was only called up due to a real lack of depth... he was never likely to play (miller was injured, I think waterman and mcnaughton had issues too?). His recent play has put him in discussions vs a guy like waterman. But now we have ZMG, bombito etc.

I am suggesting that a player who is an inaugural CPL player will have wider name recognition than a european nomad. 

I would also say that hes a different player to Johnston. I havnt really heard the fan base comparing the 2? 

[costarg]

The recent posts and comparisons remind me of a great post and point from @Obinna about two years ago.  I believe it was comparing CANMNT talent to USMNT.  Someone was going on about the US having guys on Chelsea, Barcelona and Juventus vs us with players on Lille, Pacos, MLS and one Bayern.  The main point being it's not so much the league or strength of the team, but the importance of said player to his team.  Having a bench player on Barca or Chelsea isn't as valuable as having a dominant player on a lesser side and/or league.  

Going by that logic, I don't remember James being a major important piece on one of his teams, yet Zator seems to be really important to his.  That probably says something.

 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Whether it's a laughable comparison or not will be revealed in time. James could turn it around, but he may not. Zator could progress from here, but he may not. Fair for you to say you are not sure on either, because anything can happen.

James has played 118 matches combined in the Greek (19), Hungarian (25), Ukranian (18) and Danish (14) top flights.

For sake of argument can we split the difference and say they combine to a co-efficent of 19? And can we agree that Poland's co-efficent of 21 is not much different? And can we then agree, for sake of argument, the level Zator plays at today is more or less the level James played at in Europe?

If we can agree here, for sake of argument, can we just watch how many Polish top flight games Zator racks up?

He's at 25 right now, so he's got 93 matches to go to match James. Can we agree to call him closing this gap career "progress"? And so long as James remains in CPL or worse, can we agree to calling that "coming up lame" as you put it?

If we can agree then we have a way to quantify the bolded part of your post.

I think theres some flaws in your arguments.  To average out a players coefficients is not fair. Imagine averaging out corbeanus coefficient after playing low in the english pyramid. It would unjustly paint a picture about his ceiling.  (Theres obviously flaws with my comaprison as well)

The comparison basically says, because james played in hungary, his avg coefficient is lowered enough that hes close to zators polish level. Therefore, zator would likely be able to perform equal or better to james. 

The flaw is that james actually played in higher co efficient leagues. His ceiling was high enough to go there. There's nothing from the data you presented to suggest that zator could go to a top 15 league. 

Zator could rack up 500 polish games and still never be good enough for the danish top flight.  It's all small margins, but margins nontheless.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

59 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think theres some flaws in your arguments.  To average out a players coefficients is not fair. Imagine averaging out corbeanus coefficient after playing low in the english pyramid. It would unjustly paint a picture about his ceiling.  (Theres obviously flaws with my comaprison as well)

The comparison basically says, because james played in hungary, his avg coefficient is lowered enough that hes close to zators polish level. Therefore, zator would likely be able to perform equal or better to james. 

The flaw is that james actually played in higher co efficient leagues. His ceiling was high enough to go there. There's nothing from the data you presented to suggest that zator could go to a top 15 league. 

Zator could rack up 500 polish games and still never be good enough for the danish top flight.  It's all small margins, but margins nontheless.  

Was looking at Transfermarkt values and Kielce, Odessa and Velje Boldklub, where James was on contract (and Issey played too), had very similar player values. In the 7-8 million range.

Manjrekar has an agent based in Alicante and I wouldn't be surprised if he goes back to Europe, unless he's happy to play out his career closer to home. 

And to be fair to @Obinna, I could see Zator shifting up slightly in his career.

[Obinna]

Just now, Bigandy said:

Your timing is off from a CMNT standpoint. 

Zator moved to poland in december. He got his call up for CMNT in march. Hiebert also got a call up and was preferred to zator as a sub. 

Right you are sir. It was the same window him and Heibert got called together.

I personally never saw Heibert coming in as indication he is "ahead" of Zator in any sense, including as a sub in the match.

First of all, Heibert was a last-minute call up due to Miller being injured. Heibert never made the original sqaud, like Zator did, but nonetheless was a great like-for-like Miller replacement since he is a left sided player, mostly a CB but lately a LB. Zator is a right sided player, a right-footed CB who can and has played RB, not a direct competitor with Heibert, so to say he was prefered to Zator is not something I agree with. 

Secondly, Heibert came into match as an injury sub for Kennedy, who was playing middle of a back 3, but had to be taken off. Cornelius then moved in the middle and Heibert moved into Derek's left spot. Again, not the moment for Zator, and clearly a situational preference for Heibert, not a general preference for Heibert (Heibert hasn't been called since).

57 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

However, I was talking about my personal timing. I didnt consider zator a realistic option in the march window and he was only called up due to a real lack of depth... he was never likely to play (miller was injured, I think waterman and mcnaughton had issues too?). His recent play has put him in discussions vs a guy like waterman. But now we have ZMG, bombito etc.

Thanks for clarifying and I am fine with that. I am with you here. I would have been equally surprised to see Zator as I was to see Heibert - but again Heibert was situational and if Johnston was the one who got injured we'd probably be talking about Zator's debut in March and not Heibert's.

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I am suggesting that a player who is an inaugural CPL player will have wider name recognition than a european nomad. 

I would also say that hes a different player to Johnston. I havnt really heard the fan base comparing the 2? 

This shocks me. I am sure if we go back through this thread we'll find multiple posters drawing the comparison. I know it was not just me saying "Look, Zator is playing RB, has played RB and is a natural CB, and now he's playing in Poland, couldn't this guy be the back up for Johnston we've been missing"?

At the very least you can go see Josh and Alex on One Soccer consistenly clamouring for Zator to be called in their depth charts - and no I don't think it's because he played in CPL...I simply think that's a matter of player with a similar profile playing in a European top flight...where we have so few players doing so. 

Finally I should add that nobody is or was saying Zator is a Johnston clone, but do you remember how excited we were for Waterman? It was partially because he showed he could play both RB and CB and was thus looking to be the answer to the question of who is Johnston's backup. That wasn't because Waterman came from CPL, it was just because he emerged as a possible solution. Same for Zator...at least in my mind. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I think theres some flaws in your arguments.  To average out a players coefficients is not fair. Imagine averaging out corbeanus coefficient after playing low in the english pyramid. It would unjustly paint a picture about his ceiling.  (Theres obviously flaws with my comaprison as well)

The comparison basically says, because james played in hungary, his avg coefficient is lowered enough that hes close to zators polish level. Therefore, zator would likely be able to perform equal or better to james. 

The flaw is that james actually played in higher co efficient leagues. His ceiling was high enough to go there. There's nothing from the data you presented to suggest that zator could go to a top 15 league. 

Zator could rack up 500 polish games and still never be good enough for the danish top flight.  It's all small margins, but margins nontheless.  

We could also say James was not really good enough for the Danish league. He only played 14 games and was sent away on loan to the Danish 2nd tier. He also had a Greek loan, which was probably an attempt to shop him abroad. He played 7 games in half a season there. 

Then he signed to a smaller danish club and again was sent away on loan, this time to Ukraine, where he supposedly played well, even though I don't remember him being a major piece, which is what @costarg also pointed out. 

In fact I would say that across all the European leagues James played in he was never a major piece for any club, which would be to say it's not even fair to give James the credit for a combined co-efficent similar to Zators. I know, small sample size for Zator relative to James, but it's still worth pointing out. 

I would also go out on a limb and say that anyone racking up 500 polish games would probably be able to play in Denmark. If you play that many games in a league you probably could have gone to a slightly better league and done fine. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Was looking at Transfermarkt values and Kielce, Odessa and Velje Boldklub, where James was on contract (and Issey played too), had very similar player values. In the 7-8 million range.

Manjrekar has an agent based in Alicante and I wouldn't be surprised if he goes back to Europe, unless he's happy to play out his career closer to home. 

And to be fair to @Obinna, I could see Zator shifting up slightly in his career.

Indeed, all these clubs are roughly the same level and I think we'd be splitting hairs to suggest otherwise. The main difference I see is that Zator seems to be more important to his club than James was to any of those clubs. 

I hope James goes back to Europe but I wouldn't fault him for settling into the CPL close to where he grew up. No shame in that. Zator meanwhile could possibly take a step up, but to be honest he's probably fine where he is. I mean, if he has the chance he should take it, but I think success for Zator would be playing another two, three, or four years in the Polish top flight in general. I see no reason to think he couldn't do that.

He could stay with Korona Kielce from now until 2026 and remain in the NT pool so long as he plays well and his club doesn't get releagated, but if he transfers up to a stronger club within Poland that would obviously improve his chances to get more NT caps, but that said maybe he could stay with his team and help grow it into a Europa contender, or a title contender, and that would be just as good for his national team asiprations. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Obinna

[Obinna]

@Bigandy Go back to page 7 of this thread and you'll see multiple posters likening Zator to Johnston (and with good reason).

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Right you are sir. It was the same window him and Heibert got called together.

I personally never saw Heibert coming in as indication he is "ahead" of Zator in any sense, including as a sub in the match.

First of all, Heibert was a last-minute call up due to Miller being injured. Heibert never made the original sqaud, like Zator did, but nonetheless was a great like-for-like Miller replacement since he is a left sided player, mostly a CB but lately a LB. Zator is a right sided player, a right-footed CB who can and has played RB, not a direct competitor with Heibert, so to say he was prefered to Zator is not something I agree with. 

Secondly, Heibert came into match as an injury sub for Kennedy, who was playing middle of a back 3, but had to be taken off. Cornelius then moved in the middle and Heibert moved into Derek's left spot. Again, not the moment for Zator, and clearly a situational preference for Heibert, not a general preference for Heibert (Heibert hasn't been called since).

This shocks me. I am sure if we go back through this thread we'll find multiple posters drawing the comparison. I know it was not just me saying "Look, Zator is playing RB, has played RB and is a natural CB, and now he's playing in Poland, couldn't this guy be the back up for Johnston we've been missing"?

At the very least you can go see Josh and Alex on One Soccer consistenly clamouring for Zator to be called in their depth charts - and no I don't think it's because he played in CPL...I simply think that's a matter of player with a similar profile playing in a European top flight...where we have so few players doing so. 

Finally I should add that nobody is or was saying Zator is a Johnston clone, but do you remember how excited we were for Waterman? It was partially because he showed he could play both RB and CB and was thus looking to be the answer to the question of who is Johnston's backup. That wasn't because Waterman came from CPL, it was just because he emerged as a possible solution. Same for Zator...at least in my mind. 

Heibert/zator sub: 
I actually remember posting about how the heibert sub was indicative of the depth chart after that game. With Kennedy going off injured, we needed a CB to fill in the middle. The most logical option would be to try and do a like for like sub. Zats fits the bill at central CB better than heibert. However, we shifted our defence around, moved cornelius and brought on heibert. That shifting only happens if you dont trust the next man up. (we also didnt trust cornelius at central CB during qualifying so putting him centrally in this game was quite the indication of how far down zats is viewed imo).

Johnston comparisons:
I looked at page 7 and only saw one comment that zator might sub in for the suspended johnston. Am I missing something?

Also, are you talking about player profiles or just the fact that both players can play CB and RB. I think the have very different profiles. Zator would never play at wingback at a decent level. He looks like a defensive fullback/CB playing fb when he plays RB. Johnston looks like a fullback playing CB when hes in a back 3.  I would never set up my team with the expectation that zator and johnston offer very similar traits to the team. 

Waterman: 
He was another player I wasnt excited about in any serious way. Its great to have him at our weakest position but he was never seriously considered to play at RB for CMNT. His quality at CB is also questionable. 
 

[Bigandy]

52 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Bigandy Go back to page 7 of this thread and you'll see multiple posters likening Zator to Johnston (and with good reason).

On page 6 Im seeing a post comparing zator to vitoria and described as a "CB playing rb".  The only mentions of johnston is that zator could become rcb and free up johnston as a rwb or that a cb playing rb sounds like the style of player who could back up johnston. 

[Aird25]

Another man of the match performance followed by pages of people explaining why he isn't good. This is truly a bizarre phenomenon. It was even predicted

On 9/25/2023 at 7:07 AM, Bigandy said:

It's a shame that people on this board will criticize him when he's consistently putting in good performances..........