1984 - THE SPONSONS RULE ALL

[matty]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Sorry matty I don't understand that comment.

But I do understand this: no fans = no ticket revenue = no sponsors = total failure.

No matter what the CSA may think, they cannot afford to ignore their fanbase or stomp off in a snit because those fans dare to criticize them. In the real world, if you ignore and piss off your customers you go bankrupt. It is a crying shame that the CSA are not subject to the market forces of the real world or they would be long gone and replaced by somebody who actually has a clue.

Vs are not everyone that shows up to games. Yes Vs are vocal but they're not everyone. Both teams drew well in 2016 and 2017 in home games (Montreal aside).

And the comments I'm talking about go beyond criticising the CSA and have gone into dark territory that many might not feel belongs on a site meant for wide spectrum of fans for a global sport.

SO says it isn't the CSA and that's good enough for me. There are other people it could be from backers to long time fans.

[Grizzly]

Jamie and I spoke for a long time today about the situation and I will try to clarify it as much as I can from my understanding. First of all it is not the CSA who is criticizing us. There are a lot of things going on in Canadian soccer with many groups and individuals involved such as CPL and many new clubs, Nations League, expansion of Voyageurs Cup eventually to a real competition involving all clubs like in other countries, growing interest in women's soccer, a possible World Cup etc. Jamie is trying to keep support in Canada unified under the Voyageurs banner with us being involved in all these ventures. One problem he runs into though is some of the people involved in these ventures may have been personally criticized on the forum or may not agree with some of the opinions expressed on here even if they are not specifically targeted at them personally.

The problem is the Voyageurs have traditionally been a fan forum in which free speech and criticism is encouraged which is something I really think we need to maintain. On the other hand people read the forum and read criticism of themselves or ideas they do not agree with and then consider that to be the position of the Voyageurs (even if not every post agrees with this position) and are reluctant to work with us. It does not matter if that is correct or fair or whether they properly interpret what is being said, it is their perception. We can say "fuck them" free speech is paramount but that may prevent us from doing a lot of things that could be positive for growing the game in Canada and playing our role in it.

One would hope there is a way to maintain the forum as a place for open discussion and criticism of what is happening with Canadian soccer but maybe we need to discuss how to do this without alienating many of the people we need to work with to grow both soccer and the Voyageurs.

[BCM]

1 hour ago, matty said:

Vs are not everyone that shows up to games. Yes Vs are vocal but they're not everyone. Both teams drew well in 2016 and 2017 in home games (Montreal aside).

And the comments I'm talking about go beyond criticising the CSA and have gone into dark territory that many might not feel belongs on a site meant for wide spectrum of fans for a global sport.

SO says it isn't the CSA and that's good enough for me. There are other people it could be from backers to long time fans.

I really only look at the MNT forums (occasionally MLS/CPL) but what am I missing about the "dark territory" and "politics". I see recent discussion of the CSA as a circus show and Herdman a clown, and a lot of soccer related discussion and debate. This is normal type stuff for a fan forum.

I haven't seen anything about Nazis, Trudeau, Harper, Trump, Tim Horton's, taking back Point Roberts by force or anything else which comes close to alienating a reasonable person and frequent visitor to sites on the web.

So I don't get it - @Grizzly @admin 

[matty]

1 minute ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I really only look at the MNT forums (occasionally MLS/CPL) but what am I missing about the "dark territory" and "politics". I see recent discussion of the CSA as a circus show and Herdman a clown, and a lot of soccer related discussion and debate. This is normal type stuff for a fan forum.

I haven't seen anything about Nazis, Trudeau, Harper, Trump, Tim Horton's, taking back Point Roberts by force or anything else which comes close to alienating a reasonable person and frequent visitor to sites on the web.

So I don't get it - @Grizzly @admin 

Did you read the Will Johnson thread when he was arrested? Thing got fairly messy. It's likely the softest example.

[Grizzly]

1 hour ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I really only look at the MNT forums (occasionally MLS/CPL) but what am I missing about the "dark territory" and "politics". I see recent discussion of the CSA as a circus show and Herdman a clown, and a lot of soccer related discussion and debate. This is normal type stuff for a fan forum.

I haven't seen anything about Nazis, Trudeau, Harper, Trump, Tim Horton's, taking back Point Roberts by force or anything else which comes close to alienating a reasonable person and frequent visitor to sites on the web.

So I don't get it - @Grizzly @admin 

I don't think there is anything on the forum that is particularly bad on a usual basis especially given the nature of forums to be a place where people complain and criticize things. On the other hand we are the ones doing the criticizing and those who get criticized may feel differently as the target of criticism. It is pretty easy to criticize someone you don't know and a lot harder to read criticism of yourself especially from a lot of people who don't know you and who may not know the whole story of the event they are criticizing. Plus different people have different levels of sensitivity to different things. We can say they shouldn't be so sensitive or they are interpreting things wrong but if they are also someone we need to work with on other projects we have to take their feelings and opinions into account even if we don't agree with them. Many people read what we post here who are important players in Canadian soccer. Many people also google themselves or certain issues and see a result where a criticism or opinion is expressed on the forum and "Those damn Voyageurs are on my ass again" or "Those Voyageurs have another shitty attitude towards x".  Often they may not read the whole thread or even the opinion being expressed to understand it properly or to realize it is one individuals opinion not the group as a whole but again what matters is not always what is true or philosophically correct but how people are perceiving things.

I think the problem is not the forum in itself but the conflict between having a forum and not pissing off people we are trying to work with on other projects. A lot of supporters groups have private forums for those reasons. However, the forum being public also attracts people to join and provides a lot of needed information that is not available anywhere else. I personally would like the forum to stay like it is but maybe there are some things we could do to avoid alienating many other people we need to work with in the Canadian soccer community.

[BCM]

3 hours ago, matty said:

Did you read the Will Johnson thread when he was arrested? Thing got fairly messy. It's likely the softest example.

 

59 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

I don't think there is anything on the forum that is particularly bad on a usual basis especially given the nature of forums to be a place where people complain and criticize things. On the other hand we are the ones doing the criticizing and those who get criticized may feel differently as the target of criticism. It is pretty easy to criticize someone you don't know and a lot harder to read criticism of yourself especially from a lot of people who don't know you and who may not know the whole story of the event they are criticizing. Plus different people have different levels of sensitivity to different things. We can say they shouldn't be so sensitive or they are interpreting things wrong but if they are also someone we need to work with on other projects we have to take their feelings and opinions into account even if we don't agree with them. Many people read what we post here who are important players in Canadian soccer. Many people also google themselves or certain issues and see a result where a criticism or opinion is expressed on the forum and "Those damn Voyageurs are on my ass again" or "Those Voyageurs have another shitty attitude towards x".  Often they may not read the whole thread or even the opinion being expressed to understand it properly or to realize it is one individuals opinion not the group as a whole but again what matters is not always what is true or philosophically correct but how people are perceiving things.

I think the problem is not the forum in itself but the conflict between having a forum and not pissing off people we are trying to work with on other projects. A lot of supporters groups have private forums for those reasons. However, the forum being public also attracts people to join and provides a lot of needed information that is not available anywhere else. I personally would like the forum to stay like it is but maybe there are some things we could do to avoid alienating many other people we need to work with in the Canadian soccer community.

In the abstract, I see your point but you're cutting it really close to the line -- forums are places for fans to celebrate and vent (in our case, vent 95% of the time). If a player is angry or upset at how V's (journalists or anyone else) criticisms their performance, or even comments on their actions, that should just be too bad for that player. Public figures expose themselves to the extra attention, and do so willingly (this is why it is very difficult in both Canada and the US for them to win an action for libel or defamation). If you're asking us to tone down criticism, or analysis, of a player's performance it is simply asking too much. This is a place to discuss and - rather importantly - debate and disagree.

Likewise, CSA decisions deserve scrutiny in the media and on forums. I don't believe the media has done their duty lately (always want that next scoop, ya see) and again I do not think the vast majority of critical comments have been extreme or over the top.

As for Will Johnson and Cyle Larin, again it's natural for everyone to have an opinion. Opinions clearly differ in society, and on this site. I follow one other fan website, for college basketball. The team has three players suspended for releasing video of a group sex party. The discussions there make everything I have seen here look extremely tame. 

This forum is an excellent place for a small group of diehards to come together for a cause. I donated a decent sum of money last year because I recognise its importance to the soccer community (and because I have learned a lot and benefited from the site). I really would hate to see it destroyed as a result of PCness or the potential possibility in partnering with X group in the future.

[Admin]

6 hours ago, dsqpr said:

The last bunch of posts are general comment on the performance of the CSA and have nothing to do with any "this".

If they are going out of their way to help us, great. While they are at it, maybe they could work on their communication and explain why OZ was fired and how Herdman was seemingly hired without any other candidates being considered or interviewed.

Sorry... I just keep seeing things about bringing back Sack the CSA shirts.    I see posts of it on the forums.    This is a bad idea, very bad. 

Now that is something the CSA will notice, and not like.  Some guy with a username can be indignant all he wants about his right to post that, but that could really hurt us.   I am not saying we jump two feet into the politics of soccer, but I do think that people should in some manner, and as a general rule on social media, comport themselves in a way that there is a human being at the other end of their comments.  There is a difference between being critical and being insane, and we will not work to stop either.   

Players, executives ect... they read the forum and the general opinion of us among people that run the game in this country is extremely low.  Humans have an innate bias towards the negative, and there is no shortage of it. Some of that negativity is very very old and we can't control that, we have been around a long time.  

With respect to the CSA, here are some things they do for us today, and some things we are working on with them.   There are some other things I can't talk about and that is not being secretive or trying to be a tease. 

• Getting access to a significant chunk of stadium inventory with enormous flexibility in selling it.  There is a ridiculous amount of trust involved here. 
• Participation in the Voyageurs cup presentation
• Promoting our viewing parties
• Stadium pre game access for tifo setup
• Game day access for cameras
• Setting up away game tickets & space with other venues not in Canada
• Stadium access for promoting the Voyageurs at Canada games & Canada Championship games.
• When the timing is right, arranging events for us the night before a game. 
• Arranging in stadium presentations of our awards
• Arranging space at 2026 & Confed cup if we work to build this over the next 8 years
• Arranging youth volunteer hours for high school students in leadership positions for both the Voyageurs and all supporters groups across the country.

 

 

[BCM]

23 minutes ago, admin said:

Sorry... I just keep seeing things about bringing back Sack the CSA shirts.    I see posts of it on the forums.    This is a bad idea, very bad. 

Now that is something the CSA will notice, and not like.  Some guy with a username can be indignant all he wants about his right to post that, but that could really hurt us.   I am not saying we jump two feet into the politics of soccer, but I do think that people should in some manner, and as a general rule on social media, comport themselves in a way that there is a human being at the other end of their comments.  There is a difference between being critical and being insane, and we will not work to stop either.   

Players, executives ect... they read the forum and the general opinion of us among people that run the game in this country is extremely low.  Humans have an innate bias towards the negative, and there is no shortage of it. Some of that negativity is very very old and we can't control that, we have been around a long time.  

With respect to the CSA, here are some things they do for us today, and some things we are working on with them.   There are some other things I can't talk about and that is not being secretive or trying to be a tease. 

• Getting access to a significant chunk of stadium inventory with enormous flexibility in selling it.  There is a ridiculous amount of trust involved here. 
• Participation in the Voyageurs cup presentation
• Promoting our viewing parties
• Stadium pre game access for tifo setup
• Game day access for cameras
• Setting up away game tickets & space with other venues not in Canada
• Stadium access for promoting the Voyageurs at Canada games & Canada Championship games.
• When the timing is right, arranging events for us the night before a game. 
• Arranging in stadium presentations of our awards
• Arranging space at 2026 & Confed cup if we work to build this over the next 8 years
• Arranging youth volunteer hours for high school students in leadership positions for both the Voyageurs and all supporters groups across the country.

 

 

The CSA fired the men's national team coach (who to date had some success on the pitch) without any stated reason and hired a coach with no qualifications in the men's game and without any shortlisting or interview process whatsoever. They have let the media report the reason, and I suggest dodged Canadian hiring transparency laws involving federal agencies by "promoting" or "reassigning" an existing staff member rather than open the post to externals. If you do not think there is anything to vent against or protest than you are too far gone to reason with, mate.  This is not the way a confederation that wants to be taken seriously, or maybe demands it, conducts itself.

I would also suggest that any confederation should be as a matter of course doing the things you list for the support group. I am not going to copy and paste from other supporter sites (US, Australia, etc), because you know damn well that's the case.

This is not to take away from the hard work you have spent in making all this happen. I appreciate the time and effort. But think about how hard we (as a collective) have worked for so little... and now we're asked to spare feelings and shut up about the way business is being conducted?!

[BuzzAndSting]

2 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

The CSA fired the men's national team coach (who to date had some success on the pitch) without any stated reason and hired a coach with no qualifications in the men's game and without any shortlisting or interview process whatsoever. They have let the media report the reason, and I suggest dodged Canadian hiring transparency laws involving federal agencies by "promoting" or "reassigning" an existing staff member rather than open the post to externals. If you do not think there is anything to vent against or protest than you are too far gone to reason with, mate.  This is not the way a confederation that wants to be taken seriously, or maybe demands it, conducts itself.

I would also suggest that any confederation should be as a matter of course doing the things you list for the support group. I am not going to copy and paste from other supporter sites (US, Australia, etc), because you know damn well that's the case.

This is not to take away from the hard work you have spent in making all this happen. I appreciate the time and effort. But think about how hard we (as a collective) have worked for so little... and now we're asked to spare feelings and shut up about the way business is being conducted?!

The Herdman hiring has been discussed ad nauseum, let’s move on.

I don’t believe anyone is saying you can’t vent or protest, just that we have to be aware of it’s repercussions when we do it and maybe be more mindful if we’re attacking a specific person or group.

[BuzzAndSting]

@admin @Grizzly Thanks for the explanation of the situation, I understand and it makes sense.

I trust the leadership of this group to make the best decisions and will continue to do so.

This forum has become more negative, more critical and definitely more bizarre over the last little while, to the point where it seems we’ve lost some very good contributors. If corrective action needs to take place to make this group more successful as a whole I fully support it.

[Admin]

27 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

The CSA fired the men's national team coach (who to date had some success on the pitch) without any stated reason and hired a coach with no qualifications in the men's game and without any shortlisting or interview process whatsoever. They have let the media report the reason, and I suggest dodged Canadian hiring transparency laws involving federal agencies by "promoting" or "reassigning" an existing staff member rather than open the post to externals. If you do not think there is anything to vent against or protest than you are too far gone to reason with, mate.  This is not the way a confederation that wants to be taken seriously, or maybe demands it, conducts itself.

I would also suggest that any confederation should be as a matter of course doing the things you list for the support group. I am not going to copy and paste from other supporter sites (US, Australia, etc), because you know damn well that's the case.

This is not to take away from the hard work you have spent in making all this happen. I appreciate the time and effort. But think about how hard we (as a collective) have worked for so little... and now we're asked to spare feelings and shut up about the way business is being conducted?!

Criticize all you want. No one has told you to shut up.  

Many federations do these things, many don't.  What is missing from your equation is they don't have to do it with us. 

[Grizzly]

2 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

 

In the abstract, I see your point but you're cutting it really close to the line -- forums are places for fans to celebrate and vent (in our case, vent 95% of the time). If a player is angry or upset at how V's (journalists or anyone else) criticisms their performance, or even comments on their actions, that should just be too bad for that player. Public figures expose themselves to the extra attention, and do so willingly (this is why it is very difficult in both Canada and the US for them to win an action for libel or defamation). If you're asking us to tone down criticism, or analysis, of a player's performance it is simply asking too much. This is a place to discuss and - rather importantly - debate and disagree.

Likewise, CSA decisions deserve scrutiny in the media and on forums. I don't believe the media has done their duty lately (always want that next scoop, ya see) and again I do not think the vast majority of critical comments have been extreme or over the top.

As for Will Johnson and Cyle Larin, again it's natural for everyone to have an opinion. Opinions clearly differ in society, and on this site. I follow one other fan website, for college basketball. The team has three players suspended for releasing video of a group sex party. The discussions there make everything I have seen here look extremely tame. 

This forum is an excellent place for a small group of diehards to come together for a cause. I donated a decent sum of money last year because I recognise its importance to the soccer community (and because I have learned a lot and benefited from the site). I really would hate to see it destroyed as a result of PCness or the potential possibility in partnering with X group in the future.

I pretty much agree with your opinion on this. Jamie and I had a very long phone conversation (circa 3 hours) about the issue yesterday and I pretty much said all of that to him. At the same time he explained to me some of the issues he is having and how some people react to the forum and the Voyageurs in general. Much of what he told me I had never really thought about before and it made sense. We also tried to think of some solutions to the problem and it is a very difficult issue, everything has advantages and disadvantages.

I think the most we can do is just ask people to understand what they post to some extent represents the Voyageurs and to try to be fair and balanced in criticisms instead of just angry ranting. If someone is such a proponent of free speech that they want to exercise their right to say what they want how they want then fine go to it of course within some reasonable boundaries. But I think most of us, myself included, can make an effort to criticize in a fair reasonable manner and as Jamie says with some cognizance that whoever being criticized is a human being and deserves some respect even if they are earning 3 million a year in a job in which public criticism is part of their profession.

As I said earlier I had not personally thought about some of the things Jamie told me and usually my modus operandi has been just post what I think (sometimes in a fairly blunt manner ) without too much reflection about how certain people might react to it. I also notice that with the players I have met or who I have contact with I am a bit easier on them because I see them more as people I know than abstract pieces on a soccer chess board. It is a bias for sure but maybe one I should try to extend to the players with whom I have no contact with which is the majority of players. That does not mean I can't criticize them if that is warranted too. I also have a lot of reservations about the Zambrano firing/Herdman hiring and how it was done but it is probably now time to give Herdman the benefit of the doubt and give him a chance to prove the critics wrong. CSA really put themselves out on limb with this and if it goes south I will be at the front of the line with you wearing a Sack the CSA shirt but I think we need to give them a chance first.

I would also like to mention that Jamie pretty much works full time on Voyageurs stuff with no pay and in fact he covers any costs not covered by donations and small profits made from merch sales from his own pocket. It is a life project for him to improve soccer and supporter culture in Canada. I think it is a worthy project and I hope most of us here are willing to do our best to help him achieve these goals.

[Vic]

"Players, executives ect... they read the forum and the general opinion of us among people that run the game in this country is extremely low. "

There are two sides to it. Unfortunately one is that if everyone buy's pom poms then we're part of the problem, not helping it.  IMHO the communication here is a very important check and balance in the system.

Thoreau's civil disobedience had something that has always stuck with me for decades: "Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death."

Wonder how the Americans deal with this?

In the bigger picture I think this discussion is normal and useful for an organization and at least to me a sign of a serious need for governance where decisions are made by an executive group and with full transparency and accountability (i.e the things we harp about in others).

[dyslexic nam]

I try to be reasonably constructive on here, though I will admit to voicing some frustration with the Herdman situation.

The issue I see is that voluntary compliance with general expectations of positivity aren't really compatible with a largely unmoderated Internet forum - especially where (I think it is fair to say) the national association has done things that warrant criticism, in a way that also warrants criticism.  At some point, I think that needs to be reconciled.  My time here has made me confident that critical views will not be withheld in a sustained way.  The fact that there even are "Sack the CSA" shirts from the past show that this isn't a totally new phenomenon and that strong feelings have been a theme here before.

There are still issues I am not clear on.  If it isn't the CSA that is displeased, the references to how much they do for V's and the hint that they may not continue to do so going forward seem incompatible.  Regardless, if I am understanding the significance of the tone issue, I think some thought needs to be given about whether or not the forum should continue in its present form or if some kind of structural change is needed.  IMO, it will be extremely hard for it to be both be a place for unmodded discussion of real Canadian soccer issues, and a vehicle to get people positive and excited about footy in this country.

[Admin]

There are a few separate issues.   What started this all, had nothing to do with the CSA. People went off half cocked ripping them a new asshole for something they had nothing to do with.    I was trying roll some of that back by pointing out that we have a relationship with these people, and they do a lot for us and want to find ways to do more.  They want us to succeed.   Regardless of how angry people are at the Herdman thing,  or something that happened 20 years ago,  this matters. 

 

 

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

I get it.  I guess my real point is that I am sceptical that pleas for civility will do the trick in terms of righting the ship.  While some people have suggested that the tone here has gotten worse lately, I have been a member of this site long enough to know that the critical trend isn't new.  I am just not sure a mostly unmodded, publicly accessible forum will be the thing that will mend fences and draw in casual fans.  I just don't think it's in the DNA.

[Admin]

We are not a check & balance for anything. No one on any board on any organization is looking over their shoulder for anything said here.   No one. 

This doesn't mean good things can't come of all this.  The Voyageurs Cup is a tremendous example of something good.

We definitely do not lure casual fans, we lose them.   Look at the CanPL topics.  This should be fun, speculating about a new league that is coming. Instead people get eviscerated for the most casual of posts and endlessly so.  They just don't come back or read that stuff and never bother to sign up.   The entire cast of CanPL supporters groups, with which I am in regular contact with,  are completely done with this forum.  We have lost them.   A new league, new supporters groups across the country, and they are totally done with us.  

 

 

 

 

[gator]

Just before the OZ firing I had been defending the CSA along with Griz in a debate with another poster, I know progress had been made with helping out the V's as Jamie has stated, that's all great and long overdue, then a couple of days later the bomb dropped! I am not naive enough to think the CSA has to consult us when they make a coaching change (in this case it might have been a good idea) but transparency is not too much to ask, this whole hiring process stinks and as has been debated in depth is so wrong for many reasons, that's before we even get in to who was hired and who was replaced! 

If the CSA wants to continue growing support not just with V's but with casual fans they need to act the part and this whole thing comes accross very poorly! Winning will grow the game more than flags, cameras, banners, preferred seating or any of those things, not that they aren't important! I as well as many others on here are of the opinion the CSA has made a MAJOR balls up here for the hiring itself and how it was done! If the new coach does not succeed and is in fact a stupid risk that fails, that will kill any momentum the program had going for it as well as any good will we were starting to feel!  

[Admin]

23 minutes ago, gator said:

Just before the OZ firing I had been defending the CSA along with Griz in a debate with another poster, I know progress had been made with helping out the V's as Jamie has stated, that's all great and long overdue, then a couple of days later the bomb dropped! I am not naive enough to think the CSA has to consult us when they make a coaching change (in this case it might have been a good idea) but transparency is not too much to ask, this whole hiring process stinks and as has been debated in depth is so wrong for many reasons, that's before we even get in to who was hired and who was replaced! 

If the CSA wants to continue growing support not just with V's but with casual fans they need to act the part and this whole thing comes accross very poorly! Winning will grow the game more than flags, cameras, banners, preferred seating or any of those things, not that they aren't important! I as well as many others on here are of the opinion the CSA has made a MAJOR balls up here for the hiring itself and how it was done! If the new coach does not succeed and is in fact a stupid risk that fails, that will kill any momentum the program had going for it as well as any good will we were starting to feel!  

There is absolutely nothing involved in the building and maintaining of relationships that precludes being critical.   No one is asking you bring out the pom poms as stated earlier. 

Again though we are conflating the Herdman hiring debacle with what kicked this off. 

 

[Gordon]

Unfortunately Socceronly, part of the message back is that these are the times. 95% of - and I am being generous - of the opinions expressed on this board are un-, ill-, or mis- informed. By chance, they are sometimes right. The ‘debate’ between opinion and knowledge is as old of time. I can point you to Socrates and Plato’s musings on this very thing. The internet has now created a forum where stupid can be published and consumed, potentially by billions. Any open board on any topic suffers this fate. It is the reality that any potential partner is going to have to understand and accept. Clowns gonna clown.

[matty]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

OK, I get it, you are simply asking for some diplomacy. All I can say is good luck with that!

As for why people leave and don't come back, that to me is as plain as the nose on your face. And the reason is not general discussion or radical viewpoints or crazy rants, it is personal insults. How many times have I seen a new poster come on here and post something silly, only to be immediately insulted by some jackass.

I am against censorship but I have no qualms about deleting posts that contain personal insults towards another poster.

So you don't think certain (non-soccer related) viewpoints expressed here make people uncomfortable about associating with these forums and that it's just insults that drive people away?

[matty]

4 hours ago, admin said:

We are not a check & balance for anything. No one on any board on any organization is looking over their shoulder for anything said here.   No one. 

This doesn't mean good things can't come of all this.  The Voyageurs Cup is a tremendous example of something good.

We definitely do not lure casual fans, we lose them.   Look at the CanPL topics.  This should be fun, speculating about a new league that is coming. Instead people get eviscerated for the most casual of posts and endlessly so.  They just don't come back or read that stuff and never bother to sign up.   The entire cast of CanPL supporters groups, with which I am in regular contact with,  are completely done with this forum.  We have lost them.   A new league, new supporters groups across the country, and they are totally done with us.  

 

 

 

 

There are fun and dignified CPL threads the issue is people view the shitty general one as THE THREAD when it's really just a circle jerk of people who are bored. This could be contained possible with a set of rules for threads or name changes but instead isn't as news articles end up being posted there and there alone with the clean thread ignored completely.

The issues go beyond the CPL thread.

It might be time for a proper set of rules and the use of suspending and banning members if there is concern about the future of this site.

I'd personally be concerned about the seeming lack of involvement of women seem to have on these forums?

[Joe MacCarthy]

12 minutes ago, matty said:

I'd personally be concerned about the seeming lack of involvement of women seem to have on these forums?

Mic drop

[matty]

3 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Women are under represented on this forum because they are under represented in the population of football supporters!!

The most popular soccer player from Canada is a woman and the Women's national team is a bigger live draw than the men's team. While your argument works for most of the world it doesn't work for Canada. There should be more women active here than there seems to be.

[Admin]

Please, please just stop.