CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

[mpg_29]

41 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Why would we want to implement it? North American sport doesn't work this way. 

You can't implement it in MLS cause people pay 100 million dollars for a franchise. This is how North American sport/business works. You buy into the league at the start and hope the franchise value grows. In North America there is a top league and lower leagues. MLS has established itself as the top North American league if CPL can find  solid niche  (similar to the CFL) with a 8 maybe 10 even dream scenario 12 team quality club league I think that would be best case over the moon scenario. Talking about 30 clubs - pro/rel is wayyyyyyy out there stuff -- similar to the NASL challenging MLS. Both about the same odds

 

Alright case closed then. Shut down the thread.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

19 hours ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

Being a big city does not immediately mean your team will do better financially and attendance wise. You only need to look at CFL to see that.   

When I say big city I mean successful club. 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

13 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

When I say big city I mean successful club. 

I agree then. If a league has salary caps and such the small teams will hold the big ones from real success.  

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

I agree then. If a league has salary caps and such the small teams will hold the big ones from real success.  

Unless the league has a system that allows bigger teams advantages if they are willing to pay for them (like DPs in MLS or luxury tax territory in the NBA).

[mpg_29]

I really don't want to see the MLS designated player rules in CPL...

[ReedOnTheGrand]

21 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Unless the league has a system that allows bigger teams advantages if they are willing to pay for them (like DPs in MLS or luxury tax territory in the NBA).

What's the point of a salary cap once you do that? So you can have uneven teams where some starting players are making 65k/year while others are "designated" and make 800k/year for slightly more contribution. 

[Bison44]

If you are having a cap (and you probably are), just make it count towards imports.  All CDN players dont count towards the cap.  If you are spending money on CDN, fill your boots boy!!  Bringing in shitty american journeymen, rostering filling central americans or SA mercenaries is what we need to keep a cap on.  This helps with any quota on CDN players, gives incentives to working with local amateur clubs and to scour the bushes for our boys toiling in low European leagues, US/Can colleges or USL.  You can still have foreign talent, but only this much and no further!!  

SORRY, this isnt about PRO/REL but it seems like what you are talking about lately.  

[Ansem]

19 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

MLS has established itself as the top North American league

You mean Liga MX that happens to have pro/rel with Ascendo MX, right?

[ReedOnTheGrand]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You mean Liga MX that happens to have pro/rel with Ascendo MX, right?

1 down a year based on 3 years performance. Sounds good to me. 

[Xavier]

Hasn't the league said they'd like to ideally introduce Pro/Rel once the league gets stabilized? I think that is the best way to do it. 

 

I'd love to see a PRO/REL system involved, as I believe that is how leagues should work. But the complexity of setting such a league is quite evident. 

[Ansem]

One of the major reasons MLS cant/won't do it is because they didn't plan for it at all.

CPL saying that they'd look/work towards pro/Rel once it hit 16 teams before the league even starts facilitates it's implementation. 

[Alex D]

I wonder how much of an expansion fee Manchester United had to pay to become worth $3.7 billion

[Ansem]

Pro/rel playoffs are huge draws in Europe. 

Promotion playoffs usually happens when Division 1 season is over.

Then everyone gets curious to see who gets promoted, myself included. All eyes, TV, attendance redirected at D2 is a nice way to reward those clubs who worked hard at excelling for a chance to promote. 

Pro/Rel to me, encourage excellence. D2 clubs compete for a chance to not only promoted to D1 but for a spot to get a bigger share of the financial pie...but to get there, you must invest in your club first to put it in a position to get to that spotlight of promotion playoffs and promotion. Make it rewarding to get in that spot... (start at the same round as CPL and MLS clubs at the V Cup)

Of course, There as ways to protect initial D1 owners from relagating too soon:

•Playoff between bottom CPL and D2 Champion. No automatic pro/rel

•D1 allowed more imports than D2 who would be strapped with a heavy domestic quota.

•D1 teams having at the very least a decade head starts on D2.

If after all of that a D2 win a pro/rel playoff against a D1 team, that team deserves to be relegated.

Pro/rel encouraged D2 teams to aspire for excellence while D1 teams aspire to tank for a 1st overall draft pick like other North America leagues does.

[Alex D]

You could have it so every team has to play a playoff to be promoted. 3rd worst team from CPL plays 3rd best team from D2, so on etc. Make it a triple header made for tv event. Hell, stretch it out over two legs and really milk it. It would be a terrific spectacle. 

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Pro/Rel to me, encourage excellence.

Pro/Rel to me, discourages spending. Not sure how we are supposed to expect CPL owners to build $50 million dollar stadiums, million dollar training facilities, and fully fund academies when they are constantly at risk of losing 75% of their team's income on on-field performance.

For a country like Canada that is completely lacking in soccer infrastructure: The stability of an MLS-type league > the potential of Pro/Rel....at least for the next 20 or so years. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by harrycoyster

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Odds on the only reason they have kept the option open when it is brought up publicly was to get crazy pro/rel advocates that think everything has to be exactly like it is over in Europe for soccer to be authentic in some way to stop pestering them about it.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Pro/Rel to me, discourages spending. Not sure how we are supposed to expect CPL owners to build $50 million dollar stadiums, million dollar training facilities, and fully fund academies when they are constantly at risk of losing 75% of their team's income on on-field performance.

For a country like Canada that is completely lacking in soccer infrastructure: The stability of an MLS-type league > the potential of Pro/Rel....at least for the next 20 or so years. 

There are ways to make relegation an anomaly, not the norm.

By the way, can we stop worrying about said owners? So far the specter of relegation hasn't deterred interest in the league so far.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Odds on the only reason they have kept the option open when it is brought up publicly was to get crazy pro/rel advocates that think everything has to be exactly like it is over in Europe for soccer to be authentic in some way to stop pestering them about it.

Oh...

You psychic now?

[harrycoyster]

17 minutes ago, Ansem said:

By the way, can we stop worrying about said owners? So far the specter of relegation hasn't deterred interest in the league so far.

Relegation won't stop owners from wanting to own a team, relegation will stop owners from making long-term investments in the team (see youth development in the K-League, for example). 

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Relegation won't stop owners from wanting to own a team, relegation will stop owners from making long-term investments in the team (see youth development in the K-League, for example). 

That's theory, not a fact

[grasshopper1917]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

There are ways to make relegation an anomaly, not the norm.

By the way, can we stop worrying about said owners? So far the specter of relegation hasn't deterred interest in the league so far.

Why do you say this? I have been following this since 2016 and they have so far 2 confirmed ownership groups (Hamilton/Winnipeg) and 2 seriously moving forward (Saskatchewan/Halifax). Its not like big investors are lining up demanding franchises. Without investors / owners there will be no league. 

One of the selling points presented in Halifax was that we would be division one league with us competing with cities like Ottawa, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hamilton ect.....

I think this could have an appeal for an investor but if you throw in 'well if you have a bad season your demoted to a inferior league and will be playing teams like **insert small town with a high school soccer field**' to me that could very much deter investment. 

Imagine MLS charging 100 million for a franchise then saying 'by the way if you finish last your kicked out the league but can joint the USL and play reserve teams in high school stadiums'.

I get that European sports have Pro/Rel - they have a long standing tradition of this and is normal over there.I also agree that from a fans perspective there is a benefit to this to make things interesting. However In Canada/USA there is no tradition of this. I think its crazy to even be talking about this - its going to be a massive challenge to get 6-8 fully professional franchises working and operating on a profitable basis. Maybe 40-50 years from now would pro-rel be an option? Who knows? I dont see amy real chance of it if CPL really wants to be a top division first class soccer league.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

That's theory, not a fact

It's a damn good theory. The Philadelphia Union are in the top five of MLS academy spending at around $3 million a year and spent around $25 million on a state or the art youth facility. Their first team is shit. Do you think they'd still be spending that money over buying a $3 million a year player like Alessandrini if they could get relegated? Hell no.

I've yet to hear a decent argument as to how pro/rel actively helps an undeveloped soccer country. Development mandates investment and investment mandates security. I'm not interested in pro/rel until we hit MLS/Liga MX levels of stability. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

On July 29, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Bison44 said:

If you are having a cap (and you probably are), just make it count towards imports.  All CDN players dont count towards the cap.  If you are spending money on CDN, fill your boots boy!!  Bringing in shitty american journeymen, rostering filling central americans or SA mercenaries is what we need to keep a cap on.  This helps with any quota on CDN players, gives incentives to working with local amateur clubs and to scour the bushes for our boys toiling in low European leagues, US/Can colleges or USL.  You can still have foreign talent, but only this much and no further!!  

SORRY, this isnt about PRO/REL but it seems like what you are talking about lately.  

This I could get behind. The clubs could still get high profile Imports, but they would have to get less of them. It would make them choose. Either buy quality imports then invest in the Canadians to fill all the other spots. Or they could buy more imports but have less quality which would give the Canadians a chance to uproot them and get a starting spot. How come I haven't heard this Idea before?

It gives the owners financial flexibility, limits imports, makes the league more even (like a salary cap), and forces them to develop Canadian players. All with one restriction... You are a genius.

[baulderdash77]

34 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I've yet to hear a decent argument as to how pro/rel actively helps an undeveloped soccer country. Development mandates investment and investment mandates security. I'm not interested in pro/rel until we hit MLS/Liga MX levels of stability. 

It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist here.  

Bottom line is that a full table is 20-24 teams and our D1 will never ever have 20-24 teams.  It's not like there's another 10+ D2 teams busting down the door to make the CanPL.  There's nowhere to relegate to and nowhere to promote from. We're going to struggle getting 12+ viable D1 teams willing to pay 1.5+ million salaries.

Any discussionod CanPL is just placating the eurusnob purists out there.  That's it.  It's a silly discussion honestly.

[m-g-williams]

Just my two cents' worth . . .

I know I harped on this a bit regarding St John's, but one of the reasons I'm hesitant about pro/rel in Canada is the travel costs. Barring a national airline sponsor (fingers crossed, WestJet!), it's going to be expensive enough for the larger clubs to travel from coast to coast. I think teams like Halifax, Winnipeg, SK (TBD) and Edmonton (eventually) could absorb the costs without too much difficulty. But if we're talking pro/rel after 16 teams, then we're getting into much smaller urban centres, which will likely mean a smaller bases for tickets sales/merchandise sales, as well as corporate sponsors/owners with shallower pockets. This works well in Europe as 1) it's been built into the system since day one, and 2) you're typically dealing with much, much shorter travel distances and lower travel costs. TGV and budget airlines makes this much more feasible for lower-division European teams that move up through the ranks. Unfortunately, we just don't have that kind of set-up in Canada. I know that Russia, Brazil and several other geographically-large, federal states use pro/rel, but I have a gut feeling that the history of soccer in these places works in its favour.

I'd love to see it work here, but my gut feeling is that we'd be setting up smaller clubs for failure.