2017 Toronto FC season (aka the 2017 MLS Cup clinching thread)

[BearcatSA]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 3:27 PM, Gian-Luca said:

 

I think the predictions of Osorio's demise as a starter may be premature - again it's pre-season but Vazquez looked clever on the ball but a little slow.

Sort of like an Higuaín even at his best for Columbus.  If he is in that style and can deliver the same kind of creativity, that would be a big plus.

[Gian-Luca]

I see that Raheem Edwards is now officially signed to the first team:

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/03/02/toronto-fc-sign-raheem-edwards

This brings the number of Canucks on the senior roster back up to the level it was for most of 2016 (subtract Johnson & Roberts, add Camargo & Edwards and the rest is the same - not going to count Mannella as he never played a minute withe the senior team last year).

[Dub Narcotic]

Well deserved. One of the best Canadian players in USL last year.

[Gian-Luca]

Last year we (or at least I) was confused about the status of Babouli as a homegrown player since he was left off the homegrown all-star game yet I recall that he was regularly referred to as being a homegrown player during TFC telecasts last year (some of which I have recently been re-watching ahead of the new season). This snippet from a recent MLS website article seems to provide some clarification that he was, as some correctly suggested last year, not signed to a homegrown contract.

"

Toronto FC

2017 Homegrowns (4): DF Ashtone Morgan (2011), MF Sergio Camargo (2017), MF Jay Chapman (2015), FW Jordan Hamilton (2014)

Note: Molham Babouli played in the Toronto FC academy, but was not signed to a Homegrown Player contract after featuring for Toronto FC II reserve team

What to expect: Toronto FC appear to be in good stead with their Homegrown project, even if it seems like all of them – there are six on the first-team roster – are just outside the first team picture. Jay Chapman, Marky Delgado (a Chivas USA academy product), Jordan Hamilton and Ashtone Morgan have all been in the system a while and should get decent looks at playing time in 2017. Delgado and Chapman in particular seem like good bets to get into the rotation in the central midfield, the former as a box-to-box guy and the latter as more of a sitting option. The most recent addition, rookie Sergio Camargo, is maybe a bit further away but should provide good value as a tricky, skilled midfielder who can exploit space in the final third.

Chart-topper: Chapman remains one of the more underrated Homegrown dots on the map. He’s so versatile that he can be pulled in too many directions at times, but he could start for the majority of teams in MLS.

For the future: TFC don’t have any particularly young Homegrowns, but it could take Camargo some time to get a level of comfort in the system after signing in the offseason. He may be 22, but the transition from college to pro isn’t always the easiest."

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/02/28/parchman-what-expect-mls-homegrown-class-2017

(The article is from Tuesday, so that's why Edwards is not on the list as yet). Now I'm curious as to why they didn't do so - other than another exception in Orlando, Babouli is the only player in the whole article that is listed as being a product of a team's academy but not signed to such a deal.

[BearcatSA]

7 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Chapman remains one of the more underrated Homegrown dots on the map. He’s so versatile that he can be pulled in too many directions at times, but he could start for the majority of teams in MLS.

He showed notable improvement over his rookie season but I'm not sure I would agree with the author's opinion here...yet.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Matt Doyle in his handicapping article puts TFC first. I agree.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/02/28/armchair-analyst-frontrunners-pack-all-22-mls-teams-tier

I don't think Seattle deserves to be second though, I see them more as mid-pack. I still see Dallas taking the West and, playing to their potential, TFC taking the East.

[Gian-Luca]

14 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

He showed notable improvement over his rookie season but I'm not sure I would agree with the author's opinion here...yet.

Yeah I also thought this was a bit of an overstatement for now, though it is interesting to see such high praise for a Canadian player from one of the non-Canuck authors on the MLS website

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

Yeah I also thought this was a bit of an overstatement for now, though it is interesting to see such high praise for a Canadian player from one of the non-Canuck authors on the MLS website

Matt Doyle is very high on Chapman as well. Of course, management must not be because he's not int he 18 to start the season.

[Obinna]

TFC looked sloppy and poor against RSL in a 0-0 stalemate. It was the season opener, but too many players showed rust. Giovinco was below his usual high standard. Bradley had 3 turnovers in 15 minutes, where he played the ball directly to an RSL player. Osorio was muscled off the ball a couple of times. Armando Cooper was guilty of a few give aways and made some poor decisions going forward. Morrow and Beita were good, as was Altidore but he was starved for service and when he got it Chirs Schuler shut him down. Valdez showed flashes of quality but his lack of work rate was worrying. 

[shermanator]

The worst part of the game was seeing Morrow's "cornrow man-bun". Truly a hideous hairstyle.

[BearcatSA]

8 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Yeah I also thought this was a bit of an overstatement for now, though it is interesting to see such high praise for a Canadian player from one of the non-Canuck authors on the MLS website

Has the author watched him quite a bit or is he relying on some information from others to augment his assessment?  Chapman could become a top quality player down the road and I really hope he does, but over the many years I've become fairly skeptical of hyping up young guys.

[BearcatSA]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

Valdez showed flashes of quality but his lack of work rate was worrying. 

Considering the venue, the comments from the club that Vazquez was still a ways away from full fitness, and the player's own particular playing style, I wouldn't be concerned about work rate at this point.  He's in there for craft, not graft.  He'll take some time to get meshed with the Giovinco and Altidore but eventually he will and I think you'll also see Bradley dish it off more to him in the attacking build up play as opposed to his trying to do more of the linking play himself directly to the forwards, as I saw a number of times in matches against bunkered opponents last season.  

It was indeed a sloppy match.  For RSL, Schuler had a much better second half but was a train wreck early in the game in attempting to clear the ball, giving away some big chances.

[Dub Narcotic]

I thought the game wasn't that bad. Toronto controlled the ball well and had some nice passages of play in a tough away venue. It was nice to see a Canadian team actually hold onto the ball after the Vancouver game mid-week.

[Gian-Luca]

10 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Considering the venue, the comments from the club that Vazquez was still a ways away from full fitness, and the player's own particular playing style, I wouldn't be concerned about work rate at this point.  He's in there for craft, not graft.  He'll take some time to get meshed with the Giovinco and Altidore but eventually he will and I think you'll also see Bradley dish it off more to him in the attacking build up play as opposed to his trying to do more of the linking play himself directly to the forwards, as I saw a number of times in matches against bunkered opponents last season. 

I found it a bit surprising that when Delgado was brought on, they didn't invert the midfield triangle and have Bradley and Delgado at the bottom and Vazquez at the top of it so that he could equally distribute between Giovinco and Altidore. But instead it seemed that he was definitely left sided at the top with Delgado at the top of the other side of the diamond. If they don't want to invert the triangle then fine but I (and I suspect most people) would rather have used Chapman at an attacking midfielder than Delgado - Chapman wasn't dressed of course, but perhaps he should have been. I assumed Delgado was supposed to be  Beitashour's cover on the right (as Edwards was on the left for Morrow), although maybe Endoh is supposed to fill that role. In which case, what do you need Delgado for when you have also dressed Cheyrou as d-mid cover?  I'm assuming one of those two guys (most likely Endoh since Delgado can play elsewhere) will not make the bench next week to make room for Mavinga being added to the 18-man game day roster.

[jpg75]

A draw on the road against an opponent with such a strong home record year-in, year-out is a good result.

[Ruffian]

On 04/03/2017 at 10:39 PM, BearcatSA said:

Has the author watched him quite a bit or is he relying on some information from others to augment his assessment?  Chapman could become a top quality player down the road and I really hope he does, but over the many years I've become fairly skeptical of hyping up young guys.

I remember Matt Doyle starting to hype Chapman after the All-Star rookie game. He was one of the most impressive players in that game.

[shermanator]

Matt Doyle has been hyping Chapman up for a while now. IIRC, Doyle posted on Reddit that he thought Chapman would be a big difference maker on the Canadian national team during an AMA. I thought Chapman was pretty good in his minutes in 2016 but that's a pretty big stretch. Doyle is is the same guy who had Shamit Shome going #4 in the draft before the combine, then drastically changing his tune after watching him at the MLS combine, to the point where he wasn't sure if Shome would be drafted.

[Keegan]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Matt Doyle has been hyping Chapman up for a while now. IIRC, Doyle posted on Reddit that he thought Chapman would be a big difference maker on the Canadian national team during an AMA. I thought Chapman was pretty good in his minutes in 2016 but that's a pretty big stretch. Doyle is is the same guy who had Shamit Shome going #4 in the draft before the combine, then drastically changing his tune after watching him at the MLS combine, to the point where he wasn't sure if Shome would be drafted.

Doyle is waiting for Canada to pop so he can say "I told you so!" to all the other Americans.  He picked us to win the 2015 Gold Cup with Larin as top scorer.

[Gian-Luca]

I've just seen this link on TFC's roster on the mls website, which, rather than clearing things up, only adds to confusing world of MLS roster regulations:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/rosters/2017/toronto-fc

If you scroll down to the "roster composition" section, you'll see that there is a Senior Roster (spots 1 to 20), a Supplemental Roster (spots 21 to 24) and then Reserve Roster (spots 25 through 30). What the hell is the difference between the three categories(especially the supplemental vs. reserve), or what tangible effect these different designations have in reality is not really clear to me. Anyone want to have a guess?

TFC current have three spots open on their "Senior Roster", while there is one supplemental spot open and one reserve spot open. There are homegrown players listed in all three categories (though despite the fact that I thought I saw Edwards mentioned as a Homegrown player signing, there isn't an HG next to his name), the only GA player (Bono) is listed as being supplemental. All of the players in the Supplemental/Reserve Roster spots spent time in TFC II or in their academy, with the exception of Endoh who is surprisingly listed as a reserve player, the only international player not to be deemed worth of the senior roster. Camargo is listed as a supplemental player while Chapman (along with Hamilton, Babouli and Edwards) are also on the reserve roster. Ashtone Morgan is surprisingly listed as a supplemental player and is by far the most veteran player amongst the players not on the senior roster (how many years does he have to play before he's considered senior?)

Edit: scrolled further down and seen that Senior Roster counts towards a club's salary budget against the cap while the other two categories don't - but I still don't see the difference between supplemental & reserve and am still curious as to the decision making as to who qualifies for what

 

[AvroArrow]

7 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I've just seen this link on TFC's roster on the mls website, which, rather than clearing things up, only adds to confusing world of MLS roster regulations:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/rosters/2017/toronto-fc

If you scroll down to the "roster composition" section, you'll see that there is a Senior Roster (spots 1 to 20), a Supplemental Roster (spots 21 to 24) and then Reserve Roster (spots 25 through 30). What the hell is the difference between the three categories(especially the supplemental vs. reserve), or what tangible effect these different designations have in reality is not really clear to me. Anyone want to have a guess?

TFC current have three spots open on their "Senior Roster", while there is one supplemental spot open and one reserve spot open. There are homegrown players listed in all three categories (though despite the fact that I thought I saw Edwards mentioned as a Homegrown player signing, there isn't an HG next to his name), the only GA player (Bono) is listed as being supplemental. All of the players in the Supplemental/Reserve Roster spots spent time in TFC II or in their academy, with the exception of Endoh who is surprisingly listed as a reserve player, the only international player not to be deemed worth of the senior roster. Camargo is listed as a supplemental player while Chapman (along with Hamilton, Babouli and Edwards) are also on the reserve roster. Ashtone Morgan is surprisingly listed as a supplemental player and is by far the most veteran player amongst the players not on the senior roster (how many years does he have to play before he's considered senior?)

Edit: scrolled further down and seen that Senior Roster counts towards a club's salary budget against the cap while the other two categories don't - but I still don't see the difference between supplemental & reserve and am still curious as to the decision making as to who qualifies for what

 

Then Don Garber said, "Well you see, Gian-Luca, the roster rules for MLS may seem overly complex and obtuse, but in reality, they are very easy to understand."  Gian-Luca leaned in intently, hoping that the MLS commissioner would explain the MLS's roster rules in basic English, something everyone in Toronto had been wishing for for well over a decade.  However, he also noted that Garber was slowly inching towards the exit.  And then, just like that, Garber ran out the door and vanished into the night.  And no one was the wiser.

[Gian-Luca]

Some further explanation on all this newly released roster rules and regulations info:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/03/09/stejskal-tutorial-new-mls-roster-info-ocscs-incentive-keep-larin

Plus that link also has a bit on a possible Larin move to Europe (off-topic for the thread, but not the forum)

[DannyFromToronto23]

When Beitashour can't play never put endoh there again vanney should of made this lineup for the game vs philly

[One American]

Am I the only one that thinks Chapman should be demanding a trade to Minnesota? 

[jpg75]

OK, can we block the lineup builder graphics? Seriously, fuckin' garbage...

[Gian-Luca]

Interesting analysis from Vanney on the Union tying goal:

" I think the first thing is Armando (Cooper) slips the ball through the guy’s legs and, foul or no foul, because he went to ground he’s eliminated from the whole situation, so that’s one midfielder down. We’ve got guys moving forward a little bit in the action because we were working in transition, but when we concede the ball that easily, they play one forward past and they’re in between our lines. We still had numbers between our goal and the ball to deal with it, so the second mistake is we had two center backs start to step forward at the same time. Drew started to step out to oppose the ball and Nick should stay inside to deal with the forward, but Nick starts to step as well to try and oppose the ball, and next thing you know, Sapong has a clear little path in behind. The third thing is I’d like to see Clint be a little bit more attached to the back line, so as that ball is rolled in behind us, he can come hard and snuff it out. Again, for me goals typically aren’t just one mistake. It’s usually some sort of series of mistakes and we made three on that one."

Isn't at least part of the problem that two centrebacks stepped forward while the third centreback did not and as a result kept play onside? Or am I reading too much in the way of intent to protect family members with this comment. I know that Kristian Jack also put a huge part of the blame on Irwin for the tying goal but I feel the criticism there, as with Vanney's above, is harsh. When a team allows a striker to be sent in all alone on the keeper like that it's tough for me to put the finger on the keeper as the main or even equal culprit. I do agree about multiple mistakes being made on the play but I'd put the lion's share with the nutmeg give-a-away by Cooper and the back-line as a whole (rather than everyone but Vanney's nephew) first before I pointed the finger at Clint on this one. Just my two cents.