amanfromvancouver Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 1 hour ago, king1010 said: the voyageurs supporters section is for the hardcore supporters who sit, cheer all game, and wear Canada red. Its pretty simple. If you "can't afford" to own red clothing or can't stand for 90 minutes there's thousands of other seats in the stadium priced at $25 for you to sit in and support Canada from. Nobody is forcing you to sit in the hardcore supporters section. It's just not a section for people who need to sit, they wont be able to see the game. Then you are discriminating in a particular section of the stadium. "Do it our way or get lost". That works in some places. BC Place, however, is a public facility and I really find it off putting that you are telling people how they should support the MNT and treating them like they are not worthy of your attention if they are different. This is , last time I checked, a society that values differences and inclusiveness. This is all too religious revival stuff for my tastes. I am shocked the CSA condones this and can not fathom BC Place security is willing to enforce this dogma on all the good meaning people who love their country. And by the way, a lot of the Mexican supporters at the game will be your fellow Canadians (both residents, and citizens), and should not be treated with some bigoted idea that they are all violent and should be shunned upon and removed if they come near you. Should I call one of the Voyageurs who happen to be from England a nasty hooligan and ban them from a pub when they want to watch a qualifier in their England kit? I would bet there are plenty of you that also support a country of origin or descent that is not Canada. Should you also be stereotyped and treated like a second class citizen? This whole fear of opposing support is so rooted in old and bigoted tribal nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 18 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: This whole fear of opposing support is so rooted in old and bigoted tribal nonsense. I'm surprised a person who has been supporting Canada in Vancouver World Cup qualifiers since the '80s has forgotten the times when Costa Rican or Guatemalan fans got among the Canadian supporters at Swangard Stadium and there was actual, not hypothetical, violence. In a perfect world of course all supporters could enjoy each others' company at all times, but our world is imperfect. Segregating supporters during the match and letting them, if they wish, come together before and after has proven to be the best solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 19 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: Then you are discriminating in a particular section of the stadium. "Do it our way or get lost". That works in some places. BC Place, however, is a public facility and I really find it off putting that you are telling people how they should support the MNT and treating them like they are not worthy of your attention if they are different. This is , last time I checked, a society that values differences and inclusiveness. This is all too religious revival stuff for my tastes. I am shocked the CSA condones this and can not fathom BC Place security is willing to enforce this dogma on all the good meaning people who love their country. And by the way, a lot of the Mexican supporters at the game will be your fellow Canadians (both residents, and citizens), and should not be treated with some bigoted idea that they are all violent and should be shunned upon and removed if they come near you. Should I call one of the Voyageurs who happen to be from England a nasty hooligan and ban them from a pub when they want to watch a qualifier in their England kit? I would bet there are plenty of you that also support a country of origin or descent that is not Canada. Should you also be stereotyped and treated like a second class citizen? This whole fear of opposing support is so rooted in old and bigoted tribal nonsense. I think you have numerous misunderstandings about supporters sections, The Voyageurs supporters section, what they are for, and the reasons that people are responding the way they are. But before I can really respond I have a couple questions (and then maybe more after you have a chance to respond). Were you at the recent CMNT game vs Honduras? If so, where did you sit? Do you go to Whitecaps games? If so, where do you sit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanfromvancouver Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 19 minutes ago, Benjamin Massey said: I'm surprised a person who has been supporting Canada in Vancouver World Cup qualifiers since the '80s has forgotten the times when Costa Rican or Guatemalan fans got among the Canadian supporters at Swangard Stadium and there was actual, not hypothetical, violence. In a perfect world of course all supporters could enjoy each others' company at all times, but our world is imperfect. Segregating supporters during the match and letting them, if they wish, come together before and after has proven to be the best solution. I remember such things; I was at every Swangard qualifier in the 80s to the 2000s. You are correct fan segregation is necessary to some degree; although I feel here in Canada in 2015 it is minimal. My best memories of qualifiers were in those Swangard days surrounded by the opposition fans and there was no segregation. I found that exciting. I do know fights happened and I even remember the famous Johnnie Monster (everyone knows who he is) being tossed by the RCMP at a qualifier back in the early 2000's. You are digressing from my original point which was the controls and discrimination on Canadian MNT supporters who do things differently. I understand I am speaking this opinion into a hostile environment and will not gain support. I have said how I feel and made my points whether you chose to miss them or not. It surprises me the most that the CSA would sanction discrimination against Canadian supporters...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1zzurri Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 17 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: Then you are discriminating in a particular section of the stadium. "Do it our way or get lost". That works in some places. BC Place, however, is a public facility and I really find it off putting that you are telling people how they should support the MNT and treating them like they are not worthy of your attention if they are different. This is , last time I checked, a society that values differences and inclusiveness. This is all too religious revival stuff for my tastes. I am shocked the CSA condones this and can not fathom BC Place security is willing to enforce this dogma on all the good meaning people who love their country. And by the way, a lot of the Mexican supporters at the game will be your fellow Canadians (both residents, and citizens), and should not be treated with some bigoted idea that they are all violent and should be shunned upon and removed if they come near you. Should I call one of the Voyageurs who happen to be from England a nasty hooligan and ban them from a pub when they want to watch a qualifier in their England kit? I would bet there are plenty of you that also support a country of origin or descent that is not Canada. Should you also be stereotyped and treated like a second class citizen? This whole fear of opposing support is so rooted in old and bigoted tribal nonsense. lol second class citizens? you must be a real party pooper. I hope you find a place in the stadium that fits your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESG Shawn Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 2 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: You are digressing from my original point which was the controls and discrimination on Canadian MNT supporters who do things differently. I understand I am speaking this opinion into a hostile environment and will not gain support. I have said how I feel and made my points whether you chose to miss them or not. It surprises me the most that the CSA would sanction discrimination against Canadian supporters...... There are approximately 54 sections in the lower bowl of BC Place. Approximately 48-50 of those 54 sections cater to Canadian fans who choose to support the team in a manner similar to the way you describe. Jamie and the rest of the volunteers set up 4-6 sections so like minded people such as the Voyageurs can express their support for the team. The environment and manner of support in these sections are clearly outlined for those who choose to join. I don't go into the regular sections and stand, wave flags and sing and chant. I'm sure the people sitting there wouldn't appreciate it, and neither would security. Of course I could go stand there with 10 of my friends and sing for 90 minutes, citing the same reasons as you, saying it's discriminatory as this is Canada and I should be able support how I want, where I want. Or, I could just do the reasonable thing and buy a ticket in a section where people will be doing the same thing as me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1zzurri Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 3 minutes ago, ESG Shawn said: There are approximately 54 sections in the lower bowl of BC Place. Approximately 48-50 of those 54 sections cater to Canadian fans who choose to support the team in a manner similar to the way you describe. Jamie and the rest of the volunteers set up 4-6 sections so like minded people such as the Voyageurs can express their support for the team. The environment and manner of support in these sections are clearly outlined for those who choose to join. I don't go into the regular sections and stand, wave flags and sing and chant. I'm sure the people sitting there wouldn't appreciate it, and neither would security. Of course I could go stand there with 10 of my friends and sing for 90 minutes, citing the same reasons as you, saying it's discriminatory as this is Canada and I should be able support how I want, where I want. Or, I could just do the reasonable thing and buy a ticket in a section where people will be doing the same thing as me... Please stop making sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanfromvancouver Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 20 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said: I think you have numerous misunderstandings about supporters sections, The Voyageurs supporters section, what they are for, and the reasons that people are responding the way they are. But before I can really respond I have a couple questions (and then maybe more after you have a chance to respond). Were you at the recent CMNT game vs Honduras? If so, where did you sit? Do you go to Whitecaps games? If so, where do you sit? Yes, I was at the game. I was actually in a section that had a significant number of Honduras supporters mixed in with us. Yes, I know they had a "section" over in another corner' however there were many in the 220-221 corner that we intermingled with. Great fun to be taunting one another in jest... there was no anger or heat or anything negative coming from it. Fear of supporter violence is well over played here in Vancouver. This isn't Tegucigalpa stadium. ANd yes, I go to Whitecaps games. I do not sit in the Curva or Southsiders sections. I know the Curva will bully people who are in their section and don't follow along, I am not aware of that happening in the southside though. Anyways, I won't make any grounds here. I made my points on social justice and fairness and that is really all I have to say about it. After seeing these actions laid out, I decided against joining your section and bought my tickets elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 49 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: Then you are discriminating in a particular section of the stadium. "Do it our way or get lost". That works in some places. BC Place, however, is a public facility and I really find it off putting that you are telling people how they should support the MNT and treating them like they are not worthy of your attention if they are different. This is , last time I checked, a society that values differences and inclusiveness. This is all too religious revival stuff for my tastes. I am shocked the CSA condones this and can not fathom BC Place security is willing to enforce this dogma on all the good meaning people who love their country. And by the way, a lot of the Mexican supporters at the game will be your fellow Canadians (both residents, and citizens), and should not be treated with some bigoted idea that they are all violent and should be shunned upon and removed if they come near you. Should I call one of the Voyageurs who happen to be from England a nasty hooligan and ban them from a pub when they want to watch a qualifier in their England kit? I would bet there are plenty of you that also support a country of origin or descent that is not Canada. Should you also be stereotyped and treated like a second class citizen? This whole fear of opposing support is so rooted in old and bigoted tribal nonsense. You are talking to someone who wants to help organize the away fan support to make the experience a good one for everyone in the stadium for the exact reason you are talking about, there are many fellow Canadians. Just don't have the resources to do that yet. I have people who have joined us and bought tickets from us for years now I have met in the stadium and at the pub who were opposition fans. From Ecuador, Columbia, Peru and many more. There are away fans at our pre game and post game parties at almost every singe game I have been to. People buy them beers and generally talk about soccer. You are simply mistaken in your characterization of this, who we are and what we do. You are trying really hard to make something from nothing. Is there any reason all parts of the stadium should be the same? I find it hard to believe you would take the same view on this if Canadians were to crash a Mexican supporters section and cause problems. BC Place security does actually enforce dress codes for want of a better term in certain sections. They do this at Whitecaps games. Away and home support rules are actually pretty common. If you keep using words like bigoted, discrimination ect, you better start backing them up with examples. It is unwarranted, and I take these kind of allegations seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanfromvancouver Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 1 minute ago, admin said: If you keep using words like bigoted, discrimination ect, you better start backing them up with examples. It is unwarranted, and I take these kinds allegations seriously. I have made my points and voiced my concerns. We won't see eye to eye and at the end, that is ok. I don't think we need to g on for pages and pages. I made my point, you made yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Hey adouchefromvancouver, no one is FORCING you to buy a ticket in our section and stand. If you want to sit then go buy a ticket in another section. This is what we call personal freedom. You are presented with 2 (or more) options, you have a choice. Now fuck off you pussy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 4 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: I have made my points and voiced my concerns. We won't see eye to eye and at the end, that is ok. I don't think we need to g on for pages and pages. I made my point, you made yours. No. You don't get to snipe us calling us bigoted and discriminatory and get away with it. It isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 5 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: Anyways, I won't make any grounds here. I made my points on social justice and fairness and that is really all I have to say about it. After seeing these actions laid out, I decided against joining your section and bought my tickets elsewhere. Come to the bar before the match in Vancouver and I'll buy you a pint and a dictionary so you can learn what the definitions of 'bigoted', 'discrimination, 'social justice' etc are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Sit down in the family section. LOL bigoted. The Voyageurs section is probably the most diverse in the world, per capita. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermanator Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 35 minutes ago, ESG Shawn said: There are approximately 54 sections in the lower bowl of BC Place. Approximately 48-50 of those 54 sections cater to Canadian fans who choose to support the team in a manner similar to the way you describe. Jamie and the rest of the volunteers set up 4-6 sections so like minded people such as the Voyageurs can express their support for the team. The environment and manner of support in these sections are clearly outlined for those who choose to join. I don't go into the regular sections and stand, wave flags and sing and chant. I'm sure the people sitting there wouldn't appreciate it, and neither would security. Of course I could go stand there with 10 of my friends and sing for 90 minutes, citing the same reasons as you, saying it's discriminatory as this is Canada and I should be able support how I want, where I want. Or, I could just do the reasonable thing and buy a ticket in a section where people will be doing the same thing as me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 31 minutes ago, jpg75 said: Hey adouchefromvancouver, no one is FORCING you to buy a ticket in our section and stand. If you want to sit then go buy a ticket in another section. This is what we call personal freedom. You are presented with 2 (or more) options, you have a choice. Now fuck off you pussy. I do see where he is coming from in many respects. The wording on the site, and we have never had that before is pretty harsh. If you haven't seen what some of us have seen repeatedly it could get confused with the away fans being Mexican and not fans of Mexico. I frankly have been expecting this reaction for some time, I figured it would come first in Toronto against Jamaica where any hint at our sections being for Canadians would be a direct correlation against the color of the fans of the other team. It didn't happen. This is about the "fans of.... " not "the people of.... " Just because the two overlap in most cases, doesn't make them the same. I have found people are pretty good at parsing these two things. Especially when you come from a supporters group like ours made of people who also have other teams because of their family background, recent moves to this country ect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 38 minutes ago, amanfromvancouver said: Yes, I was at the game. I was actually in a section that had a significant number of Honduras supporters mixed in with us. Yes, I know they had a "section" over in another corner' however there were many in the 220-221 corner that we intermingled with. Great fun to be taunting one another in jest... there was no anger or heat or anything negative coming from it. Fear of supporter violence is well over played here in Vancouver. This isn't Tegucigalpa stadium. ANd yes, I go to Whitecaps games. I do not sit in the Curva or Southsiders sections. I know the Curva will bully people who are in their section and don't follow along, I am not aware of that happening in the southside though. Anyways, I won't make any grounds here. I made my points on social justice and fairness and that is really all I have to say about it. After seeing these actions laid out, I decided against joining your section and bought my tickets elsewhere. Well it's unfortunate that you feel this way, because your opinion of what you think is going on in a Voyageurs supporters section is erroneous, and the grounds that need to be made are in actuality by you ... to increase your understanding of what's actually going on, not what you think is going on. First off, if people don't have the funds to afford a Canada jersey or some other kind of Canada identified gear, there is no gatekeeper at the top of the section that will turn you away, and in the vast majority of cases, no one will look askance. Close to where I was standing for the Vancouver-Honduras game there were two guys in plaid shirts, not red & white and no one said a word because in reality that's not the issue. However, if a Honduran supporter came into the section wearing a Honduras jersey or shirt then they would not be allowed, and same with the Honduran section and Canadian fans. Importantly here, The Voyageurs are a group whose purpose is to support the Canadian teams and the Voyageurs section is there for the same purpose. If that's a social justice issue then you would feel that soccer and soccer supporting has the same social justice issue throughout the world. Secondly, if you can't stand and sing for the whole 90 minutes, no one is going to kick you out. What is stated is more about what we aspire to than what in reality happens. Hell, I'm getting older and sometimes simply am too out of shape (or sometimes have had one too many beer) and can't jump up and down for the full 90. I've never had anyone criticize if I needed to stop and take a breath, and I've never heard anyone do it to anyone else either (although I admit it could happen). Where we run into issues is when people accidentally buy tickets in the section and think that the behaviour in the section is such that it will be quiet and they will have a completely unobstructed view for the entire match. But in the section where singing, standing, and flag waving are the norm, this is an unrealistic expectation, and it is much easier to solve those potential issues prior to game time, than it is when someone parks a drum right beside the unsuspecting person. So finally, it's a supporters section and that's the purpose of this group and that section. It is inclusive of anyone who wants to join in the fun. If that's not what you're interested in, then you're probably right that's it's maybe it's better to sit elsewhere in the stadium. But if you think that there are a bunch of bullying thought police roaming around making sure everyone's in line, you've got the wrong impression. In my experience it is simply a group of people (great people mind you), who love the sport, love the game, and have a great time together supporting the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Oh, that is my mistake. It says Canada gear. It should be no opposing colors. I'll change that in case that is what people think, it's not what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 3 minutes ago, admin said: I do see where he is coming from in many respects. The wording on the site, and we have never had that before is pretty harsh. If you haven't seen what some of us have seen repeatedly it could get confused with the away fans being Mexican and not fans of Mexico. I frankly have been expecting this reaction for some time, I figured it would come first in Toronto against Jamaica. Where any hint at our sections being for Canadians would be a direct correlation against the color of the fans of the other team. It didn't happen. This is about the "fans of.... " not "the people of.... " Just because the two overlap in most cases, doesn't make them the same. I have found people are pretty good at parsing these two things. Especially when you come from a supporters group like ours made of people who also have other teams family because of their background, recent moves to this country ect... You're being far too PC yourself Jamie. As an organization who has purchased 3000 tickets for re-sale we have a right to set guidelines that are reasonable and vet the individuals we sell those tickets to. We don't have to sell tickets to people we don't want to, that is our right. Professional sports organizations do it worldwide - heck even in NA - citing security concerns. If the venue or organization we purchase (or receive on consignment) the tickets from agrees to the re-sale guidelines then it is legally mot discrimination. If someone buys said tickets while misrepresenting who they are while the guidelines are clearly written and presented at point-of-sale then they are at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I don't think it's too PC. Logically it all make sense from a security position ect... But in the moment when it comes down to deciding who can be where what is your criteria? I like the fact that people don't think we are such assholes they wouldn't dare buy tickets in our section, that's actually a good thing. I like the fact that in this country it is, and should be, difficult to set up sections for different groups of people. Were it easy, however unlikely, it could get exploited. In the moment is is very difficult to differentiate "Fan of" vs "Person of" It's easy at a pro sports game, not so much at international games because of the correlation of the shirt to the person. If you put your pro game hat on, it's easier to picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 How long were we in the stadium taking pictures with Mexican fans after the game in Seattle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 1 minute ago, socceronly said: I don't think it's too PC. Logically it all make sense from a security position ect... But in the moment when it comes down to deciding who can be where what is your criteria? I like the fact that people don't think we are such assholes they wouldn't dare buy tickets in our section, that's actually a good thing. I like the fact that in this country it is, and should be, difficult to set up sections for different groups of people. Were it easy, however unlikely, it could get exploited. In the moment is is very difficult to communicate "Fan of" vs "Person of" It's easy at a pro sports game, not so much at international games. We're not excluding based on colour or race or any other of the taboo classifications, we are doing so based on preference of sports team. Whether it is an international match or not people have a right to pick and choose who they root for based on personal preference rather than on nationality, colour, race etc. Just because you are black and were born in Jamaica does not mean you are a Jamaica supporter. Just because you are a white Canadian does not exclude you from wearing a Jamaica jersey to a qualifier at BMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojoflow Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 1 hour ago, amanfromvancouver said: I remember such things; I was at every Swangard qualifier in the 80s to the 2000s. You are correct fan segregation is necessary to some degree; although I feel here in Canada in 2015 it is minimal. My best memories of qualifiers were in those Swangard days surrounded by the opposition fans and there was no segregation. I found that exciting. I do know fights happened and I even remember the famous Johnnie Monster (everyone knows who he is) being tossed by the RCMP at a qualifier back in the early 2000's. You are digressing from my original point which was the controls and discrimination on Canadian MNT supporters who do things differently. I understand I am speaking this opinion into a hostile environment and will not gain support. I have said how I feel and made my points whether you chose to miss them or not. It surprises me the most that the CSA would sanction discrimination against Canadian supporters...... wow I can't believe you are so offended by this. I dont think Socceronly was trying to say you have to wear this or that but some people come to the game and sit int he Supporters section wearing the other teams colour. Some people buy tickets knowing what happens in the section and then complain because we are loud and standing up to name a few complains. It's not that hard wear something that shows you belong in the section. Know that people will be standing if you want to sit you can't complain about not seeing the game. Know there is a family section maybe thats what you might want to look into. Everyone will be standing so if you want to sit and think it's not fare if you can't sit you will be the people ruining all those peoples time at the game. There are a few rules to make sure people know what they are getting into if they want to be in the supporters section and so there are no probelms. WE want people to join in the fun and wear something to help show who we are cheering for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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