Loss of the National Football Stadium

[Trillium]

Playoffs at BMO? When has that ever happened? When will it ever happen? Yes I know half the TFC posters think they are a superclub now with their new signings but I will believe that when I see it.

And I agree the playoffs go on too long but some club turning their soccer specific stadium into a multi-sport stadium for a money grab and having pitch problems isn't going to be the motivation to change that.

Heck Grizzly do you think they might be drinking the Winter brand of Kook-Aid, on both issues stadium and team results predicted to be cause the payroll tells them so ?

[nfitz]

Playoffs at BMO? When has that ever happened? When will it ever happen?

Do you not recall the MLS play off game at BMO Field on November 21, 2010?

The weather and pitch were fine. Far warmer than it is there in March.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Braley and Tannenbaum seen schmoozing at a Raptors game a few nights ago. A done deal? Possibly waiting until Olympics are over before announcing deal?

[Joe MacCarthy]

City, MLSE close on BMO Field expansion: Councillor

Don Peat, City Hall Bureau Chief Toronto Sun February 25, 2014

TORONTO - The City of Toronto is close to a deal with Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment to expand BMO Field.

Councillor Mark Grimes told the Toronto Sun Tuesday that a deal is “getting close” and he’s hoping it could lead to the field becoming the new home for the Toronto Argonauts.

“I’m confident that we can strike a deal between the city and MLSE,” said Grimes, the chairman of the Board of Governors of Exhibition Place. “It’s not there yet, we’re getting close in my mind.

“We should have something very shortly, in the next couple weeks we should know.”

Grimes was spotted meeting with city officials in Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly’s office on Tuesday.

He has called a special meeting of the Board of Governors on March 7 to discuss a possible deal.

“It is going to cost us money to expand, there is a portion that we would pay that we’d be guaranteed back,” he said.

The expansion would add around 10,000 seats to the more than 20,000-seat stadium, extend the length of the field and add a partial roof.

Grimes said he hopes it would provide a better home for the Toronto FC, a possible new home for the Argonauts and one day host an NHL Winter Classic game.

“It is going to be a pretty extensive renovation ... but it will be great,” Grimes said. “It would be great to bring the Argonauts back to Exhibition Place.”

Although the time frame would be tight, Grimes hopes the field could be updated in time for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

A MLSE spokesman declined to comment on Tuesday.

[killgod]

2015 Pan Am Games eh?

So when are they going to do all this work? During the Winter? Riiiiiiiiight.

[Joe MacCarthy]

It has been known to do construction work in the winter, in fact we are building two new stadiums right now in Hamilton and Ottawa.

[narduch]

The thinking is that the construction will actually start in the summer.

Seems like this is a done deal. The public consultations seem to be a way to placate anyone that might have complaints. It doesn't matter anymore.

I just hope they don't ruin the stadium for soccer. But I'm not optimistic on that front.

[madmonte]

True about the winter thing. They have been working on the new Medicine Hat Arena (new home of our Medicine Hat Tigers) as well.

[narduch]

There is supposed to be public consultations on BMO Field Expansion tonight. Will be interesting to see if anything new comes out of that.

Although I just assume its being done because its mandatory, but the decisions have already been made.

[Joe MacCarthy]

There is supposed to be public consultations on BMO Field Expansion tonight. Will be interesting to see if anything new comes out of that.

[Joe MacCarthy]

- Open design to let grass grow

- Hybrid grass system at BMO

- EPL experience at BMO with roof

- Adding video boards to BMO and special events like Winter Classic, MLS Cup. World Cup, Grey Cup other large events

- From 21000 to 30000 in first phase to accommodate Argos

- Very early on design for roof

- Bob Hunter on the floor. Argos done deal at BMO

- First phase of construction in time for Pan AM Games and Rugby

- Private sector majority of cost

[Joe MacCarthy]

Michael Przybyłowski ‏@prizby

Concourse and east stands should be done by May 1st, 2015; 2nd phase done by May 1st, 2016; shovels in the ground after Labour Day/CNE

[An Observer]

looks great. Would be an excellent stadium for TFC from the drawings. You don't lose the soccer experience.

I would be interested in how they add the temporary seats to expand to 40k with the roofs at the end zone

[LSM]

Sploosh.

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

Interesting to note that the head groundskeeper of Wembley says that football (he means soccer) is the hardest on the pitch (harder than NA football), especially warmups and goalkeepers who feel they have to practice in front of the goal on the pitch instead of another area.

The digging in and turning (soccer) is the hardest on the pitch and Desso holds up well to Canadian/American football. Paint removal is an issue killing grass.

One thing in Toronto's favour is that unlike England they don't play through the winter where maintenance, ie lack of sun, cold temperatures are issues complicating upkeep.

[narduch]

Keep in mind that this is still just a proposal. A lot can change by the time they start building.

I'm still skeptical that they can properly remove Canadian football lines from the field without damaging the grass.

I'm not ready to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will be able to keep an authentic soccer experience. Right now its just all talk.

[narduch]

I would be interested in how they add the temporary seats to expand to 40k with the roofs at the end zone

I'm wondering that as well.

There was talk at the meeting that the roof would be similar to the old Olympic Stadium and BC Place type. A cloth type material that can be removed (to help the grass grow when there is no events).

[Tuscan]

You know, the authentic soccer experience has nothing to do with the fact a CFL team will be playing in the same stadium. Alot of the ho-ing and hum-ing that's out there seems to stem not from some actual tangible aspect of the stadium but rather an abstract belief that somehow BMO Field will be irrevocably changed for the worse. The fans make the atmosphere, and always have at every live match I've been to either at BMO or any of the other stadia in the country. Let's just be happy that it is a soccer stadium being retrofitted for football rather than a football stadium being used temporarily for soccer. Ford Field in Detroit was utter **** for the Canada-US match at the 2011GC.

[narduch]

Alot of the ho-ing and hum-ing that's out there seems to stem not from some actual tangible aspect of the stadium but rather an abstract belief that somehow BMO Field will be irrevocably changed for the worse.

There is no tangible proof that Canadian football and soccer can co-exist on real grass. That's were all the consternation is coming from.

Right now the assurances from MLSE suits is that they will ensure the playing surface is authentic for soccer. Meanwhile at yesterday's event they left a lot of important questions unanswered.

But based on how cheap this proposed design looks, my guess is that they will eventually cheap out on the playing surface and sport-to-sport transition as well.

I still believe in my prediction: within 5 years of the Argos moving to BMO Field the playing surface will be changed to a fully artificial turf again. I have seen no concrete evidence that this won't end bad for soccer.

[Sport Shaman]

There is no tangible proof that Canadian football and soccer can co-exist on real grass. That's were all the consternation is coming from.

Right now the assurances from MLSE suits is that they will ensure the playing surface is authentic for soccer. Meanwhile at yesterday's event they left a lot of important questions unanswered.

But based on how cheap this proposed design looks, my guess is that they will eventually cheap out on the playing surface and sport-to-sport transition as well.

I still believe in my prediction: within 5 years of the Argos moving to BMO Field the playing surface will be changed to a fully artificial turf again. I have seen no concrete evidence that this won't end bad for soccer.

But apparently you have seen evidence to the contrary?? What is your "evidence" that it will end badly for soccer?? You are asking for evidence but what you are holding up in return is one person's opinion. I doubt that even if there was some compelling "evidence" that it would meet whatever burden of proof you might believe it requires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

Clearly nobody really knows how this would turn out until it happens, in spite of any of your assertions that you have a magic crystal ball with a five year horizon.

[narduch]

But apparently you have seen evidence to the contrary?? .

There are countless real life examples. This is what I've ascertained after years of watching professional sports. The most recent example was the Houston playoff game last season. Look at what happened in Seattle, where a playoff game was played with lines on the field. And lets not forget the infamous World Cup Qualifier in Edmonton 10 years back. Is that what we want to see happen to BMO Field?

The TFC FO guys themselves admitted that they weren't exactly sure how they would pull it off. All they did was promise that the soccer experience not change.

I really want to believe that they have a solution to not kill the authentic soccer experience at BMO Field. The burden of proof is on MLSE, not me. And they have yet to show any proof. All they have done so far is talk.

[lazlo_80]

There are countless real life examples. This is what I've ascertained after years of watching professional sports. The most recent example was the Houston playoff game last season. Look at what happened in Seattle, where a playoff game was played with lines on the field. And lets not forget the infamous World Cup Qualifier in Edmonton 10 years back. Is that what we want to see happen to BMO Field?

The TFC FO guys themselves admitted that they weren't exactly sure how they would pull it off. All they did was promise that the soccer experience not change.

I really want to believe that they have a solution to not kill the authentic soccer experience at BMO Field. The burden of proof is on MLSE, not me. And they have yet to show any proof. All they have done so far is talk.

Narduch, I totally understand the concern and I'm a little skeptical as well as to how exactly they'll pull this off, though that wembley video somebody posted actually helped open my eyes a little bit.

One thing that helps me sleep a little easier at night is this.

Reading between the lines on this deal, it seems like MLSE essentially did the Argos a favor by allowing them to play at BMO because they were really in a tough spot. Lieweke just dumped $100 million into Toronto FC. This renovation to up the capacity to 30K was done with TFC in mind. Plain and simple, if we reduce it to a business case, TFC is a much bigger asset that also has a much higher ceiling of growth than the Argos do. If MLSE are the cynical businessmen they're often accused of being, they know they need to protect and grow Toronto FC first. And a big part of that is the game experience and the perception of the quality of play in MLS—not to mention protecting their millionaire players from injury. With all that in mind, I think this is very much going to be a case of making sure it's good for TFC first and the Argos second.

[narduch]

Narduch, I totally understand the concern and I'm a little skeptical as well as to how exactly they'll pull this off, though that wembley video somebody posted actually helped open my eyes a little bit.

One thing that helps me sleep a little easier at night is this.

Reading between the lines on this deal, it seems like MLSE essentially did the Argos a favor by allowing them to play at BMO because they were really in a tough spot. Lieweke just dumped $100 million into Toronto FC. This renovation to up the capacity to 30K was done with TFC in mind. Plain and simple, if we reduce it to a business case, TFC is a much bigger asset that also has a much higher ceiling of growth than the Argos do. If MLSE are the cynical businessmen they're often accused of being, they know they need to protect and grow Toronto FC first. And a big part of that is the game experience and the perception of the quality of play in MLS—not to mention protecting their millionaire players from injury. With all that in mind, I think this is very much going to be a case of making sure it's good for TFC first and the Argos second.

That isn't right at all.

This has everything to do with MLSE wanting to host an NHL outdoor game in 2017, plus MLSE not wanting a competing building to be built in the city (to house the Argos). TFC is an after thought in this.

MLSE can probably make more revenue from one outdoor NHL game than an entire TFC season. They can (and will) charge that much for an outdoor Leafs game. Plus there is merchandise and advertising revenue that goes with these types of games.

Sure, they don't want to ruin the good thing that TFC has. But its wishful thinking to believe they will be successful where everyone else has failed.

If they were truly interested in protecting TFC they would tell the City and the Argos to go **** off. But because this has more to do with an outdoor Leafs game they are willing to **** over soccer to make it happen.

[lazlo_80]

That isn't right at all.

This has everything to do with MLSE wanting to host an NHL outdoor game in 2017, plus MLSE not wanting a competing building to be built in the city (to house the Argos). TFC is an after thought in this.

MLSE can probably make more revenue from one outdoor NHL game than an entire TFC season. They can (and will) charge that much for an outdoor Leafs game. Plus there is merchandise and advertising revenue that goes with these types of games.

Sure, they don't want to ruin the good thing that TFC has. But its wishful thinking to believe they will be successful where everyone else has failed.

If they were truly interested in protecting TFC they would tell the City and the Argos to go **** off. But because this has more to do with an outdoor Leafs game they are willing to **** over soccer to make it happen.

We agree to disagree I suppose. Everything Lieweke has said is about making TFC the second biggest team in the market next to the NHL. From the look of the first plans they're building a soccer stadium that a football team will play in and will occasionally host an NHL game. But it will still be a soccer stadium first. City politics are alot more convoluted then simply telling someone to go "**** off" and assume everything will be hunky dory, it's way way way way way more complicated then that. I don't think it's wishful thinking because I don't think we've seen a scenario like this before.

again. Time will tell.

[narduch]

We agree to disagree I suppose. Everything Lieweke has said is about making TFC the second biggest team in the market next to the NHL. From the look of the first plans they're building a soccer stadium that a football team will play in and will occasionally host an NHL game. But it will still be a soccer stadium first. City politics are alot more convoluted then simply telling someone to go "**** off" and assume everything will be hunky dory, it's way way way way way more complicated then that. I don't think it's wishful thinking because I don't think we've seen a scenario like this before.

again. Time will tell.

The purpose of the expansion is to host outdoor Leafs games. At this point in time it wasn't even necessary to expand the seating capacity for TFC. The demand simply isn't there. (although a roof would have been nice).

The city has told MLSE that they will only be allowed to expand the stadium if they make useful for Canadian football.

MLSE didn't need to expand the stadium under these circumstances. But they are choosing to do so, at the detriment to TFC (and soccer in general).