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Trillium

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the fact that TFC shelled out beaucoup bucks for one time use of grass pitch, plus decent appearance fee for Liverpool reserves was pretty galling as well

That game was put on by an independent promoter, not TFC.

In fact, TFC was also paid a fee to appear in that game. They probably should have passed, though.

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NFL FRANCHISE SURVEY SENT TO TORONTO CORPORATE COMMUNITY

It appears that due diligence is being done to bring an NFL franchise to Toronto.

In a letter received by TSN, members of the city's corporate community are being asked for feedback on the potential of an NFL franchise and stadium in the Greater Toronto Area.

The letter, which was sent from CSL International - a sports facility planning and advisory firm based in Texas - states that Toronto is "at the forefront of potential relocation markets" for the NFL.

While the letter also states that no decisions have been made regarding bringing an NFL team to Toronto, it includes a survey to assess how it may provide an "exciting experience for fans and the corporate community alike."

The letter did not specify whose interests were being represented.

Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=442603

So maybe now we know why MLSE/Larry T is interested buying the Argos and moving them to BMO field.

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NFL FRANCHISE SURVEY SENT TO TORONTO CORPORATE COMMUNITY

Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=442603

So maybe now we know why MLSE/Larry T is interested buying the Argos and moving them to BMO field.

So...a sport facility management firm, sent a letter claiming that Toronto is at the forefront for NFL relocation...but won't say they are operating in the interests of the NFL? Sounds like snake oil to me.

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NFL FRANCHISE SURVEY SENT TO TORONTO CORPORATE COMMUNITY

Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=442603

So maybe now we know why MLSE/Larry T is interested buying the Argos and moving them to BMO field.

Due diligence? I guess that's possible. But I doubt it.

To my mind its more likely just some speculator (and one that may or may not have actual real access to an NFL franchise by the way) is in the process of casting about in search of opportunities around North America which they can pitch at interested owners. New or existing owners that is.

And those so-called "opportunities" may be nothing more than creating hollow, bat-****-crazy, inferences that a franchise may relocate to Toronto if said franchise doesn't get some sort of obscene tax assisted program (stadia development, municipal tax free zone, etc) from the current local government.

So without even getting into the questions of whether the NFL collectively would want into Toronto over, oh I don't know, lets say Los Angles, which sounds more likely? A new billion dollar venture coming to town which will receive absolutely no government funding (what government will pay to kill the CFL in Toronto?) or just some more of that boring, predictable, and low budget scheming designed to leverage one municipality, in this case Toronto, against another. Those US politicians do love their sports franchises don't they?

Maybe I'm just cynical but .... yeah.

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Several points:

- Bills aren't only team facing relocation in NFL (Jacksonville Jaguars and maybe San Diego Chargers might be relocated to Los Angeles) . I predict both L.A. and Toronto will get a team in 5-10 years time.

Jerry Jones says two NFL teams could move to Los Angeles

Source: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/jerry-jones-says-two-nfl-teams-could-move-033951143.html

Point is: NFL is trying to grow and they're pretty much maxed out in North America with only couple of markets left (Toronto and L.A.).

- Ralph Wilson's family have no plans to own Bills once Ralph Wilson dies (I believe he's in his 90's now). There's no one crazy enough to buy Bills and keep them in Buffalo where they're struggling to sell out games despite having cheapest ticket prices in the league.

- Government money might come from hosting World Cup and building a new stadium to host World Cup final game in Toronto.

- Argos aren't going to die since NFL needs a stable CFL to fight against anti-trust laws. MLSE buying Argos and putting them at BMO field is to show NFL that they will take care of them if Bills ends up moving to Toronto.

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Several points:

- Bills aren't only team facing relocation in NFL (Jacksonville Jaguars and maybe San Diego Chargers might be relocated to Los Angeles) . I predict both L.A. and Toronto will get a team in 5-10 years time.

Shahid Khan who owns Jacksonville also owns Fulham FC. If Jacksonville goes anywhere which is speculative, I think we can assume where they might go, and it ain't Toronto.

Point is: NFL is trying to grow and they're pretty much maxed out in North America with only couple of markets left (Toronto and L.A.).
NFL doesn't need or want more teams they want stable markets. If they really wanted another team they would have had one in LA a long time ago. They're getting along just fine without them.

I doubt if the NFL wants Toronto, what could they possibly add, especially if the Canadian dollar slide starts to settle. According to ex MLSE Richard Peddie, David Stein told him the NBA didn't want Toronto but when the owners pondered the expansion fee they got greedy. NFL teams are these guys playtoys, it's an exclusive club, they don't need anybody else. Also have to laugh at the Bon Jovi rumours. Braley's net worth makes Bon Jovi look like Skid Row, Braley should put in a bid :)

- Ralph Wilson's family have no plans to own Bills once Ralph Wilson dies (I believe he's in his 90's now). There's no one crazy enough to buy Bills and keep them in Buffalo
Jim Kelly for one and he is a Wilson family favourite. There are one or two other unnamed groups

- Government money might come from hosting World Cup and building a new stadium to host World Cup final game in Toronto.
There's no way any government money for a structure would be flipped to host an NFL team, political suicide for a federal party.
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Shahid Khan who owns Jacksonville also owns Fulham FC. If Jacksonville goes anywhere which is speculative, I think we can assume where they might go, and it ain't Toronto.

NFL doesn't need or want more teams they want stable markets. If they really wanted another team they would have had one in LA a long time ago. They're getting along just fine without them.

I just posted a source to back up my claim. The fact owner of biggest NFL team is speaking openly having two NFL teams relocating to L.A. tells me not everything is fine.

I doubt if the NFL wants Toronto, what could they possibly add, especially if the Canadian dollar slide starts to settle. According to ex MLSE Richard Peddie, David Stein told him the NBA didn't want Toronto but when the owners pondered the expansion fee they got greedy. NFL teams are these guys playtoys, it's an exclusive club, they don't need anybody else. Also have to laugh at the Bon Jovi rumours. Braley's net worth makes Bon Jovi look like Skid Row, Braley should put in a bid :)

.90 to $1 isn't that huge of difference. It's not like 90's where CDN dollar was only worth .60 US cent. Besides, even declining dollar, Toronto will bring more money to the table than Bills.

If Braley loaded with cash, then why is he so cheap not build a stadium or even practice facility for Argos? You know right now, Argos don't have a practice facility since they got kicked by University of Toronto recently.

Jim Kelly for one and he is a Wilson family favourite. There are one or two other unnamed groups

Who knows how much money they have and willing to lose in market like Western New York where there isn't much money to make.

There's no way any government money for a structure would be flipped to host an NFL team, political suicide for a federal party.

We'll see about that when time comes. CFL isn't that strong in Toronto and you can't force a market to accept CFL. Federal government would support and provide financial support to CSA to host world cup in Canada if they manage to win the bid. Just like BMO field, the city will most likely own it and have MLSE run it to make money for City.

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There's no way any government money for a structure would be flipped to host an NFL team, political suicide for a federal party.

Public funding for any professional sports facility is difficult for any party/level of government even in sports like hockey where the majority of people like the sport. NFL would be impossible for any party to support, indeed it would be hard for any party even to support a bid that did not require any government funding. I think anyone thinking of a Canadian NFL franchise is vastly underestimating the strong amount of absolute hostility there would be to the idea both among sports and non-sports fans. Among sports fans there would be a percentage supporting it but probably an equally large percentage totally hostile to the idea. Leagues like MLB and NBA were not supplanting any Canadian leagues or traditions so they were not met with opposition. And they haven't done that well in Canada either, each having one of two teams move and surviving in Toronto only due to the massive population of the metro area. Attendances were a bit better for both this year than in recent years but even in good years their attendances are usually about middle of the league, nothing compared to what they should be in a city of Toronto's size. And that is with far lower ticket prices than NFL and lots of special deals. The Buffalo Bills games in Toronto are having difficulty getting 40 000 people in the stadium. Half of the 1/3 of Canadians even interested in the Super Bowl at all are more interested in the commercials than the game. And I would bet even a fairly high percentage of those Canadians watching the Super Bowl would be opposed to a NFL team here even without government money. I don't see any sound business plan that would justify spending 2 billion to bring NFL to Toronto.

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.90 to $1 isn't that huge of difference. It's not like 90's where CDN dollar was only worth .60 US cent.

You know right now, Argos don't have a practice facility since they got kicked by University of Toronto recently.

10 percent of your business lost isn't big when you have to pay salaries in US dollars? Glad you're not running my company. And I think you'll see that regardless of what happens the Argos will likely be at KIA.
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10 percent of your business lost isn't big when you have to pay salaries in US dollars? Glad you're not running my company. And I think you'll see that regardless of what happens the Argos will likely be at KIA.

And I believe they will get piece of US TV deal in US dollars. So what's your point? You're making too big of a deal than it really is. MLSE are used dealing with dollar issue. It doesn't really affect their business in the end like you make it out to be.

KIA is TFC training ground owned by MLSE. I don't see current owner of Argos building anything for Argos despite hearing how "loaded" this particular owner is from CFL fans. Why can't you admit Argos current owner is cheap?

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I still have no idea what point you're trying to make aside from the fact you don't want the Argos at BMO. All I'm trying to say is that it is likely to happen whether you personally like it or not. So you can complain about them all you want but it looks like a fait a compli.

I might admit Braley was cheap if he wouldn't do things like donate 50 million to a hospital and then I still wouldn't know what point you're trying to make. MLSE doesn't want another facility around for competition so they'll do what they can (buy Argos) to make sure he doesn't build one or partner with someone else to build one. Is that your point?

Why can't you admit it's likely the Argos are coming to BMO? There really isn't anything else to debate because that is the point, Argos to BMO.

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Why can't you admit it's likely the Argos are coming to BMO? There really isn't anything else to debate because that is the point, Argos to BMO.

Agreed. It's likely happening, and we may get some better stands out of it. BMO is nice and all ... but would be nice not to have to bring plastic baggies for the cell phone when it's torrenting.

Sure, it's not ideal for the pitch. But it sounds like we'll still have a soccer-specific stadium (as opposed to a soccer-exclusive stadium, which we've never had), and it will still be far better than the concrete and plastic pitch we had for 2007-2009.

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^ Amen. And if the Argos are truly coming to BMO, really the only issue is the turf. Movable stands, roof, field lines can be dealt with but the true unknown is the condition of the field. Ground sharing is done in quite a few places but there doesn't seem to be a lot of quantitative info over time aside from the few inevitable horror stories.

Most of the ground shares in Europe involve rugby, whether true or not Leiweke says rugby is harder on turf than football. There must be many cases in US colleges of both football and soccer teams sharing a turf field. Found this partial list of football turf stadiums, I assume most have soccer programs (men and women as well):

Schools with cold climates (freezing temps and snow are normal) who still have grass:

BYU

Connecticut

Michigan State

Notre Dame

Northwestern

Penn State

Pitt (NFL stadium)

Purdue

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Public funding for any professional sports facility is difficult for any party/level of government even in sports like hockey where the majority of people like the sport. NFL would be impossible for any party to support, indeed it would be hard for any party even to support a bid that did not require any government funding. I think anyone thinking of a Canadian NFL franchise is vastly underestimating the strong amount of absolute hostility there would be to the idea both among sports and non-sports fans. Among sports fans there would be a percentage supporting it but probably an equally large percentage totally hostile to the idea. Leagues like MLB and NBA were not supplanting any Canadian leagues or traditions so they were not met with opposition. And they haven't done that well in Canada either, each having one of two teams move and surviving in Toronto only due to the massive population of the metro area. Attendances were a bit better for both this year than in recent years but even in good years their attendances are usually about middle of the league, nothing compared to what they should be in a city of Toronto's size. And that is with far lower ticket prices than NFL and lots of special deals. The Buffalo Bills games in Toronto are having difficulty getting 40 000 people in the stadium. Half of the 1/3 of Canadians even interested in the Super Bowl at all are more interested in the commercials than the game. And I would bet even a fairly high percentage of those Canadians watching the Super Bowl would be opposed to a NFL team here even without government money. I don't see any sound business plan that would justify spending 2 billion to bring NFL to Toronto.

Another factor is to my mind greater wish by young Canadians to again get Canada being defined differently from the US, older folks might want access to the US for winters ..or to retire ( but we are not getting that with Obama ), but when I hear young people talk its about being different from the US and its cultural power.

How that factors to sports and the NFL I think is relevant to some of Grizzly's points in that political will to fund an NFL stadia for MLSE is not very likely to ever occur in the next 20 years of political evolution in this Country.

Indeed well I hate the Bank of Canada's cynical manipulation of the currency to dip into my pocket and steal money by encouraging a devaluation, to encourage foriegn buyers of Canadian assets, it does make the idea of domestic only Div 2 League much more viable if we can have NASL level franchises operate in the current CFL cities and add in second teams ( DIV 2 ) in the GTA and Montreal as well as Quebec and Halifax.

The business case for the Fury and the Eddies if successfull can only encourage other local investors in other markets to believe a Div 2 franchise can be a money maker.

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Another factor is to my mind greater wish by young Canadians to again get Canada being defined differently from the US, older folks might want access to the US for winters ..or to retire ( but we are not getting that with Obama ), but when I hear young people talk its about being different from the US and its cultural power.
I hope you are right re being defined differently. As for access to the US for winters, we should revisit the Turks and Caicos question, get 'er done, and screw going to Florida.

How that factors to sports and the NFL I think is relevant to some of Grizzly's points in that political will to fund an NFL stadia for MLSE is not very likely to ever occur in the next 20 years of political evolution in this Country.
Right again, the feds won't fund Canadian professional sport's infrastructure why the hell would they fund the biggest sports moneymaker on the planet (an American business).

The business case for the Fury and the Eddies if successfull can only encourage other local investors in other markets to believe a Div 2 franchise can be a money maker.
Hope so.
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^ Amen. And if the Argos are truly coming to BMO, really the only issue is the turf. Movable stands, roof, field lines can be dealt with but the true unknown is the condition of the field. Ground sharing is done in quite a few places but there doesn't seem to be a lot of quantitative info over time aside from the few inevitable horror stories.

Most of the ground shares in Europe involve rugby, whether true or not Leiweke says rugby is harder on turf than football.

...

You can have some pretty smart grass pitches even with ground sharing if you're willing to absorb the related costs. I think for MLS more the half of the season it shouldn't be any sort of issue, no CFL until high summer and the grass can take a pounding during peak growing season so with a diligent ground crew there shouldn't be any big issues if the schedule co-operates. But come autumn...when the football in both leagues really starts to get serious pitch fatigue will be both inescapable and spot-lighted.

Leiweke may be right about the wear and tear rugby brings but I don't recall him ever mentioning how often pitches get relayed in some of those stadiums he's used as examples. Multiple times every winter and at what cost (hundreds of thousands of pounds each time).

If they're willing to make a long term commitment to that sort of exercise every season then fair enough. If they're not that's another matter.

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I'm sorry if this has been discussed but isn't the larger issue the football lines and CFL advertising? They always seems to be an outline of where they were. I'm not so much concerned with the usage. Also, rugby has very few lines and would make it easier to erase those. Thoughts?

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I really don't see the need for on field signage in this day and age. The technology is there to key it in electronically, much like the 10 yard yellow line supered on the screen for football. Also the sideline LED boards could substitute for ads for football sponsors the same as they do for soccer.

I don't think some faint football lines will be of much concern if the field turns out to be a torn up mess. All we have is conjecture on this and no quantitative evidence on how big an issue this will be.

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You can have some pretty smart grass pitches even with ground sharing if you're willing to absorb the related costs. I think for MLS more the half of the season it shouldn't be any sort of issue, no CFL until high summer and the grass can take a pounding during peak growing season so with a diligent ground crew there shouldn't be any big issues if the schedule co-operates. But come autumn...when the football in both leagues really starts to get serious pitch fatigue will be both inescapable and spot-lighted.
Good points

Multiple times every winter and at what cost (hundreds of thousands of pounds each time).
Another good point is that many European leagues are on a winter schedule. Less sun and warmth has to lessen the growth, under soil heating aside. So football should have the worst conditions in the final month of November but they will have it to themselves.
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Part of the incentive here should be for MLS to improve their scheduling. Last year was absolutely ridiculous. The playoffs stretched far too long and I wonder if anybody cared at the end of the day.

They should be done by late October - early November at the latest.

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Part of the incentive here should be for MLS to improve their scheduling. Last year was absolutely ridiculous. The playoffs stretched far too long and I wonder if anybody cared at the end of the day.

They should be done by late October - early November at the latest.

Playoffs at BMO? When has that ever happened? When will it ever happen? Yes I know half the TFC posters think they are a superclub now with their new signings but I will believe that when I see it.

And I agree the playoffs go on too long but some club turning their soccer specific stadium into a multi-sport stadium for a money grab and having pitch problems isn't going to be the motivation to change that.

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