CMNT 2012 vs CMNT 2008

[nolando]

We’ve done some comparing of our current squad with the likes of Honduras, Panama, and Cuba. I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the current squad and compare it directly with the squad that was called in for exactly this stage four years ago in 2008.

I’ve tried to be fair in comparing player to player, taking into account not only the player’s club form during the year in question, but the status and league of the club and the ability level of the player in question. Lots to dispute, of course, but the squads are fairly evenly matched in my own opinion with the advantage (6 to 3) to the 2008 squad.

(2012 members in italics- bolded and italics if 2008 and 2012 member)

Goalkeepers

Pat Onstad GK Houston MLS ---- Milan Borjan GK FC Vaslui Romania (tie)

Lars Hirschfeld GK CFR Cluj Romania ---- Valerenga Norway (tie)

Greg Sutton GK Toronto FC MLS ---- Kenny Stamatopoulos AIK Sweden (tie)

Defenders

Adrian Serioux D/M FC Dallas MLS ---- David Edgar Burnley England (2012)

Kevin McKenna D FC Köln Germany ---- (tie)

Dejan Jakovic D Red Star Belgrade Serbia ---- DC United MLS (2012)

Paul Stalteri D/M Tottenham England ---- Andre Hainault Houston MLS (2008)

Richard Hastings D Inverness CT Scotland ---- Ashtone Morgan (TFC) (tie)

Daniel Imhof D/M VfL Bochum Germany ----Samuel Piette unattached (2008)

Ante Jazic D LA Galaxy MLS ---- Chivas USA MLS (tie)

Mike Klukowski D Club Brugge Belgium ---- Manisaspor Turkey (tie)

Jim Brennan D Toronto FC MLS --- Nik Ledgerwood SV Wehen Wiesbaden B3 (2008)

Midfielders

Atiba Hutchinson M FC København Denmark ---- PSV Holland (tie)

Julian de Guzman M Deportivo La Coruna Spain ----TFC MLS (2008)

Dwayne De Rosario M/F Houston Dynamo MLS ---- DC United (tie)

Patrice Bernier M FC Nordsjælland Denmark ---- Will Johnson RSL MLS (tie)

Issey Nakajima-Farran M FC Nordsjælland Denmark ---- AEK Lanarca Cyprus (tie)

Strikers

Rob Friend F Mönchengladbach B2 Germany – Simeon Jackson Norwich Premiership England (tie)

Ali Gerba F Milton Keynes Dons Lg 1 England ---- Tosaint Ricketts Timisoara (2008)

Iain Hume F Barnsley Champ England ---- Preston North End Lg 1 (tie)

Olivier Occean F Lillestrøm SK Norway ---- Greuther Furth B2 (2012)

Tomasz Radzinski M/F Lierse Belgium ---- Pedro Pacheco Santa Clara Portugal 2 (2008)

- only one player (McKenna) at the same club where he was four years ago

- eleven returning players

- three clear upgrades (Edgar from Serioux, Occean and Jakovic in 2012 from Occean and Jakovic in 2008)

- six clear downgrades (Brennan to Ledgerwood, Radzinski to Pacheco, Stalteri to Hainault, Imhof to Piette, Gerba to Ricketts, 2008 de Guzman to 2012 de Guzman)

[Soccerpro]

We’ve done some comparing of our current squad with the likes of Honduras, Panama, and Cuba. I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the current squad and compare it directly with the squad that was called in for exactly this stage four years ago in 2008.

I’ve tried to be fair in comparing player to player, taking into account not only the player’s club form during the year in question, but the status and league of the club and the ability level of the player in question. Lots to dispute, of course, but the squads are fairly evenly matched in my own opinion with the advantage (6 to 3) to the 2008 squad.

(2012 members in italics- bolded and italics if 2008 and 2012 member)

Goalkeepers

Pat Onstad GK Houston MLS ---- Milan Borjan GK FC Vaslui Romania (tie)

Lars Hirschfeld GK CFR Cluj Romania ---- Valerenga Norway (tie)

Greg Sutton GK Toronto FC MLS ---- Kenny Stamatopoulos AIK Sweden (tie)

Defenders

Adrian Serioux D/M FC Dallas MLS ---- David Edgar Burnley England (2012)

Kevin McKenna D FC Köln Germany ---- (tie)

Dejan Jakovic D Red Star Belgrade Serbia ---- DC United MLS (2012)

Paul Stalteri D/M Tottenham England ---- Andre Hainault Houston MLS (2008)

Richard Hastings D Inverness CT Scotland ---- Ashtone Morgan (TFC) (tie)

Daniel Imhof D/M VfL Bochum Germany ----Samuel Piette unattached (2008)

Ante Jazic D LA Galaxy MLS ---- Chivas USA MLS (tie)

Mike Klukowski D Club Brugge Belgium ---- Manisaspor Turkey (tie)

Jim Brennan D Toronto FC MLS --- Nik Ledgerwood SV Wehen Wiesbaden B3 (2008)

Midfielders

Atiba Hutchinson M FC København Denmark ---- PSV Holland (tie)

Julian de Guzman M Deportivo La Coruna Spain ----TFC MLS (2008)

Dwayne De Rosario M/F Houston Dynamo MLS ---- DC United (tie)

Patrice Bernier M FC Nordsjælland Denmark ---- Will Johnson RSL MLS (tie)

Issey Nakajima-Farran M FC Nordsjælland Denmark ---- AEK Lanarca Cyprus (tie)

Strikers

Rob Friend F Mönchengladbach B2 Germany – Simeon Jackson Norwich Premiership England (tie)

Ali Gerba F Milton Keynes Dons Lg 1 England ---- Tosaint Ricketts Timisoara (2008)

Iain Hume F Barnsley Champ England ---- Preston North End Lg 1 (tie)

Olivier Occean F Lillestrøm SK Norway ---- Greuther Furth B2 (2012)

Tomasz Radzinski M/F Lierse Belgium ---- Pedro Pacheco Santa Clara Portugal 2 (2008)

- only one player (McKenna) at the same club where he was four years ago

- eleven returning players

- three clear upgrades (Edgar from Serioux, Occean and Jakovic in 2012 from Occean and Jakovic in 2008)

- six clear downgrades (Brennan to Ledgerwood, Radzinski to Pacheco, Stalteri to Hainault, Imhof to Piette, Gerba to Ricketts, 2008 de Guzman to 2012 de Guzman)

IMHO biggest losses = Gerba to Rickets and Radzinski to Pacheco. If Hainault replicates his form for Houston, Diesel won't be much of a loss.

How the hell is this team going to score enough goals to do anything?

[Alex]

Re scoring: When's the last time we had two players (occean, dero) that led their respective leagues in scoring the last season? And a player that scored 5? for a premiership team?

[killgod]

Re scoring: When's the last time we had two players (occean, dero) that led their respective leagues in scoring the last season? And a player that scored 5? for a premiership team?

Humey is always good for 1 or 2 off the bench too.

[Scottie]

Yes, yes our team is worse off than the previous team on paper. I'm not about to dig up the clubs of all our players on the 2000 gold cup squad or the 86 world cup team, but I'd venture a guess that those teams wouldn't look as good as the 2008 team did on paper. Which means absolutely jack ****.

[Jcm144]

2008 squad is slightly better on paper then our current team, but that doesn't mean a thing. I had much higher expectations for the 2008 team, the results were crushing. This year I'm going into this qualifying campaign with the mindset that anything can happen.

[lazlo_80]

My one big disagreement is 2008 Rob Friend and 2012 Simeon Jackson are not a tie. Simeon in my mind is a lot better.

[lazlo_80]

Just another comment, even the same players are not always a tie. Case in point Occean in 2012 is a far better player than Occean in 2008.

[Free kick]

- six clear downgrades (Brennan to Ledgerwood, Radzinski to Pacheco, Stalteri to Hainault, Imhof to Piette, Gerba to Ricketts, 2008 de Guzman to 2012 de Guzman)

I cannot agree that Stalteri to Hainault is a downgrade? IMHO, Stalteri has not stood out in NT colours since Holger Oscieck was coach. Or more specifically, since the time that he was moved to RB from his previous role in MF. I did think he was very valuable (maybe even our best player) on our national team prior to that time but since then i have seen several key missed defensive plays that decided our fate in WCQ that can be attributable in whole or in part to his play or other Half backs. Might want to dig up that video of that opening goal that Guatemala scored against us in 2004. Also, i cannot say that he has been effective as a HB in supporting the offense. Prior to 2004, its another story.

Other than that, i agree with the notion that this squad (on paper) is a bit of downgrade from previous editions.

PS.: Off the top of my head, I can think of an aweful lot of key plays or goals against (in big MNT matches over the past 15 years) that can be attributable in whole or in part to sub par play by our HB's or that could have been prevented by quality play from HB's. I cant say the same (off the top of my head) about our CB's, who i think have been pretty good. As far as HB's, think of: Stalteri versus Guatemala (1st goal), Jazic on back pass at Commonwealth, Kluka versus Honduras in Montreal trying to cover Suazo.

And this is coming from someone who has seen a horror show with CB's from TFC over the past five years.

[El Hombre]

The argument in the original post is flawed because it doesn't take into account the starting position of each player and the comparison from one player to another seems random.

For example, why are you comparing Hastings to Morgan? Hastings was a starting CB for us and Morgan might be our #2 LB. Same goes for Radzinski and Pacheco as Radz was a starter which I doubt Pacheco will be. Same for comparing Gerba to Ricketts. Both Gerba and Friend occupy the starting spot that will be taken by Olivier Occean.

I did a similar analysis of our starting lineups in post 36 of the roster thread and I think the 2012 version is much better, on paper than the 2008 version. Personally, I think having McKenna and Edgar starting in place of Serioux and Hastings is a clear upgrade. As is either Borjan or Hirschfeld over a 2008 Onstad. Hainault vs. Stalteri can be debated. As for the midfield, I don't think Will Johnson's skillset is being given the credit it deserves and I think a 2012 Hutch is better than a 2008 Hutch. And, based on league form alone, I'd take a 2012 Occean over any of the attacking options we had in 2008 and I'm a huge Rob Friend fan.

Also, how is a 2008 Jim Brennan who quits on the team after the second game an upgrade over Ledgerwood?

[villus]

I think the starting 11 are pretty close, I think our defense is def better this go around, Kluka is maybe a bit worse than he was in 2008 but McKenna/Jackovic/Edgar are def an upgrade and I would argue that Hainault is probably an upgrade defensively, last WCQ Stalteri was very poor and already not really playing at club level if I recall correctly. Stalteri is better going forward in link up play, but Hainault is a threat on set pieces in the air.

JDG is probably a significant drop off, he was arguably at his career peak in and around 2008, Hutch is playing better than he was in 2008 and Johnson and Bernier are probably a pretty close tradeoff. Jackson for Radz offers more speed for counterattacks but Radz offered a lot in other areas, not necessarily a drop off just a difference in what they bring, I think DeRo is playing better now then he was in 2008 but not by all that much. Striker I think OO is an upgrade.

Overall I think on paper the starting 11 might be a bit better, our GK and Defense are a def upgrade our depth is probably pretty poor without DeJong and Simpson but OO should be an upgrade at striker based on form and playing style but again unless we go for a speed player off the bench we don't have much depth. Our Midfield is prob pretty close, a weaker JDG though is a pretty big blow as he was great at times in 2008 but if he can raise his game our midfield still could be quite good, these players having more time to play together also could increase our chances as the main core should have a good understanding of each other but again the main core has also been one that has underachieved as well.

[villus]

Also I think Mitchell was a terrible coach and showed that at U-20 an with the MNT, so I think thats a major issue, not saying Hart is a savior but at least hes a players coach, Mitchell was'nt a players guy and also was tactically poor.

[Sam]

I think without a doubt the 2008 squad was better than this one. BUT there were some serious issues with that camp that were exemplified by the exodus before the game down in Honduras. Also there was very little consistency leading up the campaign and we had no idea what we would really see, whereas this group knows each other and the system much better than the lack of any real system we had under Mitchell.

[Free kick]

I think without a doubt the 2008 squad was better than this one. BUT there were some serious issues with that camp that were exemplified by the exodus before the game down in Honduras. Also there was very little consistency leading up the campaign and we had no idea what we would really see, whereas this group knows each other and the system much better than the lack of any real system we had under Mitchell.

This is the wild card element that could play in our favour. There is more familiarity and semblance of unity. Also we are in the easiest qualifying group than we have ever had since 1996. In 1996 we did make it to the hex.

If we can make it to the hex, then the players will have had (and will get) several more games under their belt to gain that familiarity, ability to read and anticipate each others movement.

The goal should always be to qualify for the world cup and thats the ultimate measure of success. So just because canada makes it to the hex, it woulnt necessesay mean that this squad is more talented than previous editions. But playing those extra games has a snowball effect that can build momentum not only for the team building (now and in 2016 and 2018) but also to gain traction with the fan base.

Also, believing that if you are less talented or an underdog, it often means that players will be less selfish, work harder and be more likely to buy into a system. I maintain to this day, that having MLS in canada and clubs involved in CCL play, has been an eye opener and has allowed us to get a better read on where we stand in the regional pecking order in regards to individual talent. This is something that you couldnt do when no one in canada knew anything about MLS and when you had squad made up entirely of players scattered throughout Europe in levels of play that no one could assess.

[nolando]

My one big disagreement is 2008 Rob Friend and 2012 Simeon Jackson are not a tie. Simeon in my mind is a lot better.

By the end of the 2007-2008 season Friend had 18 goals in B2, one more than the celebrated Occean this year, and his team vaulted back to the Bundesliga. 18 goals on the 19th best club in Germany trumps 3 goals on England's 12th best team IMO. It would be different if Simeon were scoring like a barrel-chested Gerba for Canada but that's simply not the case either.

[nolando]

I cannot agree that Stalteri to Hainault is a downgrade? IMHO, Stalteri has not stood out in NT colours since Holger Oscieck was coach.

I was torn on this one until I read that Hainault was an unused sub twice this year already for Houston and while Stalteri was unused at Tottenham, at least he was a Premiership player. But yah, I'd be willing to concede a tie as I'm no big Stalteri revisionist.

[nolando]

The argument in the original post is flawed because it doesn't take into account the starting position of each player and the comparison from one player to another seems random.

For example, why are you comparing Hastings to Morgan? Hastings was a starting CB for us and Morgan might be our #2 LB. Same goes for Radzinski and Pacheco as Radz was a starter which I doubt Pacheco will be. Same for comparing Gerba to Ricketts. Both Gerba and Friend occupy the starting spot that will be taken by Olivier Occean.

As is either Borjan or Hirschfeld over a 2008 Onstad.

Also, how is a 2008 Jim Brennan who quits on the team after the second game an upgrade over Ledgerwood?

It was totally flawed and only done for fun and for some chatter on the board. Some people get major Pre Match Syndrome around here before the big ones - notice how many are crabby?

Jim Brennan was stil pretty celebrated at the start of this round, which is what I was going by. And he still had a lot to offer. Ledgerwood has neither quality, I'm afraid, nor ever will.

In 2008, Onstad lead the MLS in goals against average and was ultra stable at club level, FWIW.

Some of the weirder pairings were done simply because I needed somebody at least somewhat comparable do complete the 22 vs 22. Hastings was a LB for years if I recall correctly, including many matches at that position for Canada, for instance.

[El Hombre]

It was totally flawed and only done for fun and for some chatter on the board. Some people get major Pre Match Syndrome around here before the big ones - notice how many are crabby?

Crabby? No. Quite the opposite. Very excited about this team and the games coming up over the next two weeks. Potentially more excited than I was in 2008. Just pointing out that two people can come to opposite conclusions depending on how the data is presented.

[jonovision]

This post includes a table with the minutes played by all players in WCQ for SA2010

http://oot-football.blogspot.ca/2008/11/wcq-2010-by-numbers-final-edition.html

Names too high on that list for my liking include Adrian Serioux, Richard Hastings, and a past it Pat Onstad. Core players who we haven't yet replaced for quality include Paul Stalteri (didn't have a great campaign, but miles ahead of likely RB starter Nik Ledgerwood) and Tomasz Radzinski. I would argue that Dwayne De Rosario is a more complete player now than in 2008, but De Guzman has fallen off (though not as far as some would suggest). Bernier had a lot of minutes, but if those are mostly taken up by Will Johnson, I think that's a plus.

But if it was just a matter of looking at two squads and comparing players, Canada would win a lot more games than we do. There are other factors at play. A clueless Mitchell vs a mediocre Hart. A slightly easier group. It's all there to play for, which is why there seems to be a lot more excitement and traffic in these parts lately.

[canucklefan]

The argument in the original post is flawed because it doesn't take into account the starting position of each player and the comparison from one player to another seems random.

For example, why are you comparing Hastings to Morgan? Hastings was a starting CB for us and Morgan might be our #2 LB. Same goes for Radzinski and Pacheco as Radz was a starter which I doubt Pacheco will be. Same for comparing Gerba to Ricketts. Both Gerba and Friend occupy the starting spot that will be taken by Olivier Occean.

I did a similar analysis of our starting lineups in post 36 of the roster thread and I think the 2012 version is much better, on paper than the 2008 version. Personally, I think having McKenna and Edgar starting in place of Serioux and Hastings is a clear upgrade. As is either Borjan or Hirschfeld over a 2008 Onstad. Hainault vs. Stalteri can be debated. As for the midfield, I don't think Will Johnson's skillset is being given the credit it deserves and I think a 2012 Hutch is better than a 2008 Hutch. And, based on league form alone, I'd take a 2012 Occean over any of the attacking options we had in 2008 and I'm a huge Rob Friend fan.

Also, how is a 2008 Jim Brennan who quits on the team after the second game an upgrade over Ledgerwood?

Exactly. These comparisons Player "A" vs Player "B" doesn't make any sense. For example, I fail to see the connection between Radzinski and Pacheco. Unless I'm missing something, Radz plays as second striker (or enganche) or central striker while Pacheco plays central midfielder or attacking midfielder. Where is the need to compare the 2 players?

Also, stating: Atiba Hutchinson M FC København Denmark ---- PSV Holland (tie), it doesn't make sense.

There are players who did get better or weaker in time. It's not fair to state "tie", as if there was no evolution in one player's career.

[BearcatSA]

As much as it is crucially important to get off to a really strong (win/win) start or the second choice start (win/tie)in the first two matches, I'm really interested in seeing how we play in these games. It's the biggest layoff between the next set of fixtures (three months, with a Euro offseason added in, as opposed to the one month between the September/October games with both Euro and MLS in full swing), so if player performances and results are unconvincing in these first two, you wonder how Hart will approach the next two games with his selection and tactics (of course, injuries and other absences may inevitably affect things).

Another thing: I think the worth of being a "players' coach" really comes to the fore when a team is faced with adversity. Supposed players' coaches can also get thrown under the bus pretty quickly by key veteran players when things go badly. I've seen that happen too many times across the spectrum of pro team sports in pressure situations.

[nolando]

Exactly. These comparisons Player "A" vs Player "B" doesn't make any sense. For example, I fail to see the connection between Radzinski and Pacheco. Unless I'm missing something, Radz plays as second striker (or enganche) or central striker while Pacheco plays central midfielder or attacking midfielder. Where is the need to compare the 2 players?

Also, stating: Atiba Hutchinson M FC København Denmark ---- PSV Holland (tie), it doesn't make sense.

There are players who did get better or weaker in time. It's not fair to state "tie", as if there was no evolution in one player's career.

Again , the Radz vs Pacheco comparison came out of needing to match two players. Both play(ed) midfield for Canada.

Hutch 2008 vs Hutch 2012 is an interesting debate. In 2008 he was amongst the best four or five players in all of Denmark and by far his team's best player (Of course, two years later he would be recognised as the best player in the entire Danish Superliga). Although PSV is clearly a much better club than FCK, at Einshoven Hutchinson would be lucky to be considered amongst the top ten players on his side, let alone anything close to league domination. He is regularly played out of his preferred position, as he is not even first choice at either central midfield position. If we consider his role in a Canada shirt four years ago to now, four years ago he was considered to be one of only two truly world class players, extraordinarily impactful. Therefore he was already "the star" in our midfield. He was also much less injury prone than now. Four years later and I don't see any difference in his impact in our side (ie PSV may be twice the club FCK is but Hutch is clearly not twice the player) and I find him much more fragile. For me the tie thus makes complete sense.

[jonovision]

Again , the Radz vs Pacheco comparison came out of needing to match two players. Both play(ed) midfield for Canada.

Hutch 2008 vs Hutch 2012 is an interesting debate. In 2008 he was amongst the best four or five players in all of Denmark and by far his team's best player (Of course, two years later he would be recognised as the best player in the entire Danish Superliga). Although PSV is clearly a much better club than FCK, at Einshoven Hutchinson would be lucky to be considered amongst the top ten players on his side, let alone anything close to league domination. He is regularly played out of his preferred position, as he is not even first choice at either central midfield position. If we consider his role in a Canada shirt four years ago to now, four years ago he was considered to be one of only two truly world class players, extraordinarily impactful. Therefore he was already "the star" in our midfield. He was also much less injury prone than now. Four years later and I don't see any difference in his impact in our side (ie PSV may be twice the club FCK is but Hutch is clearly not twice the player) and I find him much more fragile. For me the tie thus makes complete sense.

Hutchinson's injury prone-ness is an interesting question. As far as I can tell, the only injuries he has suffered in the last two years while he's been with PSV have been while on duty with Canada. Seems little more than a case of bad timing.

[Bertuzzi44]

I agree that the 2008 team was technically stronger. But it woefully underperformed, and as they say, the game is not played on paper.

Hopefully the 2012 team can find the chemistry the 2008 squad never had.