Petition the CSA for a New Voyageurs Cup format competition

[canadianfoot]

I was wondering if there would be a way for us Voyageurs to put some "weight" and petition the CSA to change the format from the current one to say a GROUP one same as when there were only 3teams. It would definitely make the competition more interesting and even if a team lost 2games they could cope maybe better in the other games. At the same time make it way more interesting. As far as Seeding and Scheduling the CSA could use this year ranking as a blueprint for next years competition.

And honestly would 2extra games for each team make such a huge difference to their operations?

Unless you guys prefer to keep the current format?

On the CSA's website there is mention that if a 5th Team (Division 2 level) joins the competition first the 2 NASL(or Div2) teams would have a home/away series to get the 4th berth, as the 3 other spots would be taken by MLS teams.

But wouldn't hurt to try, don't you think guys? And if we get the ball running somehow then the CSA won't be able to say "maybe next year" as we have everything already scheduled for the current format.

Cheers, orletafc

[narduch]

With CONCACAF changing the format of the Champions League (no prelim round and groups of 3 now), there is room for adding games to the Voyageur's Cup.

The MLS clubs would probably like to have 3 guaranteed games on their season ticket packages, so they would probably be for it.

That being said, I prefer the knock out format because its fairer. With a 4-team round robin, you run the risk of the final matchday being controversial like in 2009.

[lattes]

I am on my iPhone or I would do it right now, someone want to start it at www.change.org ? 2 minutes to do

[canadianfoot]

With CONCACAF changing the format of the Champions League (no prelim round and groups of 3 now), there is room for adding games to the Voyageur's Cup.

The MLS clubs would probably like to have 3 guaranteed games on their season ticket packages, so they would probably be for it.

That being said, I prefer the knock out format because its fairer. With a 4-team round robin, you run the risk of the final matchday being controversial like in 2009.

True on the last sentence. But beside that a round robin format is fairere in the case that it gives a team the opportunity to redeem themselves in a certain way if something goes wrong in 2games out of 6........

[ted]

I'd love to sign a petition and try to get changes made but we have not come anywhere close to an agreement on what and expanded tournament would be.

Kinda pointless to start a petition now.

[tmcmurph]

This format does work reasonably well. I'm for staying with it. Less travel this time of year can only help a team in MLS and all 3 Canadian teams in MLS need to do well in that league. Top D2 vs Top D1, 2cd D1 vs 3rd D1. Keep it as it seems to work.

[Lord Bob]

The question is whether we want the Voyageurs Cup to be a serious, legitimate, and exciting competition, or a thing the MLS teams try to get out of the way early so they can focus on Americans.

I say I want a serious Voyageurs Cup, and I want a round robin.

[Free kick]

The question is whether we want the Voyageurs Cup to be a serious, legitimate, and exciting competition, or a thing the MLS teams try to get out of the way early so they can focus on Americans.

I say I want a serious Voyageurs Cup, and I want a round robin.

A serious and true cup competition would use a Cup format. And a cup format is what is used now. A round robin is more akin to league play.

I like league type format as well but with only three or four teams it creates problems. In 2009 some people thought that it was tainted because the Whitecap (who were in contention) didn't get to play in the final game and the cup was decided amongst two team whereby one of the teams was eliminated.

I could say (and still believe) that TFC got somewhat shafted in the inaugural one in 2008. In the head to head matches amongst the two USL sides one side (Montreal) piled up max points and goal diff on the other and that is what ultimately decided the whole competition. As a result Mtl edged out TFC for the cup based on goal diff. Even though Montreal never even managed a win against TFC in their two matches (ie.: TFC managed 4 pts to Mtl's 1 pts in their head to head matches).

Edit.: Oh by the way. i prefer the current format. so i cannot be included in the petition. But my opinion might change if Ottawa joins the competition. I think a five team round robin with games in midweek running from Mid April to mid June, might work.

[Maico]

The question is whether we want the Voyageurs Cup to be a serious, legitimate, and exciting competition, or a thing the MLS teams try to get out of the way early so they can focus on Americans.

I say I want a serious Voyageurs Cup, and I want a round robin.

That will depend on the size of the group, I have no problem with a group stage and then a two legged semi-final/final. Back when we had the round robin, there is an issue of the last game or two being of little importance to at least one team and they end up throwing it. You can do what they have in some round robins where they throw out the results from the last place team and figure out who had the most points against the remaining team.

If we stay at our current format, we should at least have a consolation round to determine seeds for next year. The better you play in the tournament, the better the seeding next year, simple as that. No more higher league / lower league / standings / etc...

[-Hammer-]

The biggest problems with the Canadian Championship is that you are shackled to the MLS schedule for better or worse and it's just too small a tournament. I'd love to see a round robin, but making the tournament 12 games (20 when Ottawa enters NASL and 30 if another team entered) is a big change. The last thing you want is to put teams in a position where they have to choose between a Canadian Championship game and their respective MLS/NASL obligations. It's just such an odd beast to tackle.

[Maico]

The last thing you want is to put teams in a position where they have to choose between a Canadian Championship game and their respective MLS/NASL obligations. It's just such an odd beast to tackle.

I wrote a beast of a message in another thread regarding this and the options we'd have to make if we went full year. We could align the Voyageurs Cup to be in line with the MLS season, but as you mentioned, it would cause huge problems that we don't have the depth for. Imagine late in the season you had a team that was competing for the VCup, playing CCL group stage games, and worrying about league games - all for the chance of one berth and the same issues nextyear?

The only other option I could think of was to run the preliminary rounds one year and the final group stage/elimination rounds the next spring. Whoever was representing Canada for the CCL could get a bye into later rounds, reducing congestion.

Euro clubs can trot out their B teams and some first team players against lower teams because they have that depth, but NA teams would struggle with that.

[Redcoatsforever]

A serious and true cup competition would use a Cup format. And a cup format is what is used now. A round robin is more akin to league play.

Because there's never been a cup in the world to implement both...

Get 6 clubs, that's 4 group stage matches with the winners playing off in a home-and-home for the cup. For now, have two qualifying sub-D2 clubs determined by some kind of preliminary round in the year before. When Ottawa joins, consider expanding to 8 clubs with 6 group matches and a two-legged final.

[Blackdude]

I could say (and still believe) that TFC got somewhat shafted in the inaugural one in 2008. In the head to head matches amongst the two USL sides one side (Montreal) piled up max points and goal diff on the other and that is what ultimately decided the whole competition. As a result Mtl edged out TFC for the cup based on goal diff. Even though Montreal never even managed a win against TFC in their two matches (ie.: TFC managed 4 pts to Mtl's 1 pts in their head to head.

TFC lost it because they couldn't beat the Whitecaps. Had TFC won one game against Vancouver, they would have won the title. If one team got screwed by the old format, it was Vancouver.

[lattes]

I'd love to sign a petition and try to get changes made but we have not come anywhere close to an agreement on what and expanded tournament would be.

Kinda pointless to start a petition now.

Why? This is the perfect time to start a petition.

Another option... A NEW V-cup that is an 'open'

[The Ref]

It is our cup, why do we have to petition anybody!

[Redcoatsforever]

It is our cup, why do we have to petition anybody!

It's the Voyageur's Cup, but it's the CSA's competition. If the CSA don't want to open the competition to other clubs they don't have to. If we don't want them using the V's Cup, they don't have to. Personally, I'd rather the Voyageur's Cup be the trophy hoisted by the national champions, rather than some [insert sponsor name here] trophy.

[BeepBeepImaJeep]

TFC lost it because they couldn't beat the Whitecaps. Had TFC won one game against Vancouver, they would have won the title. If one team got screwed by the old format, it was Vancouver.

Both Toronto and Vancouver got screwed by the old format.

[canadianfoot]

Firstly the petition should be in regards to Next year's competition and in regards to the next few years vision. I realize many people see this tournament with much "Grandeur" but we have to be realistic in regards to what Canada has as soccer infrastructure.

If we look at CSA's website we can see that the CSA(and possibly AMWAY) have already figured out what the tournament will look like when another team at D2 joins the tournament. The 2 Div.2 teams will play a home/away series between themselves to determine the winner that vet's the last berth into the semis.

We should first determine What is the minimum level a team has to represent in order to join the V cup.

[Redcoatsforever]

If we look at CSA's website we can see that the CSA(and possibly AMWAY) have already figured out what the tournament will look like when another team at D2 joins the tournament.

Where on the CSA's website are you looking that you can see that?

[canadianfoot]

Where on the CSA's website are you looking that you can see that?

Look at my quotes in the tread about expanding the tournament is have the link there

[Redcoatsforever]

Look at my quotes in the tread about expanding the tournament is have the link there

If you're referring to the portion of the CSA website that says (3 MLS clubs and 1 NASL club) for 2013, that's because we'll still only have FCE in the NASL next season. Nothing has been declared about when Ottawa joins the competition in 2014.

[Winnipeg Fury]

I think the CSA would also like an expanded tournament and are managing it as well as possible considering limited available time. As more clubs break into the NASL level, the V-Cup will be expanded.

The only thing I would want in a petition, is something pertaining to Canadian content. Did Vancouver start a single Canuck in any of their V-Cup games ?

[Ivan]

^ And an expanded Cup would likely mean more at least one more spot in the Concacaf Champions League.

[canadianfoot]

If you're referring to the portion of the CSA website that says (3 MLS clubs and 1 NASL club) for 2013, that's because we'll still only have FCE in the NASL next season. Nothing has been declared about when Ottawa joins the competition in 2014.

Please read SEEDING THE Teams paragraph below I have posted below. Taken straight from CSA WEBSITE.

[canadianfoot]

Now a Different Source: http://www.canadasoccer.com/the-road-to-and-from-amway-canadian-championship-2012-p150261&t=championship_article

The road to and from Amway Canadian Championship 2012

The Amway Canadian Championship is the Canadian Soccer Association's annual professional club cup competition. The Championship winner is awarded the Voyageurs Cup and is registered as Canada's representative in CONCACAF Champions League, the confederation championship which in turn qualifies one club for the FIFA Club World Cup.

The Championship itself is a knock-out competition, with four teams split into two semi-final series. Each semi-final winner advances to the final series. Every series is played over two matches, with each team hosting one leg at their home venue. The team with the most goals scored after two matches wins the series.

In 2012, Toronto FC will face Impact Montréal in one semi-final series while Vancouver Whitecaps FC will face FC Edmonton in the other semi-final series. Semi-final matches will be played on Wednesday 2 May (in Montréal and Edmonton) and Wednesday 9 May (in Toronto and Vancouver). The two final series matches will be played on Wednesday 16 May and Wednesday 23 May.

TIE-BREAKER RULES

If the two teams score the same number of goals over the two legs, the team which scores more away goals is determined as the winner. If this tie-breaker does not produce a winner, then both teams will play two 15-minute periods of extra time after the second leg. If, during extra time, both teams score the same number of goals, the away goals will count as double in favour of the visiting team. If no goals are scored during extra time, then kicks from the penalty mark (in accordance with FIFA Laws of the Game) will be used to determine the winner.

SEEDING THE TEAMS

At the moment, the four teams participating in the Amway Canadian Championship come from Major League Soccer (first division) and the North American Soccer League (second division). To determine the semi-final match-ups, teams are seeded based on standings in their respective leagues. As such, it will be the 2012 MLS and NASL standings that determine the seeding for the 2013 Amway Canadian Championship (three MLS teams followed by one NASL team). For the 2012 Championship, the seeding was based on the 2011 standings, with Toronto FC first (MLS), Vancouver Whitecaps FC second (MLS), FC Edmonton third (NASL) and Impact Montréal fourth (until last year, NASL).

When more Canadian teams join a second division (ie, NASL), then a Championship Qualifying round will be played to determine the fourth team in the Amway Canadian Championship. The qualified team from second division (NASL) would still be seeded behind the three automatic berths from first division (MLS).

CLUB ROSTERS

Seven days before the Amway Canadian Championship, the clubs must submit their rosters to the Canadian Soccer Association. The roster must feature no more than 30 players. No later than 48 hours (two days) before each match, clubs must submit a list of 23 players from their roster. Sixty-five minutes before kickoff, clubs must submit an 18-player lineup with 11 starters and seven substitutions. A maximum of three of those seven substitute players can be used in the match.

Club rosters will feature a maximum of 30 players. As such, clubs that submit fewer than 30 players at the onset of the competition can then add new players until they have filled their 30 roster spots. A player must appear on the club roster to be eligible to compete in the Amway Canadian Championship. After featuring in a match with one club, a player may not appear for any other club for the duration of that season's Amway Canadian Championship.

CONCACAF CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

CONCACAF Champions League features 24 teams from across the continent, with presently one Canadian team included in the competition. The Amway Canadian Championship is the only qualification route for Canadian professional clubs to enter this competition. As such, a Canadian champion must be declared in advance of the new CONCACAF Champions League season, in accordance with the schedule set forth by CONCACAF. The 2012 Canadian champion will qualify for the 2012-13 CONCACAF Champions League season; the 2012-13 CONCACAF champion will then qualify for the FIFA Club World Cup in 2013.

FIFA CLUB WORLD CUP

The annual FIFA Club World Cup features continental champions from across the world. The tournament features six continental champions plus a club from the host country. If the top team from the host country is the same as the continental champion, then a continental runner-up will be selected to ensure that no country is represented more than once in the competition. The first match of the competition will then feature the host country club against the OFC (Oceannia) champion. The winner of that match as well as continental champions from CONCACAF, CAF (Africa) and AFC (Asia) will face each other in the next round (single-match elimination), with the match-ups determined by a draw. Two winners will then advance to the semi-final phase to face the continental winners from CONMEBOL (South America) and UEFA (Europe), with again the match-ups pre-determined by a draw. The two semi-final winners then advance to the championship final.