Petition the CSA for a New Voyageurs Cup format competition

[canadianfoot]

^ And an expanded Cup would likely mean more at least one more spot in the Concacaf Champions League.

As long as Canadian clubs can backup their demands for another spot with results then we have a shot. Otherwise we will have only 1.

[Jcm144]

Even with an expansion in the champions league, I personally dont see Canadian clubs getting an extra spot for quite a few years.....of course depending on results and new clubs in Canada

[Redcoatsforever]

Please read SEEDING THE Teams paragraph below I have posted below. Taken straight from CSA WEBSITE.

I read it on the damn website. The point is that they're talking about how 2012 and 2013 will be seeded. In those tournaments there will be 3 MLS clubs and one NASL club BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONLY PRO TEAMS IN THE COUNTRY. There won't be more than one NASL club in Canada until 2014.

[coppercanuck]

For me, I want the Voyageurs Cup to put Canadian players on the field in pressure situations. This may help improve the depth of talent and give younger players a measuring stick against the pro clubs. Looking at the US Open Cup as a comparison (which can be dangerous), all 16 MLS teams got in this year and with 2 games in the round remaining, there have been 6 upsets. I'm guessing in each of those local markets it is making big news. This will really help grow the game, the pro game. Potential owners may see that and jump on it. The V-Cup can add a round pretty easily. Top 4 other teams becomes the challenge.

[Free kick]

I'm guessing in each of those local markets it is making big news. This will really help grow the game, the pro game. .

The US open cup has a very very sparse following. And, if i were to judge by the news content out there, it doesn't appear like anybody cares. So i would say that this counters your argument. our competition, has more intense rivalries, is televised, get more media coverage, draws far more paying spectators etc etc. This is the strongest case that you could make for not adding anymore teams, especially from divsions lower than the NASL/USL.

[Marc]

The US open cup has a very very sparse following. And, if i were to judge by the news content out there, it doesn't appear like anybody cares. So i would say that this counters your argument. our competition, has more intense rivalries, is televised, get more media coverage, draws far more paying spectators etc etc. This is the strongest case that you could make for not adding anymore teams, especially from divsions lower than the NASL/USL.

Agreed agreed agreed. As much as I would prefer a competition that included more minnows because it suits my interests, the idea that this will be a surefire draw is a huge assumption - particularly for semi-pro teams with very sparse followings and shakey finances. Let the competition develop some more history and see what teams join NASL or USL pro before expanding.

[Redcoatsforever]

The US open cup has a very very sparse following. And, if i were to judge by the news content out there, it doesn't appear like anybody cares. So i would say that this counters your argument. our competition, has more intense rivalries, is televised, get more media coverage, draws far more paying spectators etc etc. This is the strongest case that you could make for not adding anymore teams, especially from divsions lower than the NASL/USL.

So there weren't 8,000 people at the Railhawks Galaxy match? Could've fooled me.

[DJT]

I read it on the damn website. The point is that they're talking about how 2012 and 2013 will be seeded. In those tournaments there will be 3 MLS clubs and one NASL club BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONLY PRO TEAMS IN THE COUNTRY. There won't be more than one NASL club in Canada until 2014.

I think you missed this:

When more Canadian teams join a second division (ie, NASL), then a Championship Qualifying round will be played to determine the fourth team in the Amway Canadian Championship. The qualified team from second division (NASL) would still be seeded behind the three automatic berths from first division (MLS).

(From www.canadasoccer.com/the-road-to-and-from-amway-canadian-championship-2012-p150261&t=championship_article.)

[Redcoatsforever]

Well, that's really lame. Apologies to Free Kick.

[coppercanuck]

I can see that, Free kick. The consideration in the USA is that the Cup on advances one of the 4 while our Cup advances our only team. the focus has to be on our Cup. Consider Canada with 2 spots; same Cup final VAN v TOR; VAN might know they have a second chance by being the top Canadian MLS team. I digress. I agree that this has to grow slowly, the same as other Cups. Adding one extra full round might be the carrot for some teams to become more professional. Will the CSL, LPSQ always be in that grey area of "semi-pro"? Do we know what the financial gain is for any team in the V-Cup?

[coppercanuck]

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/mls/story/?id=397327

Boy, these stories are fun.

[canadianfoot]

Ok I am back from my "short" vacation and want to jump into the tread again. So now that we know where the CSA stands once a 5th Team joins the competition.

SEEDING THE TEAMS

At the moment, the four teams participating in the Amway Canadian Championship come from Major League Soccer (first division) and the North American Soccer League (second division). To determine the semi-final match-ups, teams are seeded based on standings in their respective leagues. As such, it will be the 2012 MLS and NASL standings that determine the seeding for the 2013 Amway Canadian Championship (three MLS teams followed by one NASL team). For the 2012 Championship, the seeding was based on the 2011 standings, with Toronto FC first (MLS), Vancouver Whitecaps FC second (MLS), FC Edmonton third (NASL) and Impact Montréal fourth (until last year, NASL).

When more Canadian teams join a second division (ie, NASL), then a Championship Qualifying round will be played to determine the fourth team in the Amway Canadian Championship. The qualified team from second division (NASL) would still be seeded behind the three automatic berths from first division (MLS).

http://www.canadasoccer.com/the-road-to-and-from-amway-canadian-championship-2012-p150261&t=championship_article

Where do WE the Voyageurs stand?

Do we like the idea of once a 5th team(eg. Ottawa) joins the competition they will play a home/away knockoff vs. FC Edmonton.

or

Do we ask the CSA for a ROUND ROBIN Format Regardless whenever it is 4 or 5 teams (Div.2 and Higher) that participate?

We might also want to look into "what if" a 6th team D2 or higher shows ups......but that might be hard as NASL needs to meet certain requirement from the USSF and adding a 3rd Canadian based team might not be appealing at this point and time. But for the time being we need to answer the 2questions I have posted above.

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I vote for ROUND ROBIN Tournament Regardless whenever 4 or 5 participants.

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And for Sponsorship reasons($$$ attendance and marketing) keep it to D2 and UP for the time being until we have a few more USL Pro and Higher teams in Canada. And yes I realise that USL Pro is in fact D3 NOT D2 standard. But once we have 3MLS, 2NASL and maybe 3-4 USL Pro teams then we can think of Expanding the V' Cup into a full blown competition.

[coppercanuck]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17459332

I stumbled across this last night and it got me wondering about the parallels (CAN-USA, WAL-ENG, NZL-AUS). I wonder if the CSA/CONCACAF would ever consider this type of situation. I'm not sure this system puts the best Welsh club in the European competitions but its a choice they made with going into the English system. Similarly the Wellington Phoenix are on the outs because the play in the Australian A-League. Double wammy with the OFC-AFC boarder.

[Prof]

8 teams round robin format. 3 MLS teams, 1 NASL team, PCSL Champion, CSL Champion, PDL Champion if Canadian or highest ranked and top amateur team. Rank appropriately, Pro teams do the traveling in round 1. Win and you go on, lose and your out. Final made up of home and away games. Maximum games to win it all is only 4 games. Less total games, less travel, more teams involved.

[Alex D]

8 teams round robin format. 3 MLS teams, 1 NASL team, PCSL Champion, CSL Champion, PDL Champion if Canadian or highest ranked and top amateur team. Rank appropriately, Pro teams do the traveling in round 1. Win and you go on, lose and your out. Final made up of home and away games. Maximum games to win it all is only 4 games. Less total games, less travel, more teams involved.

I like this format but you've only listed 7 teams. I'd add the Quebec league champs, then when Ottawa comes on board have the PCSL and PDL team play in.

[RJB]

As long as Canadian clubs can backup their demands for another spot with results then we have a shot. Otherwise we will have only 1.

People... we don't have a domestic league and so are lucky to have one Champions League spot. Looking for two at this point is pure greed.

Now, to contradict myself, having a round robin Voyageurs Cup is in fact a domestic league format. Albeit a small one, it is the perfect format to determine the best team in the nation, regardless of what happens in the final game.

Whatever happens to the cup, having only four professional clubs means we remain lucky to have one spot in the CCL. Having a few more still means we should only have one club in the competition.

[RJB]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17459332

I stumbled across this last night and it got me wondering about the parallels (CAN-USA, WAL-ENG, NZL-AUS). I wonder if the CSA/CONCACAF would ever consider this type of situation. I'm not sure this system puts the best Welsh club in the European competitions but its a choice they made with going into the English system. Similarly the Wellington Phoenix are on the outs because the play in the Australian A-League. Double wammy with the OFC-AFC boarder.

Canadian teams should qualify for the Champions League through the league system. And that is MLS. As much as I love the Voyageurs Cup, it is lame that the three MLS clubs cannot qualify through the Champions League through their league.

Swansea and Cardiff represent a good precedent for this.

[Lord Bob]

Canadian teams should qualify for the Champions League through the league system. And that is MLS.

We shouldn't prohibit 25% (today) - 50% (once Ottawa and Hamilton join the NASL) of Canada's professional teams from ever getting a Champions League spot.

[RJB]

We shouldn't prohibit 25% (today) - 50% (once Ottawa and Hamilton join the NASL) of Canada's professional teams from ever getting a Champions League spot.

Well, if they aren't in the top division, then they don't deserve to come near the title of Canadian Champion let alone represent us in the Champions League.

[jpg75]

Well, if they aren't in the top division, then they don't deserve to come near the title of Canadian Champion let alone represent us in the Champions League.

How dare they try to earn something through competition.

[Lord Bob]

Well, if they aren't in the top division, then they don't deserve to come near the title of Canadian Champion let alone represent us in the Champions League.

There is no promotion/relegation. Both these leagues are fully professional. Being in "the top division" does not prove you are better than the teams in the lower divisions unless you play them. This isn't England.

[Raven]

Well, if they aren't in the top division, then they don't deserve to come near the title of Canadian Champion let alone represent us in the Champions League.

Montreal 2008.

[canadianfoot]

unfortunately the CSA has already cut the discussion short. MLS get 3/4 spots and D2(read NASL) get the last spot.....FC Edmonton, Ottawa.....and Hamilton(when they come) will have to play it out between themselves. Unfortunate I must say since if only Ottawa joins in at this time them that is only 2extra games for Each team. Would be a little different if we had say 3MLS and 3NASL teams them we could simply have 2x3teams with the winner of each group playing a home/away against the winner of the other group.

[RJB]

There is no promotion/relegation. Both these leagues are fully professional. Being in "the top division" does not prove you are better than the teams in the lower divisions unless you play them. This isn't England.

But it is the system that we have. It is unanimous that MLS is the top division, and therefore better than the second division. With all due respect to Edmonton, them beating TFC, Vancouver, or Montreal once in a cup contest doesn't make them better, and would not make them worthy Champions. Doing so in a league would however. Discussions of NASL being comparable to MLS ended a long time ago.

[Lord Bob]

But it is the system that we have. It is unanimous that MLS is the top division, and therefore better than the second division. With all due respect to Edmonton, them beating TFC, Vancouver, or Montreal once in a cup contest doesn't make them better, and would not make them worthy Champions. Doing so in a league would however. Discussions of NASL being comparable to MLS ended a long time ago.

So MLS is always better because it's the first division, and it's the first division because it's always better. Got it.