TFC vs DC August 6th, 2011

[Canuck Oranje]

For what it's worth, I really see TFC moving in the right direction. Players like Iro and Harden are temporary and are more or less forced on the team because of a limited number of roster spaces and salary caps.

As Rudi points out and I agree, the young academy players are developing nicely. But you don't throw a young defender into situations that could damage his confidence. If you look at any of the top development clubs around the world, they manage the development process carefully. And MLS doesn't have the same capability to loan out young defenders like the big European or South American clubs can do.

Henry is a high quality young defender and I am certain that Winter and DeKlerk know that and being careful with his development. Morgan and Stinson are also developing nicely but a step or two behind Henry right now.

As for Winter as a coach, I suspect his biggest challenge has been to learn how to deal with a limited roster and tight salary cap. The other is coming to grips with just how technically weak some MLS players are. At the same time, there is no way that anyone in North America can claim they know better than Winter and DeKlerk how to develop young players. There may be some who are equally capable but none who are better. The fact that Winter and DeKlerk were working in the development system at Ajax as long as they were would suggest that management there agree. The fact that Klinsman made the recommendation would suggest he felt that way too.

With the young players soon to take over, Iro and Harden will likely be gone next year.

[loyola]

I thought DeRo was a bit lucky on goal 1 and 2. The first one is a keeper mistake but good thing happened when you shoot on target. Second is a total gift from Iro, good for DeRo that he finished that.

BTW, I presently only watch TFC and have stopped following Vancouver because of the numbers of Canadians involved. I thought it was nice to see Dunfield, Henry, Morgan, Stinson and JDG playing against DC. Specially the younger ones who are being given some PT lately, nice to see.

[James]

Oh hi. I love it when you quote my entire post but only respond to one small part of it.

I'm deadly serious about DeRo's game last night. Unless you think that a routine ball going through Iro's legs and falling to a wide open DeRo was some sort of divine skill on DeRo's part, then yes, he was very lucky.

The first goal was superb skill, but he was handed the second and third. Again, full credit to him for opportunistically putting the latter two away, but let's not act like he created those goals. They were as much due to Iro as they were to DeRo.

I get it James. You're not going to be satisfied until every single TFC player is Canadian, no matter what. Toronto is actually giving Canadian kids a good look and some of them are succeeding. Of the five Canadians that saw the pitch for TFC against DC, three were 20 years old or younger. Two of those youngsters started on the backline.

That's where your hyerbole fails. Outside of Iro, who else that started for TFC last night -- and wan't Canadian -- had such a terrible game that a "beer league player" from the Toronto area could start ahead of him? Frei? Frings? Koevermans? Plata? Avila? Johnson?

The backline is admittedly still a mess, but it's already 50% Canadian now. And if you haven't noticed, the attack has gotten much, much better since the roster overhaul. They're far from being a "good" MLS team, but it's hardly the collection of bums that wore the shirt for the first half of the season.

And if you'll recall, that collection of bums still strolled over Canadian-heavy Edmonton without breaking a sweat. The current team would romp FCE, which speaks to the unfortunately shallow nature of the Canadian player pool at the moment.

He got a hat trick for a ten man side, including the tying goal with only minutes remaining. He has scored DC's last 6 goals. I'm not sure downplaying his accomplishments by calling it "lucky" makes much sense. He was the best player on the pitch, no question. Better than any DP on the field, thats for sure.

Yeah, I'm glad, they're playing some Canadians over there. And young ones too. Thats great. History tells us that they better not ever expect to get paid though. They'll be on the bench and out the door. Morgan is a gem. Love that kid. Stinson too, I hope they get the chance to prosper.

The backline? hmmm... Hardin, Iro, Ekersley... Horrid. Henry, overrated. You've given up a ton of goals this season. I don't know what the record is but TFC must be closing in on it.

I'd agree they look better than they did earlier in the season but not by much. They should have paid DDR. Is there a better player in the MLS over the past 4 or 5 years? He doesn't look like he's slowing down either. I wouldn't doubt that he's got another 4 or 5 good years in him. He's a fitness nut and has too many tools in his arsenal to not expect him to evolve as he ages.

Comparing FCE and TFC is funny. Geez, we haven't even played a full season of tier 2 soccer... You've had 5 in the top League. Give it a couple more years and we can talk. If TFC continue as they have for the past 5, that gap will be pretty small. As a Canadian fan, I'm be prouder of FCE than TFC or Vancouver. They just happen to be my hometown team too. I'm the lucky guy.

[James]

For what it's worth, I really see TFC moving in the right direction. Players like Iro and Harden are temporary and are more or less forced on the team because of a limited number of roster spaces and salary caps.

As Rudi points out and I agree, the young academy players are developing nicely. But you don't throw a young defender into situations that could damage his confidence. If you look at any of the top development clubs around the world, they manage the development process carefully. And MLS doesn't have the same capability to loan out young defenders like the big European or South American clubs can do.

Henry is a high quality young defender and I am certain that Winter and DeKlerk know that and being careful with his development. Morgan and Stinson are also developing nicely but a step or two behind Henry right now.

As for Winter as a coach, I suspect his biggest challenge has been to learn how to deal with a limited roster and tight salary cap. The other is coming to grips with just how technically weak some MLS players are. At the same time, there is no way that anyone in North America can claim they know better than Winter and DeKlerk how to develop young players. There may be some who are equally capable but none who are better. The fact that Winter and DeKlerk were working in the development system at Ajax as long as they were would suggest that management there agree. The fact that Klinsman made the recommendation would suggest he felt that way too.

With the young players soon to take over, Iro and Harden will likely be gone next year.

I hope you're right and they don't just continue to bring in 3rd tier journeymen from europe and american rejects. I'd love to see Morgan and Stinson as featured players in the side but after how they managed Nana, I dunno. I'm skeptical.

[Macksam]

I hope you're right and they don't just continue to bring in 3rd tier journeymen from europe and american rejects. I'd love to see Morgan and Stinson as featured players in the side but after how they managed Nana, I dunno. I'm skeptical.

Because of what happened to one guy, you think every player coming up in the future is going to get treated badly? Also, history tells us they should not expect to get paid? If this was a constant theme, maybe. However, one guy? Come on man, just stop.

[AvroArrow]

Didn't TFC rip up Dero's old contract and give him a new (and improved) one when he first arrived in Toronto? I can understand TFC's hesitation to then throw that one out because Dero was now unhappy with his improved deal. How many times was TFC expected to renegotiate with Dero? If he wanted increased of flexibility with his contracts, sign 1 year deals. Of course, that would have meant that a lot of the risk would have been transfered to Dero.

Love the player and TFC misses him, but the guy needs to give his head a shake.

[RS]

Didn't TFC rip up Dero's old contract and give him a new (and improved) one when he first arrived in Toronto?

Yes, they did. DeRo got a $100,000+ per year raise from TFC in a four-year deal that he's still under contract for until the end of '12. At the time, DeRo was entering the third year of a four year deal that he had signed with Houston.

That, plus TFC giving JDG one of the richest contracts a Canadian soccer player has ever received makes James' argument that TFC underpays Canadians laughable.

(And James, I brought up FCE because you held them up in another thread as some kind of shining light that TFC should aspire to be. I love what they're doing on the out in Edmonton, but your position that FCE are full of Canadians out of some sort of sense of patriotic duty is completely naive.)

[Free kick]

I love what they're doing on the out in Edmonton, but your position that FCE are full of Canadians out of some sort of sense of patriotic duty is completely naive.)

Yes and (although i hate to bring it up) they are right now on a five game losing streak. Fortunately for the hot start, they dont really look in danger of missing the playoffs because only two of eight teams miss the playoffs in the league and there is Atlanta (who is plain awfull) and montreal (who are going through the motions looking to next season in the MLS). With a game in hand, ft Lauderdale could over take FCE. Leaving FCE in sixth.

All this proves that there HAS to be balancing act when it comes to winning and building a competitive team versus going all canadian with roster selections. Nobody wants to see a team with no canadians. But to develop properly, canadians need to be challenged and quality foreigners can do that for a team. I'd be just as happy seeing FCE with a roster of 50-60 percent canadian and producing quality professionals and players for NT pools. Obviously we are no brazil & argentina and Canadian quality is not going to be produced in huge abundance all at once but gradually and slowly. Better to have few good ones than a bunch of mediocres ones.

PS?: i am not suggesting that the talent at FCE is mediocre. In fact its looks like there might be players ready for the next steps. But you certainly run the risk in he long term of developing alot of mediocrity if you dont broaden your horizons.

[Gian-Luca]

BTW, I presently only watch TFC and have stopped following Vancouver because of the numbers of Canadians involved. I thought it was nice to see Dunfield, Henry, Morgan, Stinson and JDG playing against DC. Specially the younger ones who are being given some PT lately, nice to see.

I'm in the same boat re: Vancouver - without any Canadians even being dressed nowadays they are just another MLS team for me. I don't get all the angst aimed at TFC this season regarding playing Canucks - they have two out with season-ending injuries and they've traded two Canucks away - and yet despite they still are usually playing 2-3 Canucks every night (sometimes more, sometimes less). There have been past seasons where it has been fair to grill the team and management over the Canadian player issue, but I'm failing to see the basis for it for this season.

[jloome]

He got a hat trick for a ten man side, including the tying goal with only minutes remaining. He has scored DC's last 6 goals.

Again, that wasn't his point and you're not answering his question. When someone so thoroughly schools you in a debate (and that was a thorough and logical schooling, which happens to all of us sometimes) the graceful thing to do is show an ounce of humility and concede the points. Instead, you just changed the points.

I recommend this site. www.skepdics.com The section on logical fallacies, if not instructive, might at least inject a dose of that humility.

[Ivan]

I'm in the same boat re: Vancouver - without any Canadians even being dressed nowadays they are just another MLS team for me. I don't get all the angst aimed at TFC this season regarding playing Canucks - they have two out with season-ending injuries and they've traded two Canucks away - and yet despite they still are usually playing 2-3 Canucks every night (sometimes more, sometimes less). There have been past seasons where it has been fair to grill the team and management over the Canadian player issue, but I'm failing to see the basis for it for this season.

Not to mention another bunch of Academy players and recent grads - Kelsey, Pasher (another very impressive player I saw in CSL), Cordon, Camargo, Makubuya, Vukovic) - all played in the reserve game vs. DC United. DC won 2-1 with Vukovic scoring.

[James]

Again, that wasn't his point and you're not answering his question. When someone so thoroughly schools you in a debate (and that was a thorough and logical schooling, which happens to all of us sometimes) the graceful thing to do is show an ounce of humility and concede the points. Instead, you just changed the points.

I recommend this site. www.skepdics.com The section on logical fallacies, if not instructive, might at least inject a dose of that humility.

Whats to debate? To suggest anything other than DeRosario being the best player on the pitch is silly. To say it's to luck? 3 goals? The first was a typical DeRo Rocket... Blame the keeper if you want but it was a sick hit. I'm not sure if many keepers could have gotten onto it. The second, Iro's fault bigtime but DDR still outworked Frings to the ball, patiently dribbled around Frei and buried it. A nice goal. The third, a perfectly placed penalty(well deserved) to salvage a point in the dying moments of the game. Not to mention, Derosario's contributions throughout the game. The fact is, with a little "luck", it coulda easily been 2 or three more. Trying to downplay his impact on the field, to suggest he was just very "lucky"... leaves nothing to debate. What question did Rudi ask? Which players could you replace at TFC from the local beer leagues? Do we even need to answer that? Maybe you should ask Frings his thoughts on the matter, I'm sure he could handpick a few... The same names keep coming up and it really isn't worth a debate.

[tmcmurph]

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity. Old saying I've always liked.

Dero is a finisher. Given any chance he will burn you more often than not. Capitalizing on the other team's mistakes is what he does as good as any in MLS.

[James]

Yes and (although i hate to bring it up) they are right now on a five game losing streak. Fortunately for the hot start, they dont really look in danger of missing the playoffs because only two of eight teams miss the playoffs in the league and there is Atlanta (who is plain awfull) and montreal (who are going through the motions looking to next season in the MLS). With a game in hand, ft Lauderdale could over take FCE. Leaving FCE in sixth.

All this proves that there HAS to be balancing act when it comes to winning and building a competitive team versus going all canadian with roster selections. Nobody wants to see a team with no canadians. But to develop properly, canadians need to be challenged and quality foreigners can do that for a team. I'd be just as happy seeing FCE with a roster of 50-60 percent canadian and producing quality professionals and players for NT pools. Obviously we are no brazil & argentina and Canadian quality is not going to be produced in huge abundance all at once but gradually and slowly. Better to have few good ones than a bunch of mediocres ones.

PS?: i am not suggesting that the talent at FCE is mediocre. In fact its looks like there might be players ready for the next steps. But you certainly run the risk in he long term of developing alot of mediocrity if you dont broaden your horizons.

The 5 game skid has been rough. They still have flashes gut haven't been able to put it together. They've been starting games in neutral. They need to pick it up. There are a few holes out there too. A proper target man could help and the lapses in the back cost us regularly. Hamilton is still a stud though and Rago too is playing well. At the start of this season, I was hoping top 6 but we started so strongly, it was easy to get caught up in it. I still say we can take Carolina and anyone else but we're young and these things don't happen over night, do they? A Canadian roster should be a priority though. To play journeymen in roles that a Canadian could fill and learn from the experience isn't right. I'm with you, 50-60% Canadian would be great but Vancouver is now what? 0%... TFC? 15-20% ? Not good enough for the results they are getting. And it IS a disgrace.

[RS]

What question did Rudi ask? Which players could you replace at TFC from the local beer leagues? Do we even need to answer that? Maybe you should ask Frings his thoughts on the matter, I'm sure he could handpick a few... The same names keep coming up and it really isn't worth a debate.

This is getting ridiculous. Yes, you do need to answer that, because it's an issue you've been dancing around for weeks.

In one post you suggest that local beer league players can do better than some of TFC's players, yet in another post you call Doneil Henry -- one of the most highly-touted CANADIAN defenders in his age group -- overrated. Which is it?

If Henry is finding it tough to step up to the MLS level, what the hell leads you to believe that Joe Schmo who plays once a week in the TSSL with his buddies is going to do much better?

[afun]

I'm in the same boat re: Vancouver - without any Canadians even being dressed nowadays they are just another MLS team for me. I don't get all the angst aimed at TFC this season regarding playing Canucks - they have two out with season-ending injuries and they've traded two Canucks away - and yet despite they still are usually playing 2-3 Canucks every night (sometimes more, sometimes less). There have been past seasons where it has been fair to grill the team and management over the Canadian player issue, but I'm failing to see the basis for it for this season.

That was a very entertaining game and I was also very happy to see a relatively large contingent of Canadians playing pivotal roles for each team. I find I primarily cheer for the Canadian players on the field. However, the Whitecaps game was also very entertaining which makes it easier to cheer for them even if there's no Canadians playing. A successful Vancouver club even with no Canadians will in some indirect way help the Nats down the road more so than a piss-poor club with no Canadians on it.

The soccer momentum in Canada just has to keep rolling...

[James]

This is getting ridiculous. Yes, you do need to answer that, because it's an issue you've been dancing around for weeks.

In one post you suggest that local beer league players can do better than some of TFC's players, yet in another post you call Doneil Henry -- one of the most highly-touted CANADIAN defenders in his age group -- overrated. Which is it?

If Henry is finding it tough to step up to the MLS level, what the hell leads you to believe that Joe Schmo who plays once a week in the TSSL with his buddies is going to do much better?

Crap. I meant Ekersley not Henry. And yeah, Ekersley is crap. So is Hardin and Iro. And yeah, for sure, Ill say that you might actually be able to find players playing in and around Toronto who could do as good a job and likely better. Never mind players in the CSL, NASL and CIS. I don't think I've skirted around anything for weeks. I've said these guys didn't belong playing professional soccer in other posts. Ekersley is still young, maybe he can become something some day but he's not the player Attakora is or will be an if you're gonna spend the time developing a player, I'd rather it be a Canadian kid. Those are just three of the guys TFC is playing game after game. I hope you've seen the last of Iro, but who knows how many kicks at the can he gets. They'll just replace him with Hardin anyway, so your screwed either way. I'll take Joe Schmo any day of the week. You do watch the games right? We're talking about the same Iro, Hardin and Ekersley? At least Peterson and Gargan are finally gone. I know a lot of you love this Ekersley kid but damn, I just don't see it. He's just another weak link and he's the one I meant to say as overrated. I'd rather have Nana.

Does anyone know what the MLS record is for goals allowed in a season? Is it in danger?

[loyola]

Calling Ekersley crap make you lose a lot of credibility...Ek is a good defender and can be pretty good offensively as well (which Nana isn't good at) so objectively I would rate Ek ahead of Nana at RB.

[James]

Calling Ekersley crap make you lose a lot of credibility...Ek is a good defender and can be pretty good offensively as well (which Nana isn't good at) so objectively I would rate Ek ahead of Nana at RB.

I know, like I said, I realize a lot of you guys like him but I really don't see it. Maybe it's wrong to lump him in with Hardin, Gargan, Iro and Peterson but I don't think he's worth the rave reviews he tends to get. He might turn into something sometime but I don't think he should be a starter in the MLS but then again, who on that backline should be right now? And I'd take Nana over him, anytime.

[Gordon]

Again, that wasn't his point and you're not answering his question. When someone so thoroughly schools you in a debate (and that was a thorough and logical schooling, which happens to all of us sometimes) the graceful thing to do is show an ounce of humility and concede the points. Instead, you just changed the points.

I recommend this site. www.skepdics.com The section on logical fallacies, if not instructive, might at least inject a dose of that humility.

Seriously? You got some sort of feud with James going? Nobody has schooled anyone as far as I can see. They have both engaged in over the top hyperbole and they have both made some decent points.

[Keegan]

I know, like I said, I realize a lot of you guys like him but I really don't see it. Maybe it's wrong to lump him in with Hardin, Gargan, Iro and Peterson but I don't think he's worth the rave reviews he tends to get. He might turn into something sometime but I don't think he should be a starter in the MLS but then again, who on that backline should be right now? And I'd take Nana over him, anytime.

Eckersley is a good defender on TFC, an average MLS defender.. he has poor technique and weak crossing ability but he works hard, wins physical battles and as I said he's a lot better than most of our defenders so that wins him points with TFC supporters. He looked upset to be subbed off in the last match, as he should have been. I can't see him staying any longer than this season so we shouldn't be worried either way really.

[Keegan]

Calling Ekersley crap make you lose a lot of credibility...Ek is a good defender and can be pretty good offensively as well (which Nana isn't good at) so objectively I would rate Ek ahead of Nana at RB.

Watch how you say that, I know what you mean by saying Eckersley is better offensively as in dribbling and passing but Nana was TFC's most threatening player off set pieces during his stint here and that has to count for something.

[Free kick]

Eckersley is a good defender on TFC, an average MLS defender.. he has poor technique and weak crossing ability but he works hard, wins physical battles and as I said he's a lot better than most of our defenders so that wins him points with TFC supporters. He looked upset to be subbed off in the last match, as he should have been. I can't see him staying any longer than this season so we shouldn't be worried either way really.

But he has been terrific. Up until the trade flurry a couple of weeks ago, he was one three candidates for team MVP along with Frey and Gordon. Maybe we are biased in regards to his defensive skills compared to the rest of the league, and we all know he doesnt belong in central defense, but in Winter's scheme he is a very valuable component because he has the great ability to push forward as a half back. Has great pace and is strong on the ball and these are things missing since Marvelle Wynne left. Defensively, he is definitely is better than Wynne defensively IMO. The real problems have been central defense.

Also, people are comparing Eckersley to Nana but why? They dont play the same position and their roles are different. Nana is central defender whereas Eckersley is a half back so he is expected to have more freedom, run a lot more and cover more pitch area. He was not loaned to TFC to be a CB. Nana may have played one or two games as a half back (i seem to recall he may have been subbed in on the U 20 as a half back) in his career but he was a central defender almost exclusively going even back as U 17 player on the national team.

[Cheeta]

I know, like I said, I realize a lot of you guys like him but I really don't see it. Maybe it's wrong to lump him in with Hardin, Gargan, Iro and Peterson but I don't think he's worth the rave reviews he tends to get. He might turn into something sometime but I don't think he should be a starter in the MLS but then again, who on that backline should be right now? And I'd take Nana over him, anytime.

Really comes down to what you're looking for.

Wasn't too impressed with Ekersley at first but have been quietly coming around on the man. Think that's partly down to him settling in and partly down to the other changes in the team.

Decent player with a bit of a mind going forward. No, not perfection by any stretch but more than useful in his role. Don't think it's fair to compare him to Nana. Apples and oranges to my mind. Not really bringing the same skill set are they?

[loyola]

Really comes down to what you're looking for.

Wasn't too impressed with Ekersley at first but have been quietly coming around on the man. Think that's partly down to him settling in and partly down to the other changes in the team.

Decent player with a bit of a mind going forward. No, not perfection by any stretch but more than useful in his role. Don't think it's fair to compare him to Nana. Apples and oranges to my mind. Not really bringing the same skill set are they?

Nana has played at full back before so that's why I went with the comparaison but I'm not even sure why Nana was brought in the discussion as he clearly is a central defender, something Eckersley isn't.

I haven't followed him too much but what's Nana situation with SJ. Is he a starter?