CSA vice-president criticizes MLS over new domestic content regulations

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Meanwhile removed from all the posturing over roster quotas TFC are planning to build a new $15 million training facility that will be used to train future TFC and by extension CMNT players. Paul Beirne and others visited the training facilities of Club America and Pachuca during TFC's recent trip to Mexico to play Cruz Azul in the CCL and were particularly impressed by Pachuca's state of the art facility. Based on what was said during a recent It's Called Football podcast interview the plan appears to be to create a similar setup in the GTA. Great news for the future of Canadian soccer but bad news for the apparatchiks at the Soccer Centre in Vaughn because the Ontario provincial program will lose much of its relevance. Victor Montagliani appears to be angling for their support in the next CSA presidential election by wrapping himself in the flag in a very disingenuous manner.

[TFCRegina]

* Straw man alert! *

None, because Vancouver keeps their players.

Like Marcus Haber?

[RS]

2 in Bundesliga 2

0 in MLS

oh but wait, EIGHT in USSFD2

wait for next year...

It's also worth noting that the 'Caps have played without a Canadian quota for years in d2, and yet have been more canadian than TFC year after year...

We get it. Your employer is awesome.

Yet for all of your hyperbole we have to put up with in every thread, your facts are rarely correct. You claim that the Caps are more Canadian than TFC year after year, and yet TFC played the same total number of Canadians (or more) as the 'Caps in the head-to-head matches from each of the past two Canadian Championship tournaments (you know, that competition where Vancouver's 2 wins in 6 matches means the 'Caps are "consistently" winning according to you?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Canadian_Championship

Number of Canadians used in head-to-head matches: Toronto 10, Vancouver 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Canadian_Championship

Number of Canadians used in head-to-head matches: Toronto 10, Vancouver 9

Go ahead, count it up for yourself. Or don't, as it wouldn't fit into your "LoLZ Whitecaps r 733t y0" M.O. on this board.

[Gordon]

Funny, I was going to post something along the lines of... "Didn't Gordon predict this five years ago?" ...but maybe it was DoyleG.

I don't understand the response about the academies. If there is no requirement to play Canadians at the first team level, then it's all moot - they can graduate Uruguayans and Jamaicans alongside Canadians and it won't matter a lick. We can only cross our fingers that they develop local talent that actually ends up playing for us.

Is it the CSA's job to do something about this? Yes. Are they in any position to do so? Of course not. Let's stop pointing the finger at the CSA and pretending that they actually have a sound-enough footing to over-rule this decision. What are they going to do, suspend their licenses? Yes clubs have to look out for their best interests but this is a betrayal of trust on their part. There are some very suspect posts here attempting to shift and disperse the blame for a terrible decision simply because the posters know that their clubs may benefit from this on the field.

I never truly thought they'd pull this on us. Without the reciprocal treatment of Canadians on American teams this is terrible.

Nah, I argued against DoyleG's assertion. Even posted a document from a Toronto law firm that seemed to suggest it was illegal. While I certainly argued, until I was blue in the face, that the USSF and MLS were no friends of Canadian soccer, I had no idea that they would be allowed to so completely pillage the country.

Appalled at the various rationalizations of so-called Canadian soccer fans. Suspect they might get it if it was their profession that was thrown wide-open to american competition for jobs that was not reciprocrated down south. Complete and utter joke. Done with 36 years of suppporting various incarnations of the Whitecaps, and done with this thread.

[narduch]

Appalled at the various rationalizations of so-called Canadian soccer fans. Suspect they might get it if it was their profession that was thrown wide-open to american competition for jobs that was not reciprocrated down south. Complete and utter joke.

I agree 100%.

People have swallowed the Mo Johnston kool-aid so hard that they think a rule this stupid is required.

But lets forget that TFC has had countless garbage Americans and internationals as well. It wasn't the Canadian content that was making TFC less competitive. It was the moron running the club.

As for the Whitecaps, they are just being lazy and taking advantage of the situation.

The CSA better continue to press this issue.

Or at the very least make their own rule that supersedes any USSF rule. They have the power to do it.

[jpg75]

All clubs seem to be committed to developing local talent. I don't think any of the three clubs are going to take developing local players any less seriously now. It would be bad business otherwise for a couple reasons:

1) Marketing: Canadian players will make the fans feel more attached to local players. This isn't the EPL, if there wasn't some vested Canadian interest, people will just turn away and watch the European stuff on tv.

2) Performance: Having a homegrown squad will play better than any mash up of foreigners. Again, this isn't the EPL. Having a squad full of foreigners will likely just result in a disjointed mess like TFC in year one.

3) Revenue: Teams can generate quite a bit by developing good local players.

Don't get me wrong, I think these rules are unfair, but I'm not getting too worked up over it.

Well, i wouldn't say all clubs because i haven't seen Montreal do anything with their academy yet.

Marketing? If the opinion of most of the supporters groups is any indication you could dress an all foreign lineup and as long as you win things will be swell.

Inter Milan didn't seem to be a disjointed mess last year did they? Year one of TFC featured the highest Cdn content of any year yet and it was our worst so not sure you can use the foreign mish-mash card on that one. The reason they sucked was because they were a first year team battling injuries and had a ****ty coach/GM.

Seeing as the club only gets a 2/3 cut of revenues from player transfers and those funds are held in trust to be used for Soccer infrastructure spending there really isn't a financial incentive to have an academy. Sure there's a 500K lump sum to be used as allocation money for a 2 year window, but you would have to sell one quality player each year to cover the annual costs of an academy.

My point isn't that THEY WILL CUT the academy programs, it's that this ruling opens the door to re-examine the expenditures and force the academy to justify the costs involved of running it.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Complete and utter joke. Done with 36 years of suppporting various incarnations of the Whitecaps, and done with this thread.

Yes let's totally overlook the massive financial commitment that the Whitecaps have made to developing young Canadian players through their residency program and completely ignore the fact that without MLS and USSFD2 there would be no full-time professional soccer in Canada.

[Gian-Luca]

Come on G-L, be fair.

I am being fair. DoyleG did exactly what I indicated on bigsoccer the day Toronto got an MLS team. DoyleG spouted a lot of stuff at the time (including IIRC that Toronto's MLS team would flop and no other Canadian cities would get an MLS team) so it is difficult to respond to a generic "Doyle was right" claims if those claims are not precisely identified. He was so anti-MLS coming to Canada that if he was right about anything, I suspect it would be more by fluke than by good judgment - and he'd still be wrong more than he was right.

I don't think so either. But of the current batch of Canadians on MLS, who would have still been signed had the existing rules not been in place? DeRo. Anyone else? Why bring De Guz or Cann back from Europe? Would Attakora or Gala have even seen the field?

I agree that is a potential concern - I've already mentioned it with Adrian Cann being the prime example. But with rosters expanding in size for next year and two more teams coming into the league (and one the year after that) even if you had the most anti-Canadian GM in charge, I really doubt they would be foolish enough to simply ignore or dismiss all the local talent. There simply isn't enough American talent to fill all those NA domestic spots even if there was a deiberate agenda against Canadian players (which I don't think there is). There are also players on US based clubs that have been signed and brought back from Europe, so if the US MLS teams will do it when they don't count as domestic players, I have to figure the Canadian clubs will continue to do so when Canadian players do count as domestic players. A player with the raw talent of Attakora was always going to see the field even with no quota at all. What concerns me is Cdn. players getting shafted by their options being limited. That's just wrong and completely unnecessary.

[Bill Spiers]

I also didn't understand this bit in the article:

"Lenarduzzi said the Whitecaps are clearly interested in supporting Canadian national teams and have demonstrated that by investing heavily in a residency program for young Canadian and international players. The club holds territorial rights to sign young players from B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba and recently signed talented 16-year-old Ontario midfielder Bryce Alderson because he lived just outside TFC’s designated territory."

Sorry to hear that the Whitecaps picked up Alderson. I don't usually like to put a tag on players this young but a future Canadian captain IMO. A loss for TFC! I see the Whitecaps have also signed Adam Polakiewicz from Kitchener to add to their existing Ontario contingent of Russell Teibert and Kevin Cobby. They're certainly busy in Ontario!

[Macksam]

Nah, I argued against DoyleG's assertion. Even posted a document from a Toronto law firm that seemed to suggest it was illegal. While I certainly argued, until I was blue in the face, that the USSF and MLS were no friends of Canadian soccer, I had no idea that they would be allowed to so completely pillage the country.

Appalled at the various rationalizations of so-called Canadian soccer fans. Suspect they might get it if it was their profession that was thrown wide-open to american competition for jobs that was not reciprocrated down south. Complete and utter joke. Done with 36 years of suppporting various incarnations of the Whitecaps, and done with this thread.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the rule as much as the next guy, and think it wasn't necessary as you didn't need to start any Canadians to begin with. However, I don't think this will be an issue in the long run.

However, I would support the CSA stepping in. I think they should start with a requirement of 4 Canadians on the senior roster, and make gradual increases each year. Maybe something like this:

2011: 4 Canadians

2012: 6 Canadians

2013: 8 Canadians

.

.

.

2017: 16 Canadians

[Gian-Luca]

Appalled at the various rationalizations of so-called Canadian soccer fans.

Plural? I have only seen one poster in this thread (TFC Regina) say they like or don't mind this rule. Everyone else seems to hate it, including me - where the debates seem to be taking place is the different ways and to what extent the non-reciprocal rule will be negative towards Canadian soccer players.

[Macksam]

Well, i wouldn't say all clubs because i haven't seen Montreal do anything with their academy yet.

Marketing? If the opinion of most of the supporters groups is any indication you could dress an all foreign lineup and as long as you win things will be swell.

Inter Milan didn't seem to be a disjointed mess last year did they? Year one of TFC featured the highest Cdn content of any year yet and it was our worst so not sure you can use the foreign mish-mash card on that one. The reason they sucked was because they were a first year team battling injuries and had a ****ty coach/GM.

Seeing as the club only gets a 2/3 cut of revenues from player transfers and those funds are held in trust to be used for Soccer infrastructure spending there really isn't a financial incentive to have an academy. Sure there's a 500K lump sum to be used as allocation money for a 2 year window, but you would have to sell one quality player each year to cover the annual costs of an academy.

My point isn't that THEY WILL CUT the academy programs, it's that this ruling opens the door to re-examine the expenditures and force the academy to justify the costs involved of running it.

Did you not see where I posted this isn't the EPL? When I said that, I was insinuating that this isn't a top league in europe.

As for the last point, the future of MLS is through the academies. Any team that doesn't invest will be left behind so it would be foolish cut costs associated with running them. At the very least, that's my prediction.

[Grizzly]

Plural? I have only seen one poster in this thread (TFC Regina) say they like or don't mind this rule. Everyone else seems to hate it, including me - where the debates seem to be taking place is the different ways and to what extent the non-reciprocal rule will be negative towards Canadian soccer players.

You forgot BBTB or have you been fortunate enough to be relegated to his ignore list?

[dyslexic nam]

I think they should start with a requirement of 4 Canadians on the senior roster, and make gradual increases each year. Maybe something like this:

2011: 4 Canadians

2012: 6 Canadians

2013: 8 Canadians...

That is exactly the kind of compromise I was thinking of last night. It would preserve the Canadian content requirement, make some time-limited concessions to the clubs to allow them to get their academies functioning properly, and would establish a strong incentive to make those academies effective tools for developing Canadian youth.

For good academies (in tandem with the other development tools for youth players), this kind of quota should be easilly filled by the three clubs and therefore be no burden on them. I would suggest a couple of changes - I don't think there should be a difference in the number of Canadian players between 20011 and 2012 (which would penalize Montreal), and while it could eventually go beyond 8 I don't think it should continue to ramp up to anything like 16 at a rate of +2 per year (the idea of 48 MLS callibre Canadian players by 2017 is great, but not something I would want to "legislate" at this point).

The negative side of this approach is that it only addresses one side of the issue - the minimum compliment of Canadian players on Canadian MLS teams. The other issue is the fact that the Canadian player pool still face an unequal playing field in comparison to their American counterparts (who can still freely fill the other 20ish 'domestic' spots on Canadian teams), and this isn't addressed by establishing minimum Canadian quota rules. In this sense, I think the USSF did something that we can do very little about. It isn't just about Canadian content on Canadian teams, it is also (and some would say more significantly) about the developmental opportunities available to Canadian players, and in that respect there may be little we can do about the USSF decision. They chose to retain 'border' restrictions on Canadian players, while eliminating similar restrictiosn on Americans. And unfortunately, due to the size of the Canadian talent pool, we can't really impose blanket recoprical restrictions on US players.

[jpg75]

Did you not see where I posted this isn't the EPL? When I said that, I was insinuating that this isn't a top league in europe.

As for the last point, the future of MLS is through the academies. Any team that doesn't invest will be left behind so it would be foolish cut costs associated with running them. At the very least, that's my prediction.

What does it matter whether it's the EPL or MLS? You don't have to be in a top league to make a team full of foreigners work to your advantage. If you want an example close to home just look at the NY Cosmos of the old NASL, they had 1 friggin' American (Shep Messing- in net to boot!) in the lineup most games and they did pretty well.

A more recent example would be the DC United teams of the early and mid 2000's who had 6 or 7 quality foreigners - mostly in attacking roles -surrounded by a dozen or so American role players.

[morbital]

We get it. Your employer is awesome.

Yet for all of your hyperbole we have to put up with in every thread, your facts are rarely correct. You claim that the Caps are more Canadian than TFC year after year, and yet TFC played the same total number of Canadians (or more) as the 'Caps in the head-to-head matches from each of the past two Canadian Championship tournaments (you know, that competition where Vancouver's 2 wins in 6 matches means the 'Caps are "consistently" winning according to you?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Canadian_Championship

Number of Canadians used in head-to-head matches: Toronto 10, Vancouver 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Canadian_Championship

Number of Canadians used in head-to-head matches: Toronto 10, Vancouver 9

Go ahead, count it up for yourself. Or don't, as it wouldn't fit into your "LoLZ Whitecaps r 733t y0" M.O. on this board.

It's going to to be so nice to trash you guys next year, maybe then you'll finally realize you have a sh*t team and nothings going to change that.

I'll say this again, Whitecaps, 36 years, missed the playoffs 4 times, TFC, 4 years, 4 missed playoffs. That's pretty consistent good results...

</rant>

---

I'm not saying I like this new rule, but ffs, Victor is way offside with his comments, especially considering that the clubs have done way more to develop players than the CSA ever has.

I'm hearing doom and gloom posts that there will be no canadians on TFC/VAN's rosters next season.. Are you kidding me, of course there will be!

Canadians should earn their spots however, not think it's automatic because there's a quota. (=Better and more determined players)

Someone on the SS forum talked about the NHL, they don't enforce a "American" rule, but guess what, more and more yanks are making the rosters. The same thing will happene in the MLS here.

The fact that Canadians are not counted as domestics south of 49 sucks i agree, but you can't blame the clubs for that (which Victor has done)

This thread is about "CSA-vice president" says so in the title, the rule itself should be discussed in another thread I think, because Victor's comments we're offside, whether the rule sucks or not!

[Gian-Luca]

Sorry to hear that the Whitecaps picked up Alderson. I don't usually like to put a tag on players this young but a future Canadian captain IMO. A loss for TFC! I see the Whitecaps have also signed Adam Polakiewicz from Kitchener to add to their existing Ontario contingent of Russell Teibert and Kevin Cobby. They're certainly busy in Ontario!

While it is annoying from a TFC fan perspective that Vancouver keeps raiding Ontario for players, with respect to the issues raised in this thread, the fact that they keep doing so is unlikely to be because they are hell-bent on filling up their domestic spots with nothing but American players, as some others would seem to want to believe.

[Macksam]

What does it matter whether it's the EPL or MLS? You don't have to be in a top league to make a team full of foreigners work to your advantage. If you want an example close to home just look at the NY Cosmos of the old NASL, they had 1 friggin' American (Shep Messing- in net to boot!) in the lineup most games and they did pretty well.

The old NASL was one of the best leagues in the world at the time beleive it or not so that falls into the modern day prem and Serie A argument. Also, there were hardly any Americans in the league regardless. Most of the NA players were from Canada.

A more recent example would be the DC United teams of the early and mid 2000's who had 6 or 7 quality foreigners - mostly in attacking roles -surrounded by a dozen or so American role players.

I'm saying having a lineup with a majority of foreigners. This DC team from what you describe still were feidling a majority of American players.

The main premise is that in the future, having the majority of your lineup homegrown in the MLS will trump any line up that has a majority of foreign players. This is due to the fact that we can't get a lot of good foreigners in this league.

[Free kick]

So let me get this straight.

The Americans are keeping a quota system for thier players because they're stupid? Because they want to stay married to a bad idea? Not bloody likely. Seems to have been working pretty good for the US soccer progam so far and I think Canadian soccer supporters have every right to be furious that the quota system for Canadians has been tossed. Good enough for the Yanks but not good enough for us, eh?

And while I'm sure MLS lawyers have been picking over this scheme with a fine toothed comb how the Hell could such a business practice be legal in Canada. Don't forget that MLS is a single entity platform. A US based business with branch franchises in Canada. Placing restrictions on where Canadian citizens can be employed within that business while giving US citizens unlimited access to employment at Canadian franchises has to be illegal under Canadian law. If not Canadian labour law than at least provincial labour law. Or you'd at least think so.

Wonder what the MLS Players Union thinks of all this?

Agreed. I have nothing more to add. This rule change will short change canadian players but benefit the building process for the Whitecaps

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

Victor is on It's Called Football at 2:40 EDT to talk about this

You can listen live at 24thminute.com or after about 4 p.m.. I'll post the link

[jpg75]

The old NASL was one of the best leagues in the world at the time beleive it or not so that falls into the modern day prem and Serie A argument. Also, there were hardly any Americans in the league regardless. Most of the NA players were from Canada.

I'm saying having a lineup with a majority of foreigners. This DC team from what you describe still were feidling a majority of American players.

The main premise is that in the future, having the majority of your lineup homegrown in the MLS will trump any line up that has a majority of foreign players. This is due to the fact that we can't get a lot of good foreigners in this league.

The NASL was a good league, better than MLS relative to the rest of the world, but it was not comparable to the EPL or Serie A.

DC United fielded a majority of Americans because THEY HAD TO.

Anyways, like i said before, we'll see what happens...

[dyslexic nam]

This thread is about "CSA-vice president" says so in the title, the rule itself should be discussed in another thread I think, because Victor's comments we're offside, whether the rule sucks or not!

It is pretty clear that this thread has evolved into a discussion of both the rule itself and the opinions expressed in the OP's cited article. Since many of the strategies required to deal with this rule change would require the authority and action of the CSA, I think it is quite legitimate to have both elements discussed in this thread.

[RS]

It's going to to be so nice to trash you guys next year, maybe then you'll finally realize you have a sh*t team and nothings going to change that.

I'll say this again, Whitecaps, 36 years, missed the playoffs 4 times, TFC, 4 years, 4 missed playoffs. That's pretty consistent good results...

</rant>

---

"Rah! Rah! My employers are the best!!!"

Once again you avoided the facts that I brought to the discussion (care to retract that "more and more Canadian statement?), instead we get more bullshyt hyperbole from you. The current Caps haven't been around for 36 years, no matter how much they try to convince their fans as such.

However, much congrats to the Whitecaps making the playoffs (that is sincere). Your arrogance about a Residency that plucks Ontario-based players (apparently only TFC has to abide by regional restrictions, for some reason) and was largely the work of a coach that is no longer there is very becoming, though.

As for TFC, I long ago realized that the team was crap under Mo Johnston. I've mentioned it on this board many times previously, and didn't need some company shill from the Whitecaps to make me realize that. I'll say it again in case you don't understand: Toronto FC is in shambles right now.

But guess what, I support my team despite the results. I know, that might be a foreign concept to a frontrunning lackey such as yourself. We can't all be bought-and-paid-for "supporters" like you, Morbital.

The worst possible thing happened for you, though. TFC got rid of Mo Johnston. This doesn't guarantee success in any way, but it vastly improves their chances, and just in time for your vaunted Caps to get into the big leagues.

Regardless of what happens, we still won't give a crap about you nearly as much as you seem to care about us (that one hurts the most, don't it?).

Since you love numbers so much (unless they don't jibe with your BS assertions), here's some more for you to chew on:

Glorious Whitecaps - 9 years, 0 Voyageurs Cups.

Shitty TFC - 3 years, 2 Voyageurs Cups.

</rant>

--

As for the actual subject at hand, I'll say it again: the CSA is absolutely to blame for allowing this rule change to pass. VM's comments on the matter make it seem like they weren't even aware of the changes until the ruling passed, which is a resounding statement about the CSA and just how fucking clueless they are.

They either allowed the ruling to pass because they don't have the balls to strike it down as the governing body in Canada, or they were caught unawares and are simply reacting to a ruling passed without their input or knowledge. Neither situation paints a pretty picture, does it.

The clubs are always going to look out for their own interests, let's not be naive here. There are going to be times when they push for things that may not be in the best interests of Canadian soccer. It is at that time that the organization in charge of the best interests of Canadian soccer needs to push back.

While the rule is obviously unjust, I don't think the clubs will completely give up on Canadian players. The fact is, those are the players who will always be in the most abundance and come at the lowest cost.

Everyone knows what the Whitecaps Residency has done, and TFC Academy is pouring millions into their development (I typo'd earlier, it's $15 million, not 35). Once Montreal joinds MLS they'll need to actually have an academy that isn't simply their reserve team.

I don't see any of these developmental pathways dying out, regardless of the new ruling. There's simply too much to gain from developing youth (and jpg75, the transfer fees are different for homegrown players than they are for "regulars" players... the clubs keep a lot more in the case of homegrowns).

For those worried that the higher-end Canadian players will get the shaft, especially in the States where they compete for international spots, I point to players like Will Johnson, the three in Houston, Dejan Jakovic, and so on. If the player are good enough, they'll get a roster spot and make a decent living.

Yes, they should be considered domestic in the US if Americans are domestic up here, but something tells me that battles is going to be a long one.

[kj52]

Maybe if the CSA spent more time worrying about soccer instead of how they can screw over a few people in Alberta things would improve.

[Gian-Luca]

"

While the rule is obviously unjust, I don't think the clubs will completely give up on Canadian players. The fact is, those are the players who will always be in the most abundance and come at the lowest cost.

I don't think they are going to give up on Canadian players at all, to be honest. If they fill up their roster with nothing but Canadians and have the noblest, most patriotic of intentions, it is always going to be advantageous to have more options for a player pool then having fewer options. There is no downside for the clubs at all, so if I'm the Whitecaps, why wouldn't I ask for basically the same deal that TFC got with Americans counting as domestics?

The same applies to the US clubs, which is where it gets surprising that it doesn't go both ways. There's nothing advantageous for those clubs to have their player pool limited in any way. Only the USSF has any benefit from the non-reciprocation, which is completely silly as there is no ready & waiting army of Canadian players that is about to take away all of the domestic spots on US teams - if there was, there'd be no need for making US players count as domestics in Canada in the first place.