CSA vice-president criticizes MLS over new domestic content regulations

[TFCRegina]

If we did that, Canadian MLS teams would be the only professional soccer teams in the world that don't have one.

In fact if this rule goes through, that will essentially be the case anyways.

Its ironic that while FIFA fights to create real domestic quotas there are a ton of TFC fans who don't see a problem with this retarded rule.

I hope the CSA finally shows some power and does not allow this rule. It is total bull****.

Why is it retarded?

I don't understand why protectionism is necessary.

The league is here at home, Canadians can see there are opportunities to play in the league.

Is anyone aware what is going on in the States with respect to the NHL?

The number of Americans playing there is increasing as a percentage of players in the league.

Guess what, they did it without quotas.

If you create opportunities domestically, you'll have domestic players who rise to the quality necessary to compete for those spots. There's absolutely no sane reason for protectionism other than nationalistic bull****. And guess what, it doesn't make the likes of Gabe Gala or Lombardo or Braz better...

FIFA fought for the quota system because the clubs of Italy and other continental nations (where nationalism/racism runs strong) were being hurt by clubs from England who were fielding the best players in the world.

[Vancouversoccerman]

Nobody's suggesting re-implementing Canadian quotas in MLS. But players and teams need to be able to compete on a level playing field. In this scenario, American players are given preferential treatment while playing in Canada, lowering opportunities for domestic players. Meanwhile, Canadian players playing for American clubs in the same league will need to be better and cheaper than every available international player to warrant their spot. That's just wrong any way you look at it.

I also believe the very good players (the top third) will always find their club and their price range. But for the other two-thirds, these Canadian players will be at a competitive disadvantage to American players of equal ability. They'll also be paid significantly less than Americans in this scenario.

And as good as the academy model may be, it could easily be used as a tool to shortchange players in this case. Look at the worst-case scenario. It's plausible that a team like TFC could use their academy to warehouse good Canadian players who are ineligible for a European work visas. They could all be on non-guaranteed contracts at the MLS minimum development salary or possibly less. They can't go to the States, because they don't warrant an international spot. They can't go to Europe, because they don't have the heritage or Canadian National Team standing. Their pro opportunities would consist of three Canadian MLS teams or USSF Division II. That's hardly good for development.

I'm no fan of the CSA, but they're right to speak out against this. I'm just surprised more players aren't speaking up.

[Ivan]

I would imagine TFC has rights to the Golden Horseshoe. It's approximately the same population of the combined populations of the Four Provinces that Vancouver has.

Reportedly, TFC signed Dylan Carrierro from Manitoba. Wouldn't that be Whitecaps territory or did the Whitecaps pass?

[narduch]

Why is it retarded?

I don't understand why protectionism is necessary.

The league is here at home, Canadians can see there are opportunities to play in the league.

Is anyone aware what is going on in the States with respect to the NHL?

The number of Americans playing there is increasing as a percentage of players in the league.

Guess what, they did it without quotas.

If you create opportunities domestically, you'll have domestic players who rise to the quality necessary to compete for those spots. There's absolutely no sane reason for protectionism other than nationalistic bull****. And guess what, it doesn't make the likes of Gabe Gala or Lombardo or Braz better...

FIFA fought for the quota system because the clubs of Italy and other continental nations (where nationalism/racism runs strong) were being hurt by clubs from England who were fielding the best players in the world.

But don't you see that its not fair? Its only fair if the rule is reciprocal league wide.

This rule actually makes Canadians worth less.

Sure, in an ideal world soccer would be handled like the NHL, NBA, MLB, etc. But that isn't how this sport works on the professional level.

The proposed MLS rule for Canadian clubs is a joke.

[Richard]

I think imposing a quota for Canadian players would condemn the Canadian MLS clubs to insignificance for a number of years. Look what the quota has done for TFC! Lenarduzzi is quite right when he says there is a shortage of affordable Canadian players capable of playing in MLS and he's the one who has to run the business for the Whitecaps owners. Yes Mr. Montagliani, their No. 1 priority is to put a winning team on the field, just ask the ticket-buying fans.

On the other hand I compliment Montagliani for feeling the CSA should seriously consider launching a new league — with a high Canadian-player content — to develop young players that will move up to a higher level. Montagliani said countries that have done well at the international level recently are those whose national governing bodies have been involved in player development. No argument there, why don't you get on with it? The Australian FFA did it, why not Canada. Your biggest challenge will be finding the money. But somebody at the CSA has to take charge and make it happen the way the FFA did.

What are you waiting for Mr. Montagliani?

[tmcmurph]

The solution for all concerned is quite simple. Perhaps too simple for the "genius types" running the CSA and MLS.

Canada = 10% of North America's population

USA = 90% of North America's population

The 3 Canadian clubs can count 90% of their US players as domestics, the US teams can count 10% of their Canadian players as domestics.

So with a roster of 30 minus the 8 internationals you would have 2-3 spots for Canadian players on 16-17 US clubs count as domestics and the Canadian clubs could count 19 US players as domestics . With 20 teams you would have opportunity for about 40-60 full time Canadian players. How many do we have now? 12?

Just put me in charge for a week damnit!

[TFCRegina]

Nobody's suggesting re-implementing Canadian quotas in MLS. But players and teams need to be able to compete on a level playing field. In this scenario, American players are given preferential treatment while playing in Canada, lowering opportunities for domestic players. Meanwhile, Canadian players playing for American clubs in the same league will need to be better and cheaper than every available international player to warrant their spot. That's just wrong any way you look at it.

I also believe the very good players (the top third) will always find their club and their price range. But for the other two-thirds, these Canadian players will be at a competitive disadvantage to American players of equal ability. They'll also be paid significantly less than Americans in this scenario.

And as good as the academy model may be, it could easily be used as a tool to shortchange players in this case. Look at the worst-case scenario. It's plausible that a team like TFC could use their academy to warehouse good Canadian players who are ineligible for a European work visas. They could all be on non-guaranteed contracts at the MLS minimum development salary or possibly less. They can't go to the States, because they don't warrant an international spot. They can't go to Europe, because they don't have the heritage or Canadian National Team standing. Their pro opportunities would consist of three Canadian MLS teams or USSF Division II. That's hardly good for development.

I'm no fan of the CSA, but they're right to speak out against this. I'm just surprised more players aren't speaking up.

Actually they need to be better OR cheaper than other internationals, or on the same level and benefitting from something else (maybe speaking english well). Of course that assumes stereotypes don't exist.

Why would they be paid less than Americans of equal ability? If the free market operates as it should, they should be paid on par with Americans. Internationals should command a premium, as they should be the skill players you're seeking.

You're so sure they'd be held back? First, you're assuming that nobody would be scouting our Academies (a dumb assumption considering that European clubs are always looking for cheap internationals), second you're assuming that TFC won't sign the quality Canadians from their Academy in preference for Americans (which there's no evidence for, and if they've invested time and money, they'd probably sign a Canadian of equal talent from their Academy over an American of that same talent level). And the players that aren't good enough can end up in USSF Div 2...

[TFCRegina]

But don't you see that its not fair? Its only fair if the rule is reciprocal league wide.

This rule actually makes Canadians worth less.

Sure, in an ideal world soccer would be handled like the NHL, NBA, MLB, etc. But that isn't how this sport works on the professional level.

The proposed MLS rule for Canadian clubs is a joke.

Actually if anything it will make the Canadians in the league worth more. Because Canadians who participate will be skilled Canadians and not unskilled/average ones. The average wage of a Canadian player should, in fact, rise with this rule change. You can only make the team if you're good enough to.

[dyslexic nam]

In the end, whether the Canadian academies should produce good players or not, and whether this is still a 'US league' or is more appropriately considered to now be a 2 nation league (3 teams in 2012), the fact remains that this puts Canadian players at a distinct disadvantage in relation to their American counterparts. In 2012, Canadian players will have an unrestricted pool of 3 teams to play for, and a secondary pool of 16 teams where they face artificial restrictions. In comparison, Americn players will have a pool of 19 teams to play for without any such restriction. On a very basic level, that isn't fair. And on a more significant level, it unilaterally curtails the developmental opportunities of Canadian players. Like it or not, the quota system is a developmental mechanism, and regardless of the academy infrastructures in place, quotas guarantee a set level of participation by domestic players in professional squads. It either should be removed equally for players/teams on both sides of the border, or left in place.

I think people are on the right track with the suggestion to CSA. If the USSF is looking after the best interests of its players (maximizing their developmental opportunities by maximizing their playing opportunities), then it is incumbent upon the CSA to do likewise. I am not familiar with the authority of the CSA here, but if in fact it has the ability to impose domestic player requirements on Canadian teams, whether by directly imposing a quota or indirectly by limiting the number of foreign players they can sign, then I think they need to take action. By all means, the CSA can work with the 3 teams to make sure that the eventual rules don't ruin their chance to be competitive by ensuring that squads aren't depleted by national team call-ups. But this kind of fine-tuning and communicating with the clubs shouldn't prevent the CSA from fulfiling its role as a body.

CSA's Mission Statement:

To provide leadership in the pursuit of excellence in soccer, nationally and internationally, in cooperation with its members and partners.

Well, here's your chance.

[dyslexic nam]

TFC Regina, I think you are missing something here.

"Why would they be paid less than Americans of equal ability? If the free market operates as it should, they should be paid on par with Americans. Internationals should command a premium, as they should be the skill players you're seeking."

- This is really quite simple. Candians playing in the US would bepaid less than their American counterparts because they would tie up one of the limited international spots. You are advocating a free market approach, but what you seem to be missing is that the propsed changes are the antithesis of a free market - they impose artificial restrictions on Canadian players. I'm all for the free market approach here - but that would imply opening up the American teams to Canadian players without penalizing them on the basis of nationality.

"Actually if anything it will make the Canadians in the league worth more. Because Canadians who participate will be skilled Canadians and not unskilled/average ones. The average wage of a Canadian player should, in fact, rise with this rule change. You can only make the team if you're good enough to."

- No, it just means that the only Canadian players who will be playing in the US will be the best of the Canadian crop. But these players are already playing for MLS teams, and are already being paid in relation to their abilities.

You also talk about the fact that the best players would find work. No one is arguing that - but this isn't about the very best Canadian MLS players. Of course they would probably be signed to a Canadian team or be deemed worthy of an international spot. It is the Canadian journeymen of the league that would be at a disadvantage. Take a player like Cann. It is probably unfair to call him a journeyman since he has been a revelation for TFC this year. But based on his past resume, he might not have been signed by TFC if a cheaper American alternative had been available under the proposed rules. And he very well may not have been deemed worthy of an international spot on an American team given his prior level of club play. So he might not have been given the opportunity to play in MLS and show that he still has a lot of game left under the proposed new system. The old/current system helped ensure that he would have the chance to sign for TFC.

[Vancouversoccerman]

You're so sure they'd be held back? First, you're assuming that nobody would be scouting our Academies (a dumb assumption considering that European clubs are always looking for cheap internationals), second you're assuming that TFC won't sign the quality Canadians from their Academy in preference for Americans (which there's no evidence for, and if they've invested time and money, they'd probably sign a Canadian of equal talent from their Academy over an American of that same talent level). And the players that aren't good enough can end up in USSF Div 2...

European clubs can scout any player they like, but if they don't qualify for an EU permit (through heritage, national team appearances or an improved FIFA ranking for Canada) they can't go.

And yes, they could be held back just the same as British players were held back prior to the rules regarding player movement.

[Vancouversoccerman]

...and one more thing. How long would it take for Canadian players to find ways to become naturalized Americans in this scenario? How will you feel when you see the first Canadian developed player suiting up for the United States?

[TFCRegina]

TFC Regina, I think you are missing something here.

"Why would they be paid less than Americans of equal ability? If the free market operates as it should, they should be paid on par with Americans. Internationals should command a premium, as they should be the skill players you're seeking."

- This is really quite simple. Candians playing in the US would bepaid less than their american counterparts because they would tie up one of the limited international spots. You are advocating a free market approach, but what you seem to be missing is that the propsed changes are the antithesis of a free market - they impose artificial restrictions on Canaidan players. I'm all for the free market approach here - but that would imply opening up the american teams to canadian players without penalizing them on the basis of nationality.

"Actually if anything it will make the Canadians in the league worth more. Because Canadians who participate will be skilled Canadians and not unskilled/average ones. The average wage of a Canadian player should, in fact, rise with this rule change. You can only make the team if you're good enough to."

- No, it just emans that the only Canadian players who will be playing in the US will be the best of the Canadian crop. but these players are already playing for MLS teams, and are already being paid in relation to their abilities.

You also talk about the fact that the best players woudl find work. no one is arguing that - bur this isn't about the very best canadian MLS players. Of course they would probably be signed to a canadian team or be deemed worthy of an international spot. It is the Canadian journeymen of the league that would be at a disadvantage. Take a player like Cann. It is probably unfair to call him a journeyman since he has been a revelation for TFC this year. But based on his past resume, he might not have been signed by TFC if a cheaper american alternative were available. And he very well may not have been deemed worthy of an international spot on an american team given his prior level of club play. So he might not have been given the opportunity to play in MLS and show that he still has a lot of game left under the proposed new system. The old/current system helped ensure that he would have the chance to sign for TFC.

I guess you're missing the point I'm making.

1. I was referring solely to the Canadian clubs, I understand that there are artificial quotas in place in the US, however, Canadians are still competing for the international slots. The free market in that case, still works out because if there were no quotas at all, we'd be competing for a bunch of positions. In the end, we have to compete for a finite amount. But no spots are just "given" to Canadians. If anything, the quota system holds back the American players and that's fine by me.

2. You think Gabe Gala would still be in the league if there was no quota system? Average wage will rise if crap Canadians are cut from TFC/Vancouver/Montreal. Again, why should we be carrying deadweight? Why should we have to carry Canadians to fill a quota if they're not capable of competing at the level asked?

3. Who cares about journeymen? There's a league that has plenty of Canadian journeymen. It's USSF-2, where North Americans are counted as domestics. They can go there. We shouldn't have to carry deadweight just because of a flag someone is born under. Cann made the club because he was a qualified professional who had experience with two decent clubs from Europe. He also had a hometown advantage that was desirable for marketing purposes (although they haven't employed that). These advantages made him desirable over an American who may have played in MLS. He didn't make the club because of a quota.

[Gian-Luca]

I think imposing a quota for Canadian players would condemn the Canadian MLS clubs to insignificance for a number of years. Look what the quota has done for TFC!

The quota hasn't had an effect one way or another for TFC past the first year, as since that time it has barely existed, as Mo Johnston got around it by reducing it to a bare minimum and then trading for extra international spots. There are only four Canucks that played regularly for TFC this year, and they have hardly been the problem when it comes to results - even a blind hippopotamus could tell you that those four Canucks have been four of TFC's best players, and one of those (Adrian Cann) was initially signed as almost an after-thought a few weeks into the season just to make up the numbers and turned out to easily be the best signing of the season. If anything the quota (meagre as it was) only helped TFC this year by that signing alone.

The problem has been the plethora of very mediocre non-Canadians that make up the vast-majority of the roster. As a TFC fan the thought of the roster being filled with more of the likes of Gargan, Garcia, La Brocca, Ibrahim etc. fills me with soul-destroying horror. This season has been the ultimate proof that blaming things on a domestic quota is naive and myopic. It has demonstrated quite easily that the fault for TFC's lack of success ultimately lay with the person who was in charge of assembling the talent, whether it had a decent number of Canucks (seasons one and seasons three) or barely had any (seasons two and seasons four).

[Cheeta]

So let me get this straight.

The Americans are keeping a quota system for thier players because they're stupid? Because they want to stay married to a bad idea? Not bloody likely. Seems to have been working pretty good for the US soccer progam so far and I think Canadian soccer supporters have every right to be furious that the quota system for Canadians has been tossed. Good enough for the Yanks but not good enough for us, eh?

And while I'm sure MLS lawyers have been picking over this scheme with a fine toothed comb how the Hell could such a business practice be legal in Canada. Don't forget that MLS is a single entity platform. A US based business with branch franchises in Canada. Placing restrictions on where Canadian citizens can be employed within that business while giving US citizens unlimited access to employment at Canadian franchises has to be illegal under Canadian law. If not Canadian labour law than at least provincial labour law. Or you'd at least think so.

Wonder what the MLS Players Union thinks of all this?

[Gian-Luca]

2. You think Gabe Gala would still be in the league if there was no quota system? Average wage will rise if crap Canadians are cut from TFC/Vancouver/Montreal. Again, why should we be carrying deadweight? Why should we have to carry Canadians to fill a quota if they're not capable of competing at the level asked?

In that case, why should we have to carry Americans to fill a quota if they're not capable of competing at the level asked? There's going to be "deadweight" on any roster, regardless of the nationality. Why pick on Gabe Gala (who's still young and shown progress every year) when you can pick on at least ten non-Canadians on TFC as well that could arguably fit this description?

Nobody is actually in favour of carrying dead weight. What people want is an opportunity to be provided for Canadian players to develop. That opportunity exists, but the playing field for it is not level because the rule is not reciprocal in the way that Vancouversoccerman has quite eloquently indicated.

[Blue and White Army]

This is what I posted on the Southsiders board

CSA = joke.

If you want to call an MLS club out for not developing sufficient enough Canadian talent, perhaps the CSA should point their finger as Toronto FC. This is now their fourth season in MLS, and their academy has produced only one or two players that have stepped up to the senior side. (Yes, producing talent takes many years, but how many players are realistically about to crack into MLS from the TFC academy?)

Meanwhile, division-two Vancouver's academy is several times larger. The Whitecaps are not at fault here.

Ideally we would see what the USL/NASL have: all North Americans counted as domestic players on all clubs. But even then, how many Canadians play on USA-based D2 clubs? Not that many.

I'm not so interested in rules and regulations, as much as I am interested in seeing professional academies developing quality players. Players should earn their spot on a squad due to talent, not because of quotas. Otherwise, we'll have the soccer equivalent of Celine freakin' Dion on our radio airwaves 365/24/7.

The CSA could indirectly help by developing coaches for Canada's club academies. Right now, most of our young coaches have to take USSF- or UEFA-based courses.

CSA fail.

[Free kick]

This is what I posted on the Southsiders board

CSA = joke.

If you want to call an MLS club out for not developing sufficient enough Canadian talent, perhaps the CSA should point their finger as Toronto FC. This is now their fourth season in MLS, and their academy has produced only one or two players that have stepped up to the senior side. (Yes, producing talent takes many years, but how many players are realistically about to crack into MLS from the TFC academy?)

.

Nana Attakora, Gabe Gala, Doneil Henry and Nicholas Lindsay. All four are playing professionally and have pro contract in MLS. Four years, four profesional players developed for MLS. Thats not bad by any standard. How many players in MLS are there right now that have come through the whitecaps academy?

[RS]

If you want to call an MLS club out for not developing sufficient enough Canadian talent, perhaps the CSA should point their finger as Toronto FC. This is now their fourth season in MLS, and their academy has produced only one or two players that have stepped up to the senior side. (Yes, producing talent takes many years, but how many players are realistically about to crack into MLS from the TFC academy?)

Meanwhile, division-two Vancouver's academy is several times larger. The Whitecaps are not at fault here.

If this were true, then why is Bobby Lenarduzzi the one adamantly defending it in the media?

The fault is the CSA's, not either of the clubs. Trying to turn this into some stupid club rivalry (especially when TFC is on the cusp of pouring upwards of $35 million into its academy) is stupidity and ignores the issue.

The clubs seemed to have pushed for this equally, because they -- rightfully -- are looking out for their own interests. It is up to the CSA to protect the Canadian player, not the clubs.

Nana Attakora, Gabe Gala, Doneil Henry and Nicholas Lindsay. All four are playing professionally and have pro contract in MLS. Four years, four profesional players developed for MLS. Thats not bad by any standard. How many players in MLS are there right now that have come through the whitecaps academy?

Come on now, don't go comparing apples to apples when it's far easier to bash the big, bad Toronto club.

[Richard]

"If this were true, then why is Bobby Lenarduzzi the one adamantly defending it in the media?"

He's not defending it, he's boasting about it and for good reason!

[Vancouversoccerman]

I should point out that I only used TFC for example's sake. This isn't about club rivalries. It's also not about the ongoing issues we all have with the CSA.

This is about ensuring Canadians have a fair opportunity to compete throughout MLS. The solution is simple...ensure that Americans and Canadians have the same national standing throughout the league. I don't understand why anyone here is in favour of Canadian players being discriminated against in MLS?

[Lord Bob]

As far as I can tell neither Gabe Gala nor Nana Attakora have played a millisecond for TFC Academy - in fact, I believe they were both signed straight to MLS professional contracts in the club's first year, no? (Besides, Gala will be out of a job when the Canadian quota dies anyway.)

Doesn't really alter the point but it's worth saying.

[jpg75]

I have come to realize that the reason this would be legal from a labour standpoint is that this is not restricting labour, but in fact removing a labour restriction. Right now Americans count as Internationals on Cdn clubs in an American league, the new USSF rule essentially removes this restrictive distinction. Yes, Canadians are considered internationals on US clubs and it is restrictive to them, but this is an American-based enterprise afterall and the Cdn clubs are not businesses themselves, but branch plants of a US-based entity.

I think what it really comes down to is whether the CSA is willing to take ownership of the rules for Canadian based clubs, because right now they have been defering to the USSF. If there is a restriction on "non-Canadians" then this is not a restriction on Americans (it's a restriction on everyone who is not Canadian) and cannot be seen legally to be in direct conflict with the USSF regulations. Therefore both set of rules would overlap, but one would not contradict the other because you can have a non-Canadian restriction AND have Americans count as domestics.

[Vancouversoccerman]

From a labour law perspective, it's not relevant. Both Canada and the United States have special visas for professional athletes in all sports. An athlete does not have to prove they are more qualified than a domestic one to get it.

[Free kick]

I'm not so interested in rules and regulations, as much as I am interested in seeing professional academies developing quality players. Players should earn their spot on a squad due to talent, not because of quotas. Otherwise, we'll have the soccer equivalent of Celine freakin' Dion on our radio airwaves 365/24/7.

I agree with this. But if the americans can have quotas, then why not Canadians