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Toronto FC @ Vancouver Whitecaps - Wed. May 19


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@TFC07: We are handcuffed in vancouver. Kerfoot tried his best to get a gem of a SSS built on his own dime, but unluckily for us our here on the Left Coast, we don't get Fed Handouts and civic funds to build SSS's instead we get your transients, deadbeats, and retired and have to prop them up in BC on our taxpayers dime for Social housing, welfare, and BC Medical. What of your turf for the last years? Just now you get grass and you can start chucking rocks out of your glass house? Grow up.

@ Rudi: We have the same attitude towards our own domestic plastics that we have towards the current or impending Plastics in Toronto, Portland, Seattle, and Montreal. Fact is the U-Sector are largely the only folks in Hog Town with any claim to being long time lasting proper football supporters... all this TFC invented everything schtick from the RPB's is getting old... and It will get old when another group starts up here in Vancity too. It's hilarious following people I have never seen out of the Southside back to the train or car and they are hammered and singing the tune of one of our songs at the tops of their lungs and they are absolutely butchering the words or intent of the chant/song... It makes me laugh actually, not mad... It's the guys that can't get off their wallet for a measley $10 a game for "Swangard and glorified amateur Soccer" but because TFC is on TV every week they come rushing out in their colours once a year in Burnaby at Swangard... and act all hard and like English hooligans, because they don't "get it" or don't understand that football culture in this country is not what we saw on "The Football Factory" with Danny Dyer ffs.

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You just crapped on everything Joey Saputo has done with the Impact since 1993. Sure tickets are and have been given away, but people show up. The Impact name is recognizable through out Quebec, so you're comparison with TFC doesn't hold, as they started from scratch. What makes you think, that people won't be willing to pay a little more for a better product,i n a better stadium?

FYI the Impact will be "marketed" this Sunday against Fiorentina, and on June 2nd against AC Milan. The planning for MLS has been going on for years, If you bothered to do some research, you would realize, that the reason the stadium is full, is that the demand is there. Otherwise you would have run out of people to give tickets to, in the club's 17 years of existence.

Oy. You obviously don't understand what I am trying to get at. Try being less defensive and read critically.

I didn't make the comparison to TFC. It's been said here and elsewhere that MLS in Montreal is sure to be a success because look how TFC is doing and look at the attendance they had in the Lynx days. There is no respect paid to the amount of work that went into making TFC tickets such a hot commodity.

My entire premise has been that ... <deep breath> I HOPE THAT MONTREAL AND VANCOUVER UNDERSTAND THAT HAVING AN MLS TEAM DOESN'T GUARANTEE GREAT ATTENDANCE NUMBERS (at least after the first season once the novelty has worn off). Unfortunately, I do not share SteveBeau's optimism on page 2 of this thread and assume they are doing the legwork to make sure it's a success like TFC. It's just a simple observation, nothing more than that.

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I would add that TFC did benefit from: new ownership, being a new team, in a new, league, with a new stadium, with all new players, with new team name, and jerseys, new logo.. etc. Everything was was new and new branding meant that any association to the previous brand (AKA Lynx) was severed. So in the minds of the average fan, they are not thinking of an upgraded Lynx team/brand.

But in the other two cities, thats not the case, the brand is pretty much still in tact and although they may a good brand to us loyal soccer fans who know the game, to the average person it still the same same teams playing in what is supposed to be a stronger league. The brand is still asoociated with: a team that plays in front of 4-6K fans ( in Van) or 9-12K in Montreal in make shift parksa and that appeared on page three to five of the sports pages.

In regards to my beloved Expos, When Claude Brochu took over the team, they had made concerted effort to woo the medium sized business. But they failed. And why is that? because they are not there in sufficient numbers to support the Expos, Habs and Als all at once. In regards to the comparasions that have been made to the Als and Habs and their attendance. Well I NEVER SAID that Montreal couldn't support a professional sports team or even two. Nor did I say that there was no money in Montreal. But its not at all to the same degree as Toronto. And, that can have an impact when you consider that in Toronto, a majority of the 16K people who purchases season tickets paid anywhere 500$ to $5000. I would hazzard to guess that more than half of tickets cost more than $1000. THERE JUST ISN"T the same middle class in Montreal and not in the same numbers as Toronto. But if you chose, go ahead and disregard that factor a continue to listen to the propaganda that your politicians and media feeds you.

I say Montreal can be a successfull operation financially and one that relies on a lot of walk up crowds. But it wont match TFC's season tickets and that becomes a bit of an issue on days when the weather is bad. They can do as well as Columbus. Which, if you look at it in the bigger picture, is something we can all be happy about

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all this TFC invented everything schtick from the RPB's is getting old...

As someone who has far more actual contact with RPB then anyone in Vancouver, Montreal or elsewhere, I can honestly say that the RPB attitude that TFC "invented" anything relating to soccer support is actually an "invention" of rival supporters from other cities.

Sure, there may be the odd douchebag from that group that boasts about creating supporters culture in Canada, just as there are *******s in every group no matter the size, but those who actually are involved with running the group - along with the VAST majority of its members - do not take that view at all.

Just because it's become an internet meme that TFC supporters believe they "invented everything", that does not make it true.

On the flip side of that, is the supporter from (pick whichever longstanding USL/USSFD2 club's group) who refuses to acknowledge any of the progress that has been made in Toronto. It's perpetuated to this day, even on this very board. TFC fans can't be prousd of the supporters culture we've built here without being called plastics.

It's a madenningly ridiculous double-edged sword.

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Oy. You obviously don't understand what I am trying to get at. Try being less defensive and read critically.

I didn't make the comparison to TFC. It's been said here and elsewhere that MLS in Montreal is sure to be a success because look how TFC is doing and look at the attendance they had in the Lynx days. There is no respect paid to the amount of work that went into making TFC tickets such a hot commodity.

My entire premise has been that ... <deep breath> I HOPE THAT MONTREAL AND VANCOUVER UNDERSTAND THAT HAVING AN MLS TEAM DOESN'T GUARANTEE GREAT ATTENDANCE NUMBERS (at least after the first season once the novelty has worn off). Unfortunately, I do not share SteveBeau's optimism on page 2 of this thread and assume they are doing the legwork to make sure it's a success like TFC. It's just a simple observation, nothing more than that.

You need to take your own advice I am afraid. That is "...being less defensive and read critically". Your post several pages ago was responded to reasonably by Steve Beau effectively agreeing with your thesis and asking what makes you think they are not, and offering some reason why he thinks they are and will continue. So <deep breath> repeating, ad nauseum, your thesis adds nothing to the discussion. So, let me sum it up for everyone so we can move on:

1) EVERYONE agrees on what is needed in order for Vancouver and Montreal to be successful and it resembles somewhat what TFC has done.

2) The Montreal/Impact and Vancouver/Whitecaps folk who participate in these sorts of debates think their clubs, and successful Billionaire(ish) owners, will do exactly that and be as successful as TFC, and maybe more so.

3) The Toronto/TFC folk who participate in this sort of debate think that Toronto is unique in size and wealth and the others will not be able to emulate that and/or that the Impact and Whitecaps and their Billionaire(ish) owners are not going to try to emmulate the TFC (or Seattle) or model and as such may fail/not be as succssful as TFC.

4) No amount of reason, stats, data, history, hubris or bluster is going to convince the other side that they are wrong, and as such, only time will tell.

5) Given 1-4 above, and that "proof" will not come until 2011 & 2012 or later, is there any resonable reason for this argument to keep hijacking threads.

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As someone who has far more actual contact with RPB then anyone in Vancouver, Montreal or elsewhere, I can honestly say that the RPB attitude that TFC "invented" anything relating to soccer support is actually an "invention" of rival supporters from other cities.

Sure, there may be the odd douchebag from that group that boasts about creating supporters culture in Canada, just as there are *******s in every group no matter the size, but those who actually are involved with running the group - along with the VAST majority of its members - do not take that view at all.

Just because it's become an internet meme that TFC supporters believe they "invented everything", that does not make it true.

On the flip side of that, is the supporter from (pick whichever longstanding USL/USSFD2 club's group) who refuses to acknowledge any of the progress that has been made in Toronto. It's perpetuated to this day, even on this very board. TFC fans can't be prousd of the supporters culture we've built here without being called plastics.

It's a madenningly ridiculous double-edged sword.

Rudi.. if Toronto had a bit more confidence as a city you would not care others are calling you plastic.

Hopefully you can get a team to win a championship before the Pan Am games then build on that confidence, NHL MLB, and NBA are out of the reach of Toronto to win at .. perhaps MLS will be the one.

Good Luck.

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Rudi.. if Toronto had a bit more confidence as a city you would not care others are calling you plastic.

Um, no.This has zero to do with confidence. At the end of the day, I don't lose sleep over anyone calling us plastic, and I don't think anyone else does either.

In the context of a discussion board, however, where trash talk is flying about, I find it extremely prudent to call out the hypocrisy of others calling us plastic.

Both established supporters groups in the USSF D2 cities, especially the Southsiders, are openly looking to recruit more people to their group in advance of MLS showing up. In effect, they are recruiting the very people who, by their own definition, are plastics. The irony of them then calling RPB (or TFC support as a whole) plastic is not lost on me, and when they pull that card, I call them out on it.

Instead of projecting your crack civic theories on this, view this simply as what it is, a discussion on a message board about a very specific topic.

When Torontonians call Vancouverites and Montrealers their little brothers (or frought with little brother syndrome) in a dirisive way, is the reaction of those people also a result of a lack of confidence as a city, or simply those people calling BS as they see it?

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I would add that TFC did benefit from: new ownership, being a new team, in a new, league, with a new stadium, with all new players, with new team name, and jerseys, new logo.. etc. Everything was was new and new branding meant that any association to the previous brand (AKA Lynx) was severed. So in the minds of the average fan, they are not thinking of an upgraded Lynx team/brand.

But in the other two cities, thats not the case, the brand is pretty much still in tact and although they may a good brand to us loyal soccer fans who know the game, to the average person it still the same same teams playing in what is supposed to be a stronger league. The brand is still asoociated with: a team that plays in front of 4-6K fans ( in Van) or 9-12K in Montreal in make shift parksa and that appeared on page three to five of the sports pages.

In regards to my beloved Expos, When Claude Brochu took over the team, they had made concerted effort to woo the medium sized business. But they failed. And why is that? because they are not there in sufficient numbers to support the Expos, Habs and Als all at once. In regards to the comparasions that have been made to the Als and Habs and their attendance. Well I NEVER SAID that Montreal couldn't support a professional sports team or even two. Nor did I say that there was no money in Montreal. But its not at all to the same degree as Toronto. And, that can have an impact when you consider that in Toronto, a majority of the 16K people who purchases season tickets paid anywhere 500$ to $5000. I would hazzard to guess that more than half of tickets cost more than $1000. THERE JUST ISN"T the same middle class in Montreal and not in the same numbers as Toronto. But if you chose, go ahead and disregard that factor a continue to listen to the propaganda that your politicians and media feeds you.

I say Montreal can be a successfull operation financially and one that relies on a lot of walk up crowds. But it wont match TFC's season tickets and that becomes a bit of an issue on days when the weather is bad. They can do as well as Columbus. Which, if you look at it in the bigger picture, is something we can all be happy about

Been away too long, and I suggest you stick to your beloved GTA. cause you know F-All about Montreal.

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You need to take your own advice I am afraid. That is "...being less defensive and read critically". Your post several pages ago was responded to reasonably by Steve Beau effectively agreeing with your thesis and asking what makes you think they are not, and offering some reason why he thinks they are and will continue. So <deep breath> repeating, ad nauseum, your thesis adds nothing to the discussion. So, let me sum it up for everyone so we can move on:

Thanks Gordon. I appreciate the pointers. Although I didn't think I was repeating ad nauseum when I was trying to clarify for someone who obviously misconstrued what I was trying to say as nowhere was I trying to shit on what Saputo had done for the last 17 years and start an everyone-against-Montreal fight.

I thought it was a valid discussion but I guess I was wrong. Thanks to BWA for chiming in as that is good news and I'm glad to hear that Saputo has better relations with UM02 as last I heard he wished to cater more to the minivan troupe than the supporter troupe.

I'll leave you to your game thread now.

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Oy. You obviously don't understand what I am trying to get at. Try being less defensive and read critically.

I didn't make the comparison to TFC. It's been said here and elsewhere that MLS in Montreal is sure to be a success because look how TFC is doing and look at the attendance they had in the Lynx days. There is no respect paid to the amount of work that went into making TFC tickets such a hot commodity.

My entire premise has been that ... <deep breath> I HOPE THAT MONTREAL AND VANCOUVER UNDERSTAND THAT HAVING AN MLS TEAM DOESN'T GUARANTEE GREAT ATTENDANCE NUMBERS (at least after the first season once the novelty has worn off). Unfortunately, I do not share SteveBeau's optimism on page 2 of this thread and assume they are doing the legwork to make sure it's a success like TFC. It's just a simple observation, nothing more than that.

What makes you assume that they aren't doing the leg work? Is 17 years of progression not enough? Joey Saputo as stated many times, that the opportunity to move to MLS was presented several times, but he refused cause he felt the club wasn't ready. He decided to make the move, cause EVERYTHING points towards success in the first year and beyond.

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Joey Saputo as stated many times, that the opportunity to move to MLS was presented several times, but he refused cause he felt the club wasn't ready.

You actually believe that line of BS?

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No offense guys, but could you take this somewhere else? I keep logging and hoping to see some meaningful thoughts about the game - you know, the one in the title of the thread?

Start a thread called "Typical Voyageur-Style Club Banter" and leave it there - plain and simple.

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When Torontonians call Vancouverites and Montrealers their little brothers (or frought with little brother syndrome) in a dirisive way, is the reaction of those people also a result of a lack of confidence as a city, or simply those people calling BS as they see it?

Get the family tree right, Montreal is the older, womanizing drunk who hates working, Toronto is the hardworking, fun-is-a-four-letter-word CPA, And Vancouver is a teenage pothead.

Everyone knows that.

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Get the family tree right, Montreal is the older, womanizing drunk who hates working, Toronto is the hardworking, fun-is-a-four-letter-word CPA, And Vancouver is a teenage pothead.

Everyone knows that.

Teenage? WTF? We prefer tree hugging dirty hippy potheads.

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Rudi, I agree to agree with you on a lot of what you write.

again to clarify, I wasn't calling you a plastic, I have a lot of respect for U-Sector and the crap they had to deal with during the bad years of Toronto Footy, and now the crap MLSE has been serving up on the park... I myself get a bit wound up and baited into the whole thing... not to be too agreeable, but i do see your point about hypocrisy... it is rife with it.

What I think we are endeavoring to do is what we didn't do the first 8-9 years of the SS, try to grow organically. We are either looking for like minded people that have a passing interest in Football and watch them grow up into knowledgable fanatics, or Football fans that have never been to a game because of Eurosnobbery or the ones that have no idea that you don't need a mascot or jumbotron to tell you when it's okay to make noise like at Football and hockey games.... We are also trying to grow, so we are not usurped and beat to the punch by these plastic glory hunters, perhaps we can take some plastics and melt them down into something far less foul. ;) Also, it;s not like we are setting up booths and wrastling people into the fold, we are just inviting others into the fold and word or mouth, and doing inclusive things like pub nights and pre match bbq's etc... We're not interested in taking every moron that strolls by.

I think the attitude towards TFC Supporters, and the internet idea that they are very self important (RPB's especially) is that it doesn't appear organic, is one of: where there's smoke there's fire... the Stereotype has to come from somewhere, regardless if everyone has blood on their hands as far as adding to the legend by constantly talking about it.

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I would add that TFC did benefit from: new ownership, being a new team, in a new, league, with a new stadium, with all new players, with new team name, and jerseys, new logo.. etc. Everything was was new and new branding meant that any association to the previous brand (AKA Lynx) was severed. So in the minds of the average fan, they are not thinking of an upgraded Lynx team/brand.

True, but "Seattle Sounders" of the USL became "Seattle Sounders FC" of MLS, and suddenly it was a new brand, as far as the plastics were concerned.

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Plastics. Just drop the term.

As we are all part of a group, as in all of us, who are trying to grow the game in this country I am not sure we crossed some mythical point at which we can rightfully crap all over ANYONE who buys a ticket and goes to a soccer game in this country.

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Plastics. Just drop the term.

As we are all part of a group, as in all of us, who are trying to grow the game in this country I am not sure we crossed some mythical point at which we can rightfully crap all over ANYONE who buys a ticket and goes to a soccer game in this country.

I welcome the plastics with open arms and warm embraces. :P

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