Voyageurs Cup (Foundation for Canadian League)?

[Obinna]

Just had this thought while reading another thread.....

The Voyageurs Cup could be a stepping stone to reach a true national league.

Sure, it's a nice situatuion to have Toronto FC in MLS, and it will be nicer if we can get Vancouver Whitecaps and Impact de Montreal in there too. But what then? Yes, the current/future MLS situtuion is a much better option than another CSL failure. But where will that leave us? Three Pro clubs is not enough and a national league in our foreseeable future is nothing short of fantasy. A harsh reality for us Canadian Soccer Supporters.

But lets look beyond the foreseeable future for a moment. MLS is stable now but suppose it crumbles like its NASL predecessor? What then? What will happen to Toronto FC, or possibly Vancouver Whitecaps and Impact de Montreal? Three great clubs, one defunct league, many depressed Voyageurs, and back to the drawing board we go. Back to the old days where Canuck top flight soccer becomes nothing but a memory.

Well not all would be lost. Thanks to the Voyageurs Cup. You see, in the meantime rivalries will be building, mounting, escalating. Just look at year one? Imagine year twenty? This thing has potential, especially if we can land USL-1 franchises in a few more cities. Winnipeg, we need you. Calgary and Edmonton, step up and prove you can support pro soccer. Ottawa, if MLS doesn't pan out don't quit, achieve USL-1. I think its rather plausable in twenty years to have 3 MLS clubs--4 USL-1 clubs--and a 7 team Voyagers Cup.

So if the holy grail that is Major League Soccer reaches its demise, or even if Major Leage soccer survives, but stagnates at National Lecross League levels, guess what? We have STLL maintained rivalries, fanbases, infastrusture, and awareness. All thanks to the Voyageurs Cup. And when the time is right, we WILL have our own National League, but that hope hinges on two things. Growing the Voyageures Cup, and landing as MANY USL-1 franchises as possible!

[RJB]

The Voyageurs Cup, in it's current form, is a league, and it worked. The Voyageurs Cup is proof that a Canadian League would work and be successful.

[jimmynow]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

The Voyageurs Cup, in it's current form, is a league, and it worked. The Voyageurs Cup is proof that a Canadian League would work and be successful.

umm, you need more than 3 teams for a successful league.

There's not going to be a correlation between V Cup games and a canadian league. Unless that Canadian league has 4 games per season with 3 teams

[Blackdude]

The USL-1 failed in Edmonton and Calgary 4 years ago. Even The Impact was struggling for a time and the team shut down their operations for one year. Could the Voyageurs cup encourage possible owners from other canadian cities to say that it is good enough to join USL-1 and MLS? I see that football in Canada has grown since 2004 when both albertan teams folded, thanks to the voyageurs cup and also the CBC deal. It helps a lot that your national television station is willing to show games of clubs from their own backyard. The only thing we can do is to hope that other teams wanting to join the big 2 and it will make the voyageurs cup bigger.

[michaeltfc91]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

The Voyageurs Cup, in it's current form, is a league, and it worked. The Voyageurs Cup is proof that a Canadian League would work and be successful.

Its kind of hard to say that this is true. Yes the Voyageurs Cup is a successful tournament and in a league format. But would these top players and 95% sold out crowds still be there if the teams weren't playing in MLS / USL 1?

It's not like you can just take out the 3 teams and put them in the same league and all the players, media, fans will be the same.

Lets say in 5 years we have 2 MLS teams 4 USL 1 teams and 4 USL 2 teams playing in the Voyageurs Cup. Would taking out the 10 teams and putting them into a Canadian League work and be the same? I don't think it will. Still I love the VOyageurs Cup and the more teams joining MLS / USL is only good.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Obinna

Just had this thought while reading another thread.....

The Voyageurs Cup could be a stepping stone to reach a true national league.

Sure, it's a nice situatuion to have Toronto FC in MLS, and it will be nicer if we can get Vancouver Whitecaps and Impact de Montreal in there too. But what then? Yes, the current/future MLS situtuion is a much better option than another CSL failure. But where will that leave us? Three Pro clubs is not enough and a national league in our foreseeable future is nothing short of fantasy. A harsh reality for us Canadian Soccer Supporters.

But lets look beyond the foreseeable future for a moment. MLS is stable now but suppose it crumbles like its NASL predecessor? What then? What will happen to Toronto FC, or possibly Vancouver Whitecaps and Impact de Montreal? Three great clubs, one defunct league, many depressed Voyageurs, and back to the drawing board we go. Back to the old days where Canuck top flight soccer becomes nothing but a memory.

Well not all would be lost. Thanks to the Voyageurs Cup. You see, in the meantime rivalries will be building, mounting, escalating. Just look at year one? Imagine year twenty? This thing has potential, especially if we can land USL-1 franchises in a few more cities. Winnipeg, we need you. Calgary and Edmonton, step up and prove you can support pro soccer. Ottawa, if MLS doesn't pan out don't quit, achieve USL-1. I think its rather plausable in twenty years to have 3 MLS clubs--4 USL-1 clubs--and a 7 team Voyagers Cup.

So if the holy grail that is Major League Soccer reaches its demise, or even if Major Leage soccer survives, but stagnates at National Lecross League levels, guess what? We have STLL maintained rivalries, fanbases, infastrusture, and awareness. All thanks to the Voyageurs Cup. And when the time is right, we WILL have our own National League, but that hope hinges on two things. Growing the Voyageures Cup, and landing as MANY USL-1 franchises as possible!

I agree with the sentiment. The V-Cup is the de facto national league for Canada. Hopefully we can grow it, but that will only happen if we have more top level clubs.

It's nice to see the different clubs (MLS/USL) actually working together for something Canadian and of common interest.

Who knows what the future holds for MLS. If things did go sour, our top clubs now have a working relationship and a very successful one at that. That can only be positive, regardless what happens in the future.

[kmacphee]

Does anyone know what the contract term for NutraLite's sponsorship is? What about CBC's coverage plans?

If CBC can offer long term TV money, then this would be the real win here.

What kills any Canadian "league" is travel costs. TV money of some sort would be key.

I love that V cup...we have to open it up to more teams (More USL in Canada asap).

I have a feeling that it will be USL that grows soccer in Canada more that MLS.

[Cheeta]

^

Nutrilite & the CBC are on for a two year term if I remember correctly which would make 2009 the last year of their agreements. Not sure of the money involved but I can assure you it ain't much, but we're only talking 6 domestic matches so whatever the CSA can get from the deal the better. This tourny really is a work in progress.

I think a big part of the Vs Cup appeal is that it is an inter-league tourny, which is always going to be fun, and TFC aren't light years ahead of the 1st Division sides. Which kept it fun last year.

I also think you're spot on, kmacphee. If USL can get through this latest round of MLS expansion it'll be the league to add pro-clubs in Canada.

For me, it's more the lack of decent stadiums which are killing the prospect of USL expansion in Canada rather than travel costs. That reality exasperates every little expense you incur because it handicaps your revenue generating ability. A decent stadium in a decent location is worth thousands of arses in thousands of paid for seats every match. So as an investor willing to take a chance on pro-soccer in Canada you either have to dish out tens of millions on a capitol expenditure or live with being hobbled by second/third/fourth rate facilities with zero potential for growth.

Travel costs be damned, I can guarantee you if there was a decent 8 thousand seater in Winnipeg today we'd have a 1st Division team. And so might Quebec City, and so might Edmonton. Hell, so might Toronto for that matter but nobody around here (or groups of nobodies) are going to dish out $10-$15M on a stadium for a team they're going to lose money on every year. The annual operating loses I'm sure they could live with (civic duty, giving something back, that sort of thing) but not after putting $15M on the barrel head.

We'll see what happens with Vancouver and MLS expansion. With Montreal already out if Vancouver misses this round USL in Canada could get a real second wind.

[Tuscan]

Who started the Voyageurs Cup?

Hopefully this competition will become the FA Cup of Canada, and that it will hopefully remain no matter what league arises or how many professional teams get created here.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

Who started the Voyageurs Cup?

Hopefully this competition will become the FA Cup of Canada, and that it will hopefully remain no matter what league arises or how many professional teams get created here.

The Voyageurs started it in 2002:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15631

[kodiakTFC]

I don't really think its possible for the CSL or any team below USL-1 to jump into this tournament. I seriously doubt the Serbian White Eagles or FC London/London City can afford a trip to Vancouver. If they can, great, but I know theres no chance they can afford all the traveling required for the CCL. Furthermore, who in Toronto other then a sparse thousand or so would care enough to see any CSL team in the CCL.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I was in favour of seeing a fourth team in the tournament, but I have to agree it is tough for a number of reasons.

First off it seems to me the drop off in quality after USL Div 1 is too high, it is not like MLS to USL, which is like a 1st to 2nd tier, close. It is more like a few divisions.

Then how do you decide on the team? Do you draw from the CSL only, from PCSL too, from the PDL sides? Add the national amateur champ?

Once you had a group to draw the fourth side from, you'd have to have playoffs or knockout rounds, starting early in the season. Many of these teams do not have the squad together so early (Thunder Bay could not be ready before May-June as the players are mostly elsewhere).

The lesser side would not be a draw for the big clubs. Would folks in Vancouver want to see Thunder Bay? I doubt it. Maybe the White Eagles would get a crowd, mostly Serbians in Van or TO or Mtl, but the rest would not be draws, the matches would not be taken that seriously.

To raise their level the lower level clubs would end up stuffing their rosters, perhaps altering their real level. So their results would also be falsified, if they were to get points, as they would have altered their habitual way of putting a team on the field. While with the MLS and USL sides that is not the case, they played with more or less their normal sides.

I would much prefer to see a few Canadian cities get into USL 1 or even 2 if they saw fit, and then merit qualification for the cup on the basis of being a pro squad intact for more than half the year.

[tmcmurph]

All in time. For now the bar is at USL level. IF the CSL and all the other leagues want to participate the onus is on them to work out a qualification process between themselves and then apply to join.

In time I think they will and it will be great for Canadian soccer but for now it is working beyond their expectations.

[Artoo]

I wish the Canada Open Cup run by the CSL still existed. Toronto Lynx once competed. It could be the tournament to decide the fourth team...

[Artoo]

Ok... I just emailed Mr. Kaplan with a request to bring back the Open Canada Cup tournament.

[Artoo]

Wow... that was swift. Here is the reply I got:

"If the CSA would permit us to have the 4th team in Canadian Championship (which we have been lobbying for for many years, both during and post our Open Cup), we would then be open to a possible cup format to pick our representative. The CSA must act first on this one."

...Interesting :-)

[michaeltfc91]

Why does it have to be 1 winner gets into a 4 team table. That team goes through a whole series (4/5 rounds) then has to play 6 more games. They'll never win.

They should have 5 teams enter and join the 3 Canadian Championship teams in a quarter final.

Round 1: 20 Semi Pro

Round 2: 10 winners

Round 3: 5 winners + 3 pro

Round 4: 4 winners

Round 5: 2 winners

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Artoo

Wow... that was swift. Here is the reply I got:

"If the CSA would permit us to have the 4th team in Canadian Championship (which we have been lobbying for for many years, both during and post our Open Cup), we would then be open to a possible cup format to pick our representative. The CSA must act first on this one."

...Interesting :-)

The CSA draws the line at USL-1 because that's where CONCACAF drew the line in sanctioning the Voyageure's Cup as an official regional competition for entry into the CCL.

Getting a fourth team in the V-Cup goes beyond the borders of this country.

[Winnipeg Fury]

If the Toronto Lynx moved up to USL-2, then I would like to see the Lynx participate in the V-Cup. The Lynx are one of the original participants and that would set the stage for what would be an entertaining derby match between the Lynx and TFC.

Maybe TFC could win that one.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

If the Toronto Lynx moved up to USL-2, then I would like to see the Lynx participate in the V-Cup. The Lynx are one of the original participants and that would set the stage for what would be an entertaining derby match between the Lynx and TFC.

Maybe TFC could win that one.

Hey, TFC beat the Impact...something Montreal can't say of TFC.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

The CSA draws the line at USL-1 because that's where CONCACAF drew the line in sanctioning the Voyageure's Cup as an official regional competition for entry into the CCL.

Getting a fourth team in the V-Cup goes beyond the borders of this country.

Are you sure about this? The US Open Cup includes teams as far down as the PDL, and the winner of that competition enters the CCL qualifying round.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

The CSA draws the line at USL-1 because that's where CONCACAF drew the line in sanctioning the Voyageure's Cup as an official regional competition for entry into the CCL.

Getting a fourth team in the V-Cup goes beyond the borders of this country.

But what if a USL-2 team wins the US Open Cup?

DC United qualifying for this year's upcoming CCL by winning the '08 US Open Cup. How is it that CONCACAF would allow an American lower tier team and not a Canadian one?

Is it not up to the individual country's FA to nominate their reps, and not CONCACAF?

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Is it not up to the individual country's FA to nominate their reps, and not CONCACAF?

I am pretty sure that CONCACAF gets to say whether or not the method used to choose the entrants is acceptable. It is negotiated and entrance into the competition is not some sort of "right".

In the case of the US Open Cup a lower division team could win (in theory) but would have to beat mulitiple teams from their own and higher divisions and thus prove themselves a worthy entrant.

Adding one more team to a four-way round-robin tournament means a lower division team could get a couple of lucky games and be in the competition. Not the same situation at all.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

quote:Originally posted by ted

I am pretty sure that CONCACAF gets to say whether or not the method used to choose the entrants is acceptable. It is negotiated and entrance into the competition is not some sort of "right".

In the case of the US Open Cup a lower division team could win (in theory) but would have to beat mulitiple teams from their own and higher divisions and thus prove themselves a worthy entrant.

Adding one more team to a four-way round-robin tournament means a lower division team could get a couple of lucky games and be in the competition. Not the same situation at all.

A four-team Canadian Championship would require each team to play six games - the same number of games that a PDL team or a USASA team would have to win in order to claim the US Open Cup. Granted, a CSL team would not need to win every game in order to win the V Cup; however it would nonetheless be extremely difficult for a team of that calibre to play that many games and finish anywhere but last.