CSA drops the ball yet again (No Cup)

[CanadianSwede]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

Just some more info: FC Vaduz does not automatically get that UEFA cup spot, they just happen to qualify by winning the Liechtenstein Cup almost every year (some other team won in the late 90's I think). Even if they won the Super League (Div 1 in Swiss football) they would not be allowed to take the CL place (The other Swiss CL slot it given to the SwissCom Cup Winner) , or either of the Swiss UEFA Cup Spots. Vaduz isn't the only team from Liechtenstein in the swiss football leagues, there are a few teams in lower leagues.

I think this is a really good comparison to the Canada-USA thing.

So if FC Vaduz in theory were to play in the Swiss league and win it would they be given a CL spot? But yes i agree that they could take note from this.

Cheers

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by CanadianSwede

So if FC Vaduz in theory were to play in the Swiss league and win it would they be given a CL spot? But yes i agree that they could take note from this.

Cheers

Sorry if I was unclear, FC Vaduz (and all other Liechtenstein teams for that matter) can not get one of the Swiss CL or Uefa Cup spots. Liechtenstein only has one spot, and that goes to the winner of the Liechtenstein Cup.

FC Sion actually sued FC Vaduz and the Swiss federation a few years ago when FC Vaduz came in second in the Challenge league (Sion came in 3rd) and thus qualified for a home and away with the second to last team in the Super League for potential promotion. According to Sion, a non-swiss team could not be top division as per the swiss charter at the time. Vaduz lost their aggregate to I think Schafhausen , but the Swiss/ Liechtenstein relationship was rewritten and clarified. Liechtenstein teams can play in all levels of Swiss football, but can not qualify for any Uefa spots (Uefa Cup, Champions League, Intototo Cup, Fairplay) allocated to Switzerland. The Sion challenge also changed wording from ‘swiss players’ to ‘domestic players’ as the swiss league only allows a small number of non-domestic players (As they are not EU, they don’t count any European player as ‘domestic’) . This is because Sion also wanted their results against Vaduz overruled, as they played ‘ineligible players’. I only mention all this because it could happen between the USA and Canada. I don’t have any links to this, I lived just up the Valley from Sion when this went down and I was fascinated by the story.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Speaking for myself, as a ticket holder, I am not sure that I would pay to see that kind of match. If the competition was against only the two USL sides, then it might be a different story.

Then the whole thing is simplified: Vancouver and Montreal play a game and the winner plays TFC for all the marbles. What an exciting competition that would be. Certainly would put TFC on a par with teams that have had to win their respective league competitions.

If we are not going to have a serious cup competition but basically a two-day tournament I think there is no point. CONCACAF would never accept such an entry in a "champions league" (they have SOME kind of standard) and it would do nothing to promote the game to fans or to expose players to a higher level of play.

If this is how people feel then the whole thing is a waste of time.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

A CONCACAF example of the Vaduz situation is the Puerto Rico Islanders. They competed in the Caribbean qualifiers for the CONCACAF champions cup despite playing in the USL

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

I've posted this format many times.

The CSL already has an open cup competition. Amateur/semi-pro teams that want to compete need to enter this draw (if enough western teams enter, the draw can be split in two to lower travel). Play that out as it is, the winner advances to the Canadian Open Cup semi-finals where they play TFC in Toronto.

Montreal plays Vancouver in either a special cup fixture, or one of their USL games is designated as a cup game as well.

The winners meet.

It's simple and it would only involve two extra games for TFC and maybe only one extra game for the USL team that plays in the final. So its cheap too.

This won't happen unless it is simple and cheap.

[DarnCherry]

quote:

Speaking for myself, as a ticket holder, I am not sure that I would pay to see that kind of match.

But doesn't TFC have all of this hardcore support that would fill the stadium to see their beloved team play?

[rdroze]

quote:Originally posted by Cooks

I would assume from "Provincial Champion" he means the Senior Men's Challenge Cup Champion.

How about:

Left Side of Bracket......................................................Right Side of Bracket

PDL vs. Challenge Cup``````````````````````````````````Whitecaps vs. PCSL

meets````````-------->>>>>>>Winner to CCC<<<<<<<<-----````````meets

Open Can. Cup vs. TFC```````````````````````````````````Impact vs. CSL

Sorry for all the slashes. It's impossible to make a bracket on a forum.

How's this:

          PDL ---+                               +--- Whitecaps

                 |---+                       +---|

Challenge Cup ---+   |                       |   +--- PCSL

                     |                       |

                     |---- Winner to CCC ----|

                     |                       |

Open Can. Cup ---+   |                       |   +--- Impact 

                 |---+                       +---|

          TFC ---+                               +--- CSL 

(You can use the "code" tag or the "Insert Code" button to do fixed-width text.)

[Rocket Robin]

When would this competition take place? The PDL teams have already broken up as their players have gone back to school.

As I've found out three times this year (out of five), Toronto FC doesn't have enough reserves to play their MLS scheduled games because of injury and they keep having to cancel them.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

TFC can send a reserve side if they wish against the semi-pro teams and their top team for USL sides. They do so at their own risk of losing.

The reward is a place in the continental championship.

Which explains why an Open Cup won't be successful: All teams must put their best foot forward.

[thegoz]

TFC is tied to MLS, so it's considered an "American" club. That's why you don't see Cardiff City representing Wales in UEFA competitions, it's considered an "English" club. Isn't it a similar situation?

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by thegoz

TFC is tied to MLS, so it's considered an "American" club. That's why you don't see Cardiff City representing Wales in UEFA competitions, it's considered an "English" club. Isn't it a similar situation?

Do Cardiff FC play in the FA Cup, or a Welsh cup? Monaco is another example(granted, not a good example) of a club that plays outside it's own nation.

If TFC can enter the Concacaf Champions Cup through MLS, by finishing first in the league, or winning the MLS Cup, then shouldn't they be excluded from any Canadian Cup Competition that produces a Canadian representative to the Concacaf Champions Cup?

I'd love to see a Canadian Cup, however I think it's important that any representative to the Champions League be the winner of a National League. Imagine the boost it would give the CPSL if their league champion went to the Champions League! Just a thought.

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by rdroze

How's this:

          PDL ---+                               +--- Whitecaps

                 |---+                       +---|

Challenge Cup ---+   |                       |   +--- PCSL

                     |                       |

                     |---- Winner to CCC ----|

                     |                       |

Open Can. Cup ---+   |                       |   +--- Impact 

                 |---+                       +---|

          TFC ---+                               +--- CSL 

(You can use the "code" tag or the "Insert Code" button to do fixed-width text.)

Looks good, although, I'd place the two USL teams on opposite sides of the bracket. This would achieve two things. Firstly these teams already play each other at least twice a year, no point in having them play again in anything but a final. And secondly, It would me more marketable to have TFC play potentially both USL teams.

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

Do Cardiff FC play in the FA Cup, or a Welsh cup? Monaco is another example(granted, not a good example) of a club that plays outside it's own nation.

Both are very bad examples.

Monaco is fully integrated into the French system. Not only goes AS Monaco play in the french league, but Monacans are considered French Internationals. As far as I know there is no Monacan FA.

From what I understand Cardiff FC (as well as 5 other Welsh clubs) do compete in the FA Cup, if they were to win it they would not get the English Uefa spots. They are banned from Uefa Competition as they play in a Foreign National League, when their home country already has a Top Flight League. This is the big factor. Since the Welsh have a Uefa recognized top flight pro league, any Welsh teams not playing in Wales, are barred from Uefa competition.

Vaduz as mentioned is very like the Canadian situation. Neither Liechtenstein nor Canada have a top tier league of their own. They do have professional teams in Switzerland and the USA. Both have their own FA's and National teams. Because of this Liechtenstein and Canada have more in common than the other two examples.

[CanadianSwede]

I agree with piltdownman, the Liechtenstein example is the closest to Canada's situation. I really believe that if Canada had a spot in the CCC, it would only strengthen the level of soccer in our country. This will without a doubt help our level of play at the national level. The more home grown talent we have, the better. Its through tournaments like the CCC that elite players develop. While some may argue that the CCC is not an elite tournament, they should think again. I have also heard that CONCACAF is probably going to change the CCC into more of a Champions League style tournament with a group stage. If this were the case, maybe Canada would be given even more places in such a tournament. It would be great to see a team like Toronto FC win the tournament and be given a place the Club World Cup.

Cheers

[Regs]

In BC, PCSL should not be given a direct spot at 'the table', nor should the Open Canada Cup competition and I'm not too sure a PDL rep is needed either. We already have a championship in place and it is called the Challenge Cup. Through fair competition, the Challenge Cup winner is the best amateur team in the country, full stop. The PCSL is an amateur league and all they need to do in order to be a part of this development is to get back into the provincial cup competition. This is how it works and TBH is how it should work here.

The Challenge Cup winner should square off against the CSL playoff champion. The winner of that gains entry into the Final Four tournament that includes TFC, Impact, and Whitecaps.

The current Opne Canada Cup winner comes from a league that is already represented in one of the other 'groups', thus it is redundant.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

Cardiff City play in both the English Cup competitions and the Welsh Cup, as do Wrexham and Swansea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_F.C.

http://www.cardiffcityfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Fixtures/0,,10335~2006,00.html

[BrennanFan]

Could somebody please explain, what the hell is the 'challenge cup'? who plays in that cup? the csl? do the top amateur teams play in both the challenge and open cup? if, as you say, the challenge cup a true national amateur championship, then why was the CSL open cup started? is it totally redundant? the pcsl and csl are in the open cup right? am i wrong to think the open cup is a level above the challenge cup?

this is all so disorganized. the csa has to step in and somehow merge the challenge and open cups, force/ask the pcsl and csl to enter, and get the whitecaps, impact, and TFC to enter at the QF stage... and then call this the CSA CUP.

[Kibby]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

Could somebody please explain, what the hell is the 'challenge cup'? who plays in that cup? the csl? do the top amateur teams play in both the challenge and open cup? if, as you say, the challenge cup a true national amateur championship, then why was the CSL open cup started? is it totally redundant? the pcsl and csl are in the open cup right? am i wrong to think the open cup is a level above the challenge cup?

this is all so disorganized. the csa has to step in and somehow merge the challenge and open cups, force/ask the pcsl and csl to enter, and get the whitecaps, impact, and TFC to enter at the QF stage... and then call this the CSA CUP.

you would think CSL Open was a step above Challenge Cup... but didn't the amatuer team from Ottawa... Ottawa St. Anthony's win both the Challenge cup and the CSL Open Cup last year?

[ray]

My first reaction as a fan at hearing this news is to be dissapointed.

However, do we know what the two USL sides and TFC think of the idea of a Canadian club championship? A possible reason it has failed to materialize may be that there is only lukewarm support for the idea amongst the top professional organizations. Since it is TFC's debut season, I would think they are too preocupied with other matters to worry about playing in a domestic cup competition, let alone helping to get one off the ground. They might take a more active interest in later years. As for the Impact and Whitecaps, have either publicly supported the idea? I expect an organization like the Impact could largely organize such an event themselves if given the CSA's backing. The fact that it has not yet happened leaves me wondering how much interest there really is at this stage.

[Daniel]

I think the USL clubs are not interested for simple prestige, but want something out of it. Beit a place in a Cup or prize money. The CSA couldn't guarantee the first, and it looks like it's not even trying for the 2nd...

[Chet]

I don't see how money could be an issue. The Voyageurs organized the Voyageurs Cup and we don't have as much money as the CSA.

You could do this very cheaply. Keep it to eight teams (or six). Have the first round be a group stage with two groups. Each team plays the other teams in their group twice, once at home and once away. Teams cover their own travel expenses. The home team is responsible for publicity. Gate revenues are split between the teams, with the home team getting the larger share and the visiting team getting enough to cover their costs.

Small teams whose home fields are too small to accomodate the larger attendance they'd get from hosting TFC, Whitecaps or Impact could either lease a larger stadium for those games or make an arrangement to play at the other team's stadium in exchange for a share of the gate.

There's no reason the CSA has to spend any money on this at all other than the cost of a press conference and a trophy. If that's too much, maybe the Voyageurs could donate theirs.

In fact, I don't know why the teams couldn't organize this tournament themselves. Why does the CSA have to be involved at all? The more involved the CSA is, the less likely it is to happen.

[Chet]

If you want to keep it really simple, just make it a six game tournament between the Whitecaps, Impact and Toronto FC. That way you're assured of having decent enough attendance to cover the costs. Having amateur teams involved would only increase costs and drag down gate revenues.

You could then expand the tournament in future years.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Chet

If you want to keep it really simple, just make it a six game tournament between the Whitecaps, Impact and Toronto FC. That way you're assured of having decent enough attendance to cover the costs. Having amateur teams involved would only increase costs and drag down gate revenues.

You could then expand the tournament in future years.

This option sounds the most realistic. At least it would mean each team played four games in what you could almost describe as a mini-league. The games might even be scheduled to fit into pre-existing road trips in their respective leagues.

[redhat]

If you want to keep it even simplier, take the higher ranking USL team (Whitecaps or

Impact --- whichever has more points) and then play Toronto FC for the first Canadian

club championship. Future format expansion can be formulated later.

[themodelcitizen]

I thought that part of the Sutton transfer involved an assurance of a future friendly between the two clubs. Vancouver might object but this game could be a de facto Canadian championship -- the fans here can get a hold of the hosting club and talk about maybe presenting a Voyageurs trophy after the match. It'd be a start.