2024 CanPL attendance

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I've had this argument before, but the Marlies attendance is based more on "they're the Leafs farm team" than location/sport. When a different team (the Oilers, i think) had their farm team in the exact same building, attendance was much lower.

I feel like the Marlies do as well as they do because Leafs games are so expensive a lot of people are priced out of going to games. Marlies are the attainable hockey ticket in town.

The way things are with York United are just so complicated to explain to someone. "It's a pro team, but it's not TFC and it's not even in the same pro league as TFC. Their name is York United and they play at York University's stadium, but they totally aren't the York University team. They just have that name because they were designed to be a York Region team but they've never played in York Region so they are kind of a Toronto team but their name still says York. Wanna come?" Sounds like you are trying to scam someone.

[Watchmen]

11 minutes ago, Kent said:

I feel like the Marlies do as well as they do because Leafs games are so expensive a lot of people are priced out of going to games. Marlies are the attainable hockey ticket in town.

Yes, but that was the case with the Roadrunners (I looked it up) too. It was cheaper, but attendance still wasn't what it is now. Abbotsford (with the Canucks) now draws better than it did with the Flames, despite the arena being in a terrible location. That affiliation for minor league/lower division teams matters in the bigger markets.

[Kent]

Updated graph of the week to week, year over year attendance averages.

Because of my lazy style of "A week isn't a week on the calendar, it's the next 4 game chunk" there is still one more game to go for last "week", and it's York United hosting Valour on Friday. That almost certainly will lower the week 4 average for 2024. That should make it the first week in 2024 that is below the 2022 line, and the 3rd time in 4 weeks that it is behind 2023. Of course in an alternate reality where York United beats Forge in the Voyageurs Cup, Forge would have had a huge turnout for a week 4 game and it would have resulted in the biggest average attendance for a week since I started graphing these numbers (not counting the "weeks" that only consist of the final).

[Kent]

I just whipped up this chart, and put it in a game thread. Maybe it doesn't quite belong here, but it's about attendance so similar people are likely interested in this as in this thread. The chart is compiled from the CPL era (2019 to present) of the Voyageurs Cup.

OK fine, one more Voyageurs Cup attendance table for your pleasure.

[Kingston]

Here is a table going back to the beginning (sorry about the formatting):

Year	Total Attendance	Games	Average
2008	70882	6	11814
2009	73549	6	12258
2010	67561	6	11260
2011	82463	6	13744
2012	75789	6	12632
2013	73903	6	12317
2014	91937	8	11492
2015	88844	8	11106
2016	114360	8	14295
2017	101856	8	12732
2018	96250	10	9625
2019	156268	24	6511
2020	13715	1	13715
2021	44713	12	3726
2022	88423	12	7369
2023	80165	13	6167

[Kent]

9 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Here is a table going back to the beginning (sorry about the formatting):

Year	Total Attendance	Games	Average
2008	70882	6	11814
2009	73549	6	12258
2010	67561	6	11260
2011	82463	6	13744
2012	75789	6	12632
2013	73903	6	12317
2014	91937	8	11492
2015	88844	8	11106
2016	114360	8	14295
2017	101856	8	12732
2018	96250	10	9625
2019	156268	24	6511
2020	13715	1	13715
2021	44713	12	3726
2022	88423	12	7369
2023	80165	13	6167

Hmm, your numbers don't line up with mine. I'm grabbing mine from Wikipedia. I copied out each game and then calculated the averages myself, but just checked Wikipedia's summary and their averages line up with mine. So I don't think I calculated or copied out the numbers wrong. Do you have a different source you are using?

[Kingston]

7 minutes ago, Kent said:

Hmm, your numbers don't line up with mine. I'm grabbing mine from Wikipedia. I copied out each game and then calculated the averages myself, but just checked Wikipedia's summary and their averages line up with mine. So I don't think I calculated or copied out the numbers wrong. Do you have a different source you are using?

I pulled mine from different sources over the years.  I tried to use official game reports from the MLS or CPL websites first.  If those didn't list attendance, I used published reports when I could.  After that, whatever I could find.

[shermanator]

Attendance for York vs Valour; 1049

[shermanator]

 

 

[phil03]

NGL, the attendance do worry me a bit, in a ''the league is going to the ditch'' way mind you but definitely in a ''we need to figure out what's going on and rectify course'' way. Basically, slow progress is fine as long as there is indeed progress but we are, in many ways, seeing the opposite

Forge was the second club to get over the magical 5K bar and now they are set to fall below it again (their average is still above it but its progressively going down as the statistical importance of their home opener is further diluted) and ATO, who was almost there last year, is also taking a step back. Much of Cavalry's great strides, which gave me hope we could have four clubs above the bar this year, seem to have disappeared and Pacific is once going in the wrong direction too...

I suppose its not all bad news, as three clubs do still do better but IMO only VFC is truly a meaningful good news for the league here. HFX was and is still going great while York is only somewhat less disastrous then last year...

Lets not draw hasty conclusions, as this Spring has been pretty miserable weather wise at their is still time to make up lost ground, but it is worrisome IMO... In Ottawa ATO does not have near the presence in the public space as I'd like them to have and from comments of others I gather other clubs are in the same situation so, in spite of the financial situation, it might be worth it for the owners to at least think of pulling all the spots and rolling the dices on a big ad campaign... 

[Mihairokov]

16 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Forge was the second club to get over the magical 5K bar and now they are set to fall below it again (their average is still above it but its progressively going down as the statistical importance of their home opener is further diluted)

Forge have only hosted two league matches so far and their average is similar to last year's through two matches despite also hosting a CCL match in February (11K). I will call the two CC matches each season a wash but need to mention the 14K for the one CC match lest I get burned at the stake for not mentioning it.

 

19 minutes ago, phil03 said:

ATO, who was almost there last year, is also taking a step back.

ATO through three league matches are down roughly ~400 compared to the same point last year but hosted two CC matches compared to none last year. Adding those two additional matches brings the total crowd out to being identical to last season.

 

20 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Much of Cavalry's great strides, which gave me hope we could have four clubs above the bar this year, seem to have disappeared

Similar to Ottawa, Cavalry have hosted two additional CC matches this season which they did not host last season, including getting 4K+ out against Whitecaps.

 

25 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Pacific is once going in the wrong direction too...

Pacific admittedly are noticeably a bit lower, but their first two league matches averaged out to the same as last season's which had a VFC bump for their first match in Victoria. This season's CC match against TSS outdrew last season's equivalent against Cavalry (2,161 v 2,099).

I think it's a bit premature to assume teams are going to be declining compared to last season midway through May.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

NGL, the attendance do worry me a bit, in a ''the league is going to the ditch'' way mind you but definitely in a ''we need to figure out what's going on and rectify course'' way. Basically, slow progress is fine as long as there is indeed progress but we are, in many ways, seeing the opposite

Forge was the second club to get over the magical 5K bar and now they are set to fall below it again (their average is still above it but its progressively going down as the statistical importance of their home opener is further diluted) and ATO, who was almost there last year, is also taking a step back. Much of Cavalry's great strides, which gave me hope we could have four clubs above the bar this year, seem to have disappeared and Pacific is once going in the wrong direction too...

I suppose its not all bad news, as three clubs do still do better but IMO only VFC is truly a meaningful good news for the league here. HFX was and is still going great while York is only somewhat less disastrous then last year...

Lets not draw hasty conclusions, as this Spring has been pretty miserable weather wise at their is still time to make up lost ground, but it is worrisome IMO... In Ottawa ATO does not have near the presence in the public space as I'd like them to have and from comments of others I gather other clubs are in the same situation so, in spite of the financial situation, it might be worth it for the owners to at least think of pulling all the spots and rolling the dices on a big ad campaign... 

What's the financial situation?

[Kingston]

8 hours ago, phil03 said:

NGL, the attendance do worry me a bit, in a ''the league is going to the ditch'' way mind you but definitely in a ''we need to figure out what's going on and rectify course'' way. Basically, slow progress is fine as long as there is indeed progress but we are, in many ways, seeing the opposite

I think it's early to say we're seeing the opposite.  I am a bit disappointed not to see stronger starts in, especially, Calgary and Ottawa.  I was hoping they'd both come out of the gate continuing to build on the advances of last year.

Overall I guess it's just a slower march to sustainability for the clubs than I'd hoped for.

At this point, the only club that I have faint alarm bells ringing for is Valour.  Their attendance is poor, they're in yet another year of horrible results on the field, and their ownership group is not deep pocketed like some of the others.

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

At this point, the only club that I have faint alarm bells ringing for is Valour.  Their attendance is poor, they're in yet another year of horrible results on the field, and their ownership group is not deep pocketed like some of the others.

The commitment of the ownership should be questioned and obviously the team that Dos Santos has been allowed to build is terrible (and their injury situation the last two seasons and especially to start this one is remarkable).

The attendance, considering those factors, hasn't been all that bad, in my opinion. Essentially the same over the last few seasons as Pacific, who have been a successul team.

[Kingston]

5 minutes ago, jonovision said:

The attendance, considering those factors, hasn't been all that bad, in my opinion. Essentially the same over the last few seasons as Pacific, who have been a successul team.

The same as Pacific but from a drawing area that is twice the size.

The other thing is that what matters is drawing an economically sustainable crowd of around 5000.  We can agree that perhaps they aren't doing too badly considering whatever factors we want to consider but, at the end of the day, the bottom line is what counts.  

[jonovision]

9 minutes ago, Kingston said:

The same as Pacific but from a drawing area that is twice the size.

The other thing is that what matters is drawing an economically sustainable crowd of around 5000.  We can agree that perhaps they aren't doing too badly considering whatever factors we want to consider but, at the end of the day, the bottom line is what counts.  

If you're going to judge attendances relative to populations within driving distance, then Calgary and Ottawa and Hamilton all of a sudden don't look all that good either. Compared to some other CPL cities, Winnipeg also has more competition for its summer sports dollar, with both the highest-drawing CFL and CEBL teams also playing in town.

But you're right: any way you slice it, you need bums in seats to make money. Not enough of the teams are there yet.

Edited Wednesday at 01:33 PM by jonovision

[shermanator]

Put aside York, Vancouver and Valour for a minute. There have been some disappointing attendances to start the season for the other clubs. Ottawa, Forge, Cavalry and Pacific have all crowds which are lower than they should be. Even Halifax' 5500 is disappointing by their standards. Early days and by no means a reason to panic, but disappointing nonetheless

What I'm noticing with Cavalry is the fan zone in the top 5 rows of 104, 105 and 106 aren't selling, when in past years they would be sold out every game. This despite the price not having changed and parking being free now.

Most games this year have had people justifying a crowd size with various reasons. Poor weather, good weather, time of the game, stadium location, poor marketing, CSB, too many home games at once, etc. There's always a reason for people to stay away.

At some point people have to give a shit about these clubs for them to succeed and it seems it's been a step back this year.

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, shermanator said:

Put aside York, Vancouver and Valour for a minute. There have been some disappointing attendances to start the season for the other clubs. Ottawa, Forge, Cavalry and Pacific have all crowds which are lower than they should be. Even Halifax' 5500 is disappointing by their standards. Early days and by no means a reason to panic, but disappointing nonetheless

What I'm noticing with Cavalry is the fan zone in the top 5 rows of 104, 105 and 106 aren't selling, when in past years they would be sold out every game. This despite the price not having changed and parking being free now.

Most games this year have had people justifying a crowd size with various reasons. Poor weather, good weather, time of the game, stadium location, poor marketing, CSB, too many home games at once, etc. There's always a reason for people to stay away.

At some point people have to give a shit about these clubs for them to succeed and it seems it's been a step back this year.

The novelty factor of having a club starts to wear off. On field results start to matter more.

[Mihairokov]

I don't know, I think it seems pretty obvious that league match crowds will be affected if you suddenly push in two cup matches into the same time frame.

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, Mihairokov said:

I don't know, I think it seems pretty obvious that league match crowds will be affected if you suddenly push in two cup matches into the same time frame.

This is what I mean though. It's almost every game where people are making excuses as to why more people aren't in the stands.

Maybe the real issue is that not enough people care about the sport in this money to pick up the slack when someone has a valid excuse not to go to the game....

[Mihairokov]

11 minutes ago, shermanator said:

This is what I mean though. It's almost every game where people are making excuses as to why more people aren't in the stands.

Maybe the real issue is that not enough people care about the sport in this money to pick up the slack when someone has a valid excuse not to go to the game....

Sure,but I think more supply (matches) is a more valid "excuse" than bad weather or people not wanting to drive. In this instance it's possible to reason that the tickets which should have been sold for two leagues matches were instead spread over four matches. For casuals it's a lot easier to convince them to go to two matches in a month compared to four.

Again, it's possible there are a lot of other mitigating factors, but I don't see the need to get all doom-and-gloom when we're mid-way through May. Lots of season left to play.

[Aird25]

20 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

Sure,but I think more supply (matches) is a more valid "excuse" than bad weather or people not wanting to drive.

It definitely makes a difference in Victoria. There's a noticeable change in attendance when we have a bunch of games lumped together compared to reasonably spaced out games. Day of the week and time of the match are also important, but the club seems to fight against this for some reason.

[CDNFootballer]

With Vancouver FC, I'm happy with the start so far. Expected them to drop a bit from last year as the novelty wore off, but the turnouts for the first three games has been alright. Haven't noticed any increased marketing except for a newspaper ad for the home opener in the local Langley paper (should have been in the surrounding areas local papers as well, and for each game). No increased outreach either apparently. Your not going to significantly increase the base without more marketing $ being spent.

Also, they have dropped the cheap food they had highlighted for each game last year ($4 hot dogs and grill cheese), and no cheap beer night yet (which was the 3rd best attendance wise last year with $5 cans and made for a louder and better atmosphere in my section as consumption was continuous thru the game). Not even for the introduction of their "Pitchside Pilsner" was there a promo (tall boys that are $11.50 each).