TFC 2018-2019 Off-season

[Gian-Luca]

3 hours ago, Rocket Robin said:

Still TFC has more American nationals than Canadians.  

A big reason for more Canadian minutes last year was TFC had to use almost a split squad playing weekends in MLS and Wednesdays in CCL for so long.  

Listen to who answers first my question around the 36 minute mark at the TFC fan forum before their game against Vancouver....  I asked that more GAM and TAM (which had recently been announced a few weeks before this October 6th game) was pushing the Canadian players further down the list--down to one starter--Osorio.  It was Gareth Wheeler who was the MC.   

http://www.rocketrobinsoccerintoronto.com/reports18/18tfc045.htm   

Not Bill Manning nor Tim B--(Tim B who over the years was very supportive and convinced me that the results of TFC II in USL were unimportant in the long term for developing players that I truly bought in).   Their answer was building up the Academy. (although I've been hearing that since 2008).  

It was Canadian Wheeler cutting me off with "Do you want to win or do you want to see Canadians play?"  Wheeler is the voice of TFC II on their broadcasts so nice pissing on 90% young Canadians on that team.  I'm sure he'll still be there accepting a paycheque this season.  

I figures BBTN would 'like' your post.  I've always found him pro-American.  I don't want to look back in the archives three years ago when he was able to solve Canada's soccer problems by saying that we should just have more Canadian USL teams with a strict minimum of (two?) starters on each team.  "We don't need a Canadian league!"  

I bet the first rain storm that limits a CPL crowd to less than 3000 BBTB will scream "failure' and 'the novelty has worn off'.    

For me in 2019, I'm all in for York 9 (that's instead of TFC after 12 years of never missing a game including some replays played the next day) but hope to still have time to hit 50+ League 1 Ontario matches (that's supplying more than half the York 9 and Forge rosters so far) and TFC II again with their almost all Canadian lineup.    

 

I'm not sure what the wild ad hominen attacks on BBTB are in aid of, but the suggestion that he liked my post because you think he's "pro-American" would suggest in turn that my post is somehow "pro-American", which it isn't and which I'm not. Whereas its pretty obvious from the two answers I've received to my question is that what's at the heart of these complaints about the number of Canadians at TFC isn't so much borne out of love of Canada but contempt for the US. Well, you are welcome to that. I shall be supporting TFC and the entire CPL, a league which I'm aware was unlikely to even come to fruition if it wasn't for MLS helping to raise the profile of domestic soccer in Canada. With the exception of the Canadian Championship (another competition which MLS helped to foster & raise the profile of after this group of fans got it going), it's not an either/or win/lose scenario between MLS and the CPL (or even Ottawa in the USL, as annoying as their refusal to join the CPL was). There's nothing stopping someone from supporting Canadian players in both leagues & hoping that teams in both leagues do well. If the MLS teams continue to thrive and the CPL can sustain itself, we will have a win-win situation on our hands, particularly as no club will expect to be able to house all of its academy/developmental team players in its first team, which is also apparent when you see how many ex-MLS academy players are signing for CPL clubs.

The excuse that TFC only plays Canadians because they play so many matches doesn't cut it - playing a lot of games is what good clubs do. If you want a comparison, compare the number of minutes Montreal gave to Canadian players when they went to the CCL final in 2015 - I seem to recall Bernier came off the bench late in one or two games and that was about it for their entire run, which is why I had so little interest in it at the time. Keep in mind I was one of the most outspoken critics of TFC on this forum in the Mo Johnston days when I felt they were giving Canadian players the shaft and signing crap foreigners who weren't any better than the Canadians they were turfing, so when I feel TFC isn't pulling it's weight on the Canadian front, I've no trouble in calling them out on it. But when I see them re-sign Jordan Hamilton against the wishes of Canadian supporters on this forum or give an opportunity to Richie Laryea while signing Okello to the first team, "TFC hates Canada" isn't the first thing that comes to mind.  But of course it wouldn't because these complaints are, as I've said, really about being anti-American, so no doubt if TFC replace Bradley, Altidore and Bono with three players from the Mongolian leagues (hey, as long as they aren't American) you'll be back on the bandwagon.

[Bison44]

I've seen this a few times now, who didnt want TFC to resign Hamilton, i dont remember seeing this?  I guess maybe someone who wanted to see him get more playing time with a new club?  

[Gian-Luca]

23 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I've seen this a few times now, who didnt want TFC to resign Hamilton, i dont remember seeing this?  I guess maybe someone who wanted to see him get more playing time with a new club?  

On this board it was more of the case that some people wanted to see him sign for a CPL club, so I'm sure getting more minutes was part of the thinking in at least some of those cases, if not all. In other social media places, it was because people felt they should just give up on him.

Not saying everyone, I'm just saying there was a lot of that sentiment out there, enough that I believe Hamilton himself noticed it as in the COYR podcast released after his signing he was interviewed on it and said one of his motivations for this season was to prove people him wrong. And by people I don't think he was referring to the guys who re-signed him. It's not the sort of thing I recall him saying in previous years, where there was a lot more love for him in the social media-verse

[Bison44]

I listened to that same COYR and you cant really be honest about who is motivating you right after you got resigned eh?  Not sure how much these guys care about what the social media verse has to say.  I was thinking more about the times he got sent down or left off the 18 last year when strikers were injured and we all scratched our heads.  I am sure he wants to prove to the coaching staff he deserves more minutes and wont want to go down to USL-light after killing it in USL last season.  I guess its all a moot point if TFC sign a big time striker and keep him Hamilton stapled to the bench.  

[Mikmacdo]

I know preseason results dont matter but TFC lost 5-1 to Vegas yesterday in a split squad matchup. They signed a bunch of players from TFC 2 last year and they were horrible, I hope they did this just to not lose the players to CPL teams and have no intention of actually playing guys like Fraser, Okello, Peruzza. I hope the plan is to loan them out and fill on the roster with some veterans who can actually play at the MLS level. 

[Gian-Luca]

18 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I know preseason results dont matter but TFC lost 5-1 to Vegas yesterday in a split squad matchup. They signed a bunch of players from TFC 2 last year and they were horrible, I hope they did this just to not lose the players to CPL teams and have no intention of actually playing guys like Fraser, Okello, Peruzza. I hope the plan is to loan them out and fill on the roster with some veterans who can actually play at the MLS level. 

Here's the line-up that TFC fielded - they were supposed to have a 2nd match later in the day against a J-League team but it was cancelled due to overwhelming rain, presumably that would have featured more first choice players.

Toronto FC lineup: Alex Bono -- Auro Jr. (Jayden Nelson 77'), Chris Mavinga, Laurent Ciman, Luca Petrasso -- Liam Fraser, Noble Okello (Richie Laryea 46'), Jay Chapman, Nick DeLeon (Tsubasa Endoh 62'), Ryan Telfer -- Jordan Perruzza (Jordan Hamilton 62')

Vanney overall ripped the performance for a lack of intensity saying the team treated it like a pre-season match but LV took the game seriously and having just watched the highlights of the 5 Las Vegas goals (the TFC goal scored by Telfer on a pass from Chapman apparently), I can see what he means. But none of Fraser, Okello or Peruzza look like they are to blame at all for the 5 goals, the mostly veteran/1st team back-line and Bono can all be given the goat-horns for all five goals against. Bono & Ciman look like they are sleepwalking out there (the first goal they combined to score on behalf of LV was absolutely brutal) and Auro didn't cover himself with glory. Not sure how the rest of the team played since we only got one-sided highlights of the LV goals, but certainly those show that you can't point the finger solely at the kids mentioned (Perruzza isn't even signed to the first team incidentally so he wouldn't even qualify as someone who was signed from TFC2 last year, Endoh & Okello are the only two in the above line-up who would qualify for that definition and combined they didn't play 90 minutes yesterday).

Vanney did have some positive comments towards 16 year old Jayden Nelson who featured late in the game at right back.

[Bison44]

6 hours ago, Mikmacdo said:

I know preseason results dont matter but TFC lost 5-1 to Vegas yesterday in a split squad matchup. They signed a bunch of players from TFC 2 last year and they were horrible, I hope they did this just to not lose the players to CPL teams and have no intention of actually playing guys like Fraser, Okello, Peruzza. I hope the plan is to loan them out and fill on the roster with some veterans who can actually play at the MLS level. 

This is the same Fraser who got into 10 games with TFC and played pretty well, Okello who is a one of the brighter prospects and Peruzza who scored a couple goals in the last 3-4 games for TFC2??  I'm glad your not the GM with TFC.  I hope Fraser gets more minutes and that Okello gets a shot as well.  Peruzza is still young enough he might get something out of USL light so I imagine he'll stay there.  

From the highlights it looks like with Bono and 3/4 of the opening day starters at the back, let a USL team rip them a new one.  If the team is acting like that and isnt up for the game you have to start looking at the coaches. Champions league is in 2 weeks??  I am getting a 2010-2012 sense of doom off the team.  

[Grandbloke]

17 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Whereas its pretty obvious from the two answers I've received to my question is that what's at the heart of these complaints about the number of Canadians at TFC isn't so much borne out of love of Canada but contempt for the US.

Not sure whether you're referring to me, but I'm not anti-American at all and I certainly don't have contempt for the United States. MLS has done a great deal to develop American soccer players but, in my opinion, that league's roster rules hinder the development of young Canadians from the 3 Canadian MLS academies. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I would like to see Americans count as internationals on the rosters of the 3 Canadian teams. If that were the case, those 3 teams would need to have 20 or so Canadians on their rosters, it would become even more important for those teams to develop their young Canadian talent, and that would contribute to improving the development of soccer in Canada.

[Mikmacdo]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

This is the same Fraser who got into 10 games with TFC and played pretty well, Okello who is a one of the brighter prospects and Peruzza who scored a couple goals in the last 3-4 games for TFC2??  I'm glad your not the GM with TFC.  I hope Fraser gets more minutes and that Okello gets a shot as well.  Peruzza is still young enough he might get something out of USL light so I imagine he'll stay there.  

From the highlights it looks like with Bono and 3/4 of the opening day starters at the back, let a USL team rip them a new one.  If the team is acting like that and isnt up for the game you have to start looking at the coaches. Champions league is in 2 weeks??  I am getting a 2010-2012 sense of doom off the team.  

I am just saying guys like Fraser and Okello should be playing not in the bench of a team trying to win it all. Sure Fraser played in ten games last year but the team sucked and so did TFC2. If you are trying to win a championship while also in champions league TFC needs better depth. Hopefully they bring in another 4 players at the minimum and it looks like they need a decent goalkeeper. 

[Bison44]

8 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I am just saying guys like Fraser and Okello should be playing not in the bench of a team trying to win it all. Sure Fraser played in ten games last year but the team sucked and so did TFC2. If you are trying to win a championship while also in champions league TFC needs better depth. Hopefully they bring in another 4 players at the minimum and it looks like they need a decent goalkeeper. 

Fraser probably spent more time with TFC than TFC2 so you are blaming him for both or just one of the bad seasons??  So you are you against homegrowns/acadmey kids?? When do you work in a teenager??  Only if they are Davies quality??  Fraser didnt play any worse than Bradley did at times, and who knows where the ceiling is for a guy like Okello. 

Of course they need guys, they lost  2 of their best offensive players plus 2 defenders in the last 2 weeks. Remember when managemnt was saying the roster was almost set a few weeks ago? Now they need major big splash signings ASAP and Vegas is hanging 5 goals on us. I think the exodus we've seen points to something rotten in the state of denmark.   

[1996]

On 2/2/2019 at 12:30 PM, Grandbloke said:

It would seem, unfortunately, that the number of Canadians on the team is not an issue with most Toronto FC fans. They love watching their foreign heros play in a foreign league.

And MLS roster rules don’t require the Canadian teams to dress ANY Canadians.

Just like it’s not an issue with all the Blue Jays fans all across Canada , you know all the Blue Jays fans in the Prairies that travel to Minnesota when the Toronto Blue Jays play in Minnesota or all the Blue Jays fans in western Canada that support the greatest city in the world Toronto my city when the Toronto Blue Jays play in Seattle and pack the baseball stadium in Seattle to support my city Toronto with hardly any Canadians , ya ! These fans don’t have an issue but I have to have a bloody issue with it , give me a fucken break !!!

[1996]

19 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I'm not sure what the wild ad hominen attacks on BBTB are in aid of, but the suggestion that he liked my post because you think he's "pro-American" would suggest in turn that my post is somehow "pro-American", which it isn't and which I'm not. Whereas its pretty obvious from the two answers I've received to my question is that what's at the heart of these complaints about the number of Canadians at TFC isn't so much borne out of love of Canada but contempt for the US. Well, you are welcome to that. I shall be supporting TFC and the entire CPL, a league which I'm aware was unlikely to even come to fruition if it wasn't for MLS helping to raise the profile of domestic soccer in Canada. With the exception of the Canadian Championship (another competition which MLS helped to foster & raise the profile of after this group of fans got it going), it's not an either/or win/lose scenario between MLS and the CPL (or even Ottawa in the USL, as annoying as their refusal to join the CPL was). There's nothing stopping someone from supporting Canadian players in both leagues & hoping that teams in both leagues do well. If the MLS teams continue to thrive and the CPL can sustain itself, we will have a win-win situation on our hands, particularly as no club will expect to be able to house all of its academy/developmental team players in its first team, which is also apparent when you see how many ex-MLS academy players are signing for CPL clubs.

The excuse that TFC only plays Canadians because they play so many matches doesn't cut it - playing a lot of games is what good clubs do. If you want a comparison, compare the number of minutes Montreal gave to Canadian players when they went to the CCL final in 2015 - I seem to recall Bernier came off the bench late in one or two games and that was about it for their entire run, which is why I had so little interest in it at the time. Keep in mind I was one of the most outspoken critics of TFC on this forum in the Mo Johnston days when I felt they were giving Canadian players the shaft and signing crap foreigners who weren't any better than the Canadians they were turfing, so when I feel TFC isn't pulling it's weight on the Canadian front, I've no trouble in calling them out on it. But when I see them re-sign Jordan Hamilton against the wishes of Canadian supporters on this forum or give an opportunity to Richie Laryea while signing Okello to the first team, "TFC hates Canada" isn't the first thing that comes to mind.  But of course it wouldn't because these complaints are, as I've said, really about being anti-American, so no doubt if TFC replace Bradley, Altidore and Bono with three players from the Mongolian leagues (hey, as long as they aren't American) you'll be back on the bandwagon.

Thank you thank you and thank you again my brother could not have said it better myself.

[Mikmacdo]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Fraser probably spent more time with TFC than TFC2 so you are blaming him for both or just one of the bad seasons??  So you are you against homegrowns/acadmey kids?? When do you work in a teenager??  Only if they are Davies quality??  Fraser didnt play any worse than Bradley did at times, and who knows where the ceiling is for a guy like Okello. 

Of course they need guys, they lost  2 of their best offensive players plus 2 defenders in the last 2 weeks. Remember when managemnt was saying the roster was almost set a few weeks ago? Now they need major big splash signings ASAP and Vegas is hanging 5 goals on us. I think the exodus we've seen points to something rotten in the state of denmark.   

Telfer was the only guy who showed me something out of all the younger guys /tfc2 players. I honestly think he should have played/started a lot more than he did and if off to a good start in preseason. I dont care about the academy or where players come from. Telfer went to York U and so did Kaye so maybe TFC should be looking more at U sport athletes. 

[Grandbloke]

15 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Telfer went to York U and so did Kaye so maybe TFC should be looking more at U sport athletes. 

CanPL teams are signing some U Sports players. Will be interesting to see how those players do.

[Obinna]

41 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Telfer was the only guy who showed me something out of all the younger guys /tfc2 players. I honestly think he should have played/started a lot more than he did and if off to a good start in preseason. I dont care about the academy or where players come from. Telfer went to York U and so did Kaye so maybe TFC should be looking more at U sport athletes. 

Telfer was definitely the most impressive out of that group of players, but he's also 24 years old - so no surprise. 

I agree with Bison on this one - you need to work in your youth players at some point in order to have sustained success. It's a catch 22, because if you don't give young players a chance today, you won't see how good they can be tomorrow. 

I do get your point - the depth needs to be strong in order to compete on multiple fronts, but you need to find the right balance as well. That means you sometimes need a few young promising talented players in the squad who are happy with limited minutes.

Jay Chapman comes to mind as a great example. Today he is an important depth player who can start whenever needed, but where would he be without Toronto slowly working him in? Who knows!

They have talked about sending young players on loan though, so we'll see if you get your wish.

[Mikmacdo]

I think TFC is waiting until they sign the DP to announce the signings of Boyd, Hanni an d loan of Menendez. Hopefully by the end of the week we will know, its starting to drive me crazy. I hope the DP is more of a winger to compliment Jozy (if hes staying). 

 

[Obinna]

25 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I think TFC is waiting until they sign the DP to announce the signings of Boyd, Hanni an d loan of Menendez. Hopefully by the end of the week we will know, its starting to drive me crazy. I hope the DP is more of a winger to compliment Jozy (if hes staying). 

 

I think that's a good strategy - announce the DP first and the TAM/GAM signings thereafter.

I'm itching to what DP they'll bring in as well. What we know is:

- offensive player

- in his prime

- recognizable name

- transfer fee to be amongst league highest

 

NYCFC bought the 23 year old Romanian international for 8 million euros. Apparently that's the highest fee paid by a team that's not Atlanta. Even if Toronto paid double that, what attacker in their prime that is a recognizable name would be incoming for £16M? 

[Mikmacdo]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

I think that's a good strategy - announce the DP first and the TAM/GAM signings thereafter.

I'm itching to what DP they'll bring in as well. What we know is:

- offensive player

- in his prime

- recognizable name

- transfer fee to be amongst league highest

 

NYCFC bought the 23 year old Romanian international for 8 million euros. Apparently that's the highest fee paid by a team that's not Atlanta. Even if Toronto paid double that, what attacker in their prime that is a recognizable name would be incoming for £16M? 

Recognizable to who though? Maybe they are talking about a South American team an the player is a bigger name there. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Mikmacdo said:

Recognizable to who though? Maybe they are talking about a South American team an the player is a bigger name there. 

Well that's the million dollar question, right? 

Presumably Manning meant the player would be recognizable to the average soccer fan in the Toronto market, so to me that says Europe. But as we know, teams must pay a premium for European players, especially those in their prime with name recognition. The Romanian NYCFC just bought, for example, almost cost $10M, and I have never heard of the player. How much would Toronto have to pay for someone the casual recognizes?

The other possibility, as you say, would be that the player in question in South America based. The financials make more sense, but the name recognition thing doesn't. SA players are pretty unknown, I imagine, to the average Torontonian soccer fan, who probably watches more of Europe. I know there are exceptions, but...

Either way, I can't wait until the players come in and the team is settled.

[Mikmacdo]

32 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Well that's the million dollar question, right? 

Presumably Manning meant the player would be recognizable to the average soccer fan in the Toronto market, so to me that says Europe. But as we know, teams must pay a premium for European players, especially those in their prime with name recognition. The Romanian NYCFC just bought, for example, almost cost $10M, and I have never heard of the player. How much would Toronto have to pay for someone the casual recognizes?

The other possibility, as you say, would be that the player in question in South America based. The financials make more sense, but the name recognition thing doesn't. SA players are pretty unknown, I imagine, to the average Torontonian soccer fan, who probably watches more of Europe. I know there are exceptions, but...

Either way, I can't wait until the players come in and the team is settled.

Maybe its just where I live in the city but there are a lot of Brazilians here. That is what I am hoping for, a young player from Europe from a big team would cost way too much and why would they want to come here? Doesn’t seem likely. Solanke from liverpool sold for like 20 euros which is insane he was totally unproven. 

[Mikmacdo]

What about Mario Balotelli as a replacement for Giovinco?

Hes only 28 and I think his contract is up in the summer. 

[AvroArrow]

5 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

What about Mario Balotelli as a replacement for Giovinco?

Hes only 28 and I think his contract is up in the summer. 

He does like the pyro, so that would make a lot of the TFC supporters groups happy.

[Obinna]

46 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

What about Mario Balotelli as a replacement for Giovinco?

Hes only 28 and I think his contract is up in the summer. 

I think he's out on loan at Marseille. Nice would have to break that loan, which they literally just made, so I don't see it. Maybe for a summer transfer it's possible.

[Gian-Luca]

If Vanney vowed to ensure that there were no distractions in the locker room this season following Van Der Wiel, I'm not sure that Mario Balotelli is the guy that I would have in mind to keep that vow in place........

Although he would have been perfect alongside Giovinco, they played together up front for the Italian U21 (ie. U23) team in the Euros to good effect (nearly 10 years ago now), though rarely did (if ever) for the full national team.

[maccaliam]

I’ve see Bojan Krkic linked with a move to MLS. He may not be a household name, but the clubs he has played for certainly are. 

I think he’s just denied going anywhere, but  his profile does fit the description.