Canadian Premier League

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

On 7/16/2016 at 6:31 PM, Gopherbashi said:

Edmonton "Fury" (with the FCE logo)

seems legit

 

With regards to FCE becoming sustainable, part of me feels like the general public doesn't take NASL seriously.  Its a catch 22 but I guarantee the attendance would at least double if they were an MLS squad.  But obviously that will never happen until the attendance doubles.

[jedinathan]

16 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

seems legit

 

With regards to FCE becoming sustainable, part of me feels like the general public doesn't take NASL seriously.  Its a catch 22 but I guarantee the attendance would at least double if they were an MLS squad.  But obviously that will never happen until the attendance doubles.

hahaha can you imagine an MLS team with only 5000 people there?

I think the general public doesn't know that FCEd still exists, or plays at the level they do. 2011 really hurt FCEd as they spent so much on promotion and but with players that were JUST this side of better than a lot of local guys.

I think there's some potential for 2017 right now, as I think the club has consistently rebuilt its fan base year after year (very poor retention of season ticket holders etc). Ya I'm an optimist, but I do think that FCEd could be big here.

[TRM]

4 hours ago, jedinathan said:

hahaha can you imagine an MLS team with only 5000 people there?

 

You mean like Chivas? 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

8 hours ago, jedinathan said:

hahaha can you imagine an MLS team with only 5000 people there?

I think the general public doesn't know that FCEd still exists, or plays at the level they do. 2011 really hurt FCEd as they spent so much on promotion and but with players that were JUST this side of better than a lot of local guys.

I think there's some potential for 2017 right now, as I think the club has consistently rebuilt its fan base year after year (very poor retention of season ticket holders etc). Ya I'm an optimist, but I do think that FCEd could be big here.

Yeah.  It took me a while to hear about it, and I'm into soccer, although I wasn't really looking at the time.  But hey, City of Champions right?  Watch how quickly it'll change if they win a championship... 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

20 hours ago, jedinathan said:

hahaha can you imagine an MLS team with only 5000 people there?

Back in 2007 when TFC first entered the league, I made three trips to away games and was very much of the impression that in NY and Columbus there were under 5000 in attendance. Don't believe the announced numbers you see, they are sometimes massively inflated and even when the numbers are close to legit in terms of spectators watching the game in the stadium there can be lots of freebies and comps involved.

Since then, MLS has figured out how to get 15,000 to 20,000 paying customers along to most games and that's why there are lots of expansion groups clamouring to get in. The NASL in most cities is still very much on the learning curve, but there are some genuine success stories now at NASL/USL level that suggest that D2 level soccer with air travel can eventually be made to be financially sustainable.

It would be nice to think that an eight team CPL could get there quickly and not go through ten to fifteen years of heavy financial losses, but the past precedents for it outside the three main MLS markets in Canada are not good. If Salt Lake City and Columbus can make MLS work, why not Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa, if a billionaire could be found to write the cheques for the expansion fee and stadium?

Think the Faths are right that they could do a lot better with pro soccer in Edmonton in an SSS, but it sounds like they lack the wealth to make it happen by themselves and that would probably be the big issue with the CPL. There wouldn't be enough investor groups with the wealth and patience to hang in there until it starts to gain traction.

[Kurt-MTL]

20 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/07/17/fc-edmonton-competitive-on-the-pitch-but-dont-have-the-pitch-to-compete-in-the-nasl

Worrisome article; anyone think the Oilers or Eskies ownership groups might approach the Faths about buying them out IF the CPL is a go and IF the presumed big-money backers behind it are in fact the CFL/NHL owners?? 

[Complete Homer]

2 hours ago, Kurt-MTL said:

Worrisome article; anyone think the Oilers or Eskies ownership groups might approach the Faths about buying them out IF the CPL is a go and IF the presumed big-money backers behind it are in fact the CFL/NHL owners?? 

Honestly, of all "big" markets, Edmonton has got to be the toughest. Freezing at the beginning of the season, poor facilities, no natural rival to hype (Ottawa vs Edmonton just doesn't have much fire).

I'd hope they would consider a move to CPL, if it comes around, before folding. I imaging a cheaper travel schedule and actual rivals to market would help a great deal. Maybe not 9000 right away, but enough improvement to see a possibility of break-even in the future

[jedinathan]

5 hours ago, Kurt-MTL said:

Worrisome article; anyone think the Oilers or Eskies ownership groups might approach the Faths about buying them out IF the CPL is a go and IF the presumed big-money backers behind it are in fact the CFL/NHL owners?? 

Eskimos aren't interested in it. Its a group owned (City involved?) team, so they'd have a hard time justifying it. That and they are more interested in working WITH FCEd rather than against, or taking over. Regardless of CPL.

As for Katz... rumours have abounded for years with Katz buying out Fath. Without breaking too much trust, I know that there was interest, and potentially an offer, but there were conditions that the Faths just didn't/couldn't go along with. So that's a no go too.

[-Hammer-]

21 minutes ago, jedinathan said:

Eskimos aren't interested in it. Its a group owned (City involved?) team, so they'd have a hard time justifying it. That and they are more interested in working WITH FCEd rather than against, or taking over. Regardless of CPL.

As for Katz... rumours have abounded for years with Katz buying out Fath. Without breaking too much trust, I know that there was interest, and potentially an offer, but there were conditions that the Faths just didn't/couldn't go along with. So that's a no go too.

The Eskimos are community owned. From my understanding their ownership model is that they are a shareholder model, but the city itself always keeps a majority stock. That said, it's not that different from other community owned teams. Typically what happens in these cases is that the organization, while owned by the city the team operations are handled by experienced reps who have long history in the league and how to operate a franchise, and make the day to day decisions on spending. They also tend to try to keep as much profit internalized as possible before paying up to the city (IE: Upgrading the stadium, investing in more aggressive then average marketing, building contingency funds and the like) and the city is usually fine with it, mainly because while cash flow is nice, the team is still an asset the city can leverage for tourism, on the books asset, local sports involvement, events and the like. It's no stretch that a comparatively lower cost CPL franchise, becoming one of those internalized costs and as an extension of the team.

Fundamentally though, they still have to answer to ownership on major items. In the Esks case, the city is generally inclined towards them as the Esks have been profitable for ages and the city doesn't know how to run a sports organization. That said, if the CPL is considered too high a risk vs reward, the city likely wouldn't go for it and Alberta's recession might indicate a desire for more cash flow.

[CDNFootballer]

On 7/11/2016 at 11:47 AM, dyslexic nam said:

I will apologize for the summary-level question, but I don't want to wade through 69 pages of text at the moment.

What is the current state of discussion on this league?  

Apparently the CPL business plan is being formalized and the CSA will vote/approve/endorse it at a meeting scheduled for September.

[baulderdash77]

Let's play a fun game- who will move to the CPL from abroad when if it started in 2017.  I realize that the majority of the Canadian spots are going to come from NASL, USL, L1O, PQSL & NCAA; but which players abroad do you think would come over too?

I'd guess that the following players would be part of the migration from abroad:  

Aleman, Haber, Jackson, Edwini-Bonsu, Hainault, Clarke, Stama, Jakovic, Nakajima-Farran, Occean, Thomas, Gasparotto,Hume, Piette, Fisk, Boakai.  

I tried to come up with 20, but couldn't when I considered level and contract situation.

*edit* as an aside if this group of players came over, the players abroad cupboard would be very bare outside of Canada and the US except for a small few exceptional talents for us.

What's your guess?

[Ruffian]

8 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

Aleman, Haber, Jackson, Edwini-Bonsu, Hainault, Clarke, Stama, Jakovic, Nakajima-Farran, Occean, Thomas, Gasparotto,Hume, Piette, Fisk, Boakai.  

I think many of the young payers on that list would not want to leave where they are, thinking more future opportunity would come from staying where they are. It may take some time for players to see the CPL as bringing future opportunity and not being a dead end just like it took a while for MLS and now NASL to be seen as a good move. Maybe some of the veterans will see it as a way to continue their playing careers and play in Canada.

[baulderdash77]

I think  you're right.  I'd divide the list into 3 groups of players who the CPL would benefit:

Young players seeking consistent playing time & exposure:

• Aleman, Clarke, Thomas, Gasparotto, Piette, Fisk, Boakai

Players 25-30 who's club situation is generally fairly week:

• Jackson, Edwini-Bonsu, Haber

Players 30+seeking to extend their career:

• Hainault, Stama, Jakovic, Nakajima-Farran, Occean, Hume

Any other suggestions of players?

[Pottsy3]

2 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I think  you're right.  I'd divide the list into 3 groups of players who the CPL would benefit:

Young players seeking consistent playing time & exposure:

• Aleman, Clarke, Thomas, Gasparotto, Piette, Fisk, Boakai

Players 25-30 who's club situation is generally fairly week:

• Jackson, Edwini-Bonsu, Haber

Players 30+seeking to extend their career:

• Hainault, Stama, Jakovic, Nakajima-Farran, Occean, Hume

Any other suggestions of players?

Chris Mannella as he likely will never be good enough for TFC, and will eventually be too old to be considered a prospect.

If Calum Ferguson does not shine in the Scottish Second Division and find a transfer to a better club I could see him moving over. 

If Ouimette is unable to break into an MLS side, he may prefer to come home as opposed to constant USL moves.

Manny Aparicio would be a good fit if he does not find a stable club situation in Europe. 

Charlie Trafford doesn't seem to be getting too many starts in Poland, so a North American move would not be all that surprising.

If Mallan Roberts doesn't get consistent playing time in Ottawa, he would be a possibility too.

Heck, Vitoria may need this as a fallback seeing his club situation is so inconsistent. 

I'm not completely sure where we're expecting for the level of play. I see the CPL as our solution to Unattached FC. (wouldn't that be something if a city named their team Unattached FC)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The CUSL had its business plan approved by the CSA, but never got anywhere because they couldn't put the investor groups together. 15 years back this is the sort of thing that was being discussed on this forum:

http://www.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=179007709&page_url=//www.teamtalk.com/teamtalk/Country_Archive_News/0,2541,206,00.html&page_last_updated=2001-07-31T06:34:06&firstName=Gerry&lastName=Gentile

Plus ça change...

[Dub Narcotic]

The USL is already filling the role for marginal Canadian players, it's hard to see what the CPL adds from that perspective.

[marauder01]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

The USL is already filling the role for marginal Canadian players, it's hard to see what the CPL adds from that perspective.

A higher level of play that puts Canadian players first. Not to mention the more teams that will play Canadians, the better.

[CDNFootballer]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The CUSL had its business plan approved by the CSA, but never got anywhere because they couldn't put the investor groups together. 15 years back this is the sort of thing that was being discussed on this forum:

http://www.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=179007709&page_url=//www.teamtalk.com/teamtalk/Country_Archive_News/0,2541,206,00.html&page_last_updated=2001-07-31T06:34:06&firstName=Gerry&lastName=Gentile

Plus ça change...

15 years ago was a much different time for the sport in Canada and North America.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Would agree with that in some ways, but the differences if anything actually made it easier to launch a Canadian pro league in logistical terms because the three MLS markets were still readily available. What hasn't changed is that people still talk about what they want to happen on a national pro league as if it is a racing certainty to emerge just over the horizon based on not much more than blind faith. The CSA and the people that pushed the CUSL the hardest didn't have the money to make it happen, while the people with the money ultimately decided that they preferred to stay in the USSF structure after there had been talk of a compromise similar to the Canadian division of the NASL that was discussed two to three years back. In the present day the pro teams in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and Edmonton are still adopting the posture that their predecessors did on this by not rushing eagerly towards CSA sanctioning and it's difficult to see how you put eight stable franchises together without them, so the CPL like the CUSL is likely to be DOA.

[marauder01]

Alright, I'm done with this thread until the league is announced. But when the press conference happens we should create two separate threads; one for the negative people to gripe about how the league wont succeed and a separate one for the positive people who want to discuss how to help make it a success.

See ya then.

[TRM]

14 hours ago, marauder01 said:

Alright, I'm done with this thread until the league is announced. But when the press conference happens we should create two separate threads; one for the negative people to gripe about how the league wont succeed and a separate one for the positive people who want to discuss how to help make it a success.

See ya then.

"when the press conference happens" - I like the way you think.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This snippet from Duane Rollins flew under the radar a bit back in February with people preferring to focus on what John McGrane had to say at the city council meeting in Canada, because it was their preferred ideal world option:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/solution-to-canadians-as-domestics-issue-coming-in-next-month-montagliani-r5546

... Montagliani was also asked about the Canadian Premier League project. He again confirmed that the CSA was talking to investors about creating an “inclusive solution” with current professional teams to create more professional opportunities in Canada. On note, he made reference to the possibility of those opportunities coming in “cross border leagues that we control.”

Outside of the earliest reporting on the CanPL where the possibility of a partnership with the NASL to create a “Canadian conference” was suggested, that was the first suggestion that anything other than a Canadian only option was being considered.

Even if an 8 franchise standalone CPL minus most or all of the existing pro teams is likely to be DOA, that hasn't been the only option that Victor Montagliani has made mention of publicly in recent times. A deal with the USL to create a Canadian branded division that included the three MLS reserve teams is one possible option that the two NASL teams could also potentially be persuaded to jump ship to. At that point you need three extra franchises to reach eight markets in the manner that cable broadcasters seem to view as important, with Hamilton already appearing to be likely to be available as the sixth.

[Pqhbv]

I'd much rather see a league forming independent of the USL teams for various reasons. I recognize the limitations of starting without the big three cities involved, yes, but I somehow think MLSE might be stopping the previously mentioned group in the GTA. In the scenario where they will not launch without those cities, I'd much prefer an NASL option of sorts as opposed to including the second teams of the MLS teams. 

Things to consider about including USL sides: Voyageurs Cup integration & expansion, scheduling and dates for the MLS second teams in the bigger venues, & perception of the league as a whole.

Things to consider about NASL relationship: Complications with the USSF standards and the NASL including Canadian teams, Domestic quotas/player spots, & scheduling/travel expenses. For example, will it be enough teams added to make a western and eastern conference within the whole NASL or will it be a distinct Canadian league with scheduled inter-league games? 

Of course, these above complications can be avoided if we do it -CPL- all ourselves and get all the geese in a row the first time. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Do you have the tens of millions of dollars required to subsidize what you much prefer until it becomes financially sustainable? Everbody understands why in an ideal world the CPL would be the way to go, but we don't live in an ideal world. Ultimately, the CSA should do what is best for Canadian soccer under the prevailing set of circumstances rather than perpetually chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I suspect Victor Montagliani will leave that to whoever succeeds him as CSA president now that he has the CONCACAF gig.

[Pqhbv]

7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Everbody understands why in an ideal world the CPL would be the way to go, but we don't live in an ideal world. Ultimately, the CSA should do what is best for Canadian soccer under the prevailing set of circumstances rather than perpetually chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. 

You're not peddling pragmatism here so much as pessimistic defeatism. Your same logic -if acted on- would have made the CFL non-existent, Canada would've mostly joined the States, and a world with no lucky charms cereal!

I am also tired of waiting and anxious for the CSA to do something concrete; hence the desperate post about the NASL possibility.

In an ideal world we would actually rip the band-aid off that USSF gave us and start over from scratch. Under the prevailing set of circumstances the CSA appears to have several options. Your proposed solution happens to be the one I find the least pragmatic and beneficial to our situation. In fact, I'd argue that it may even be harmful.