BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 The NHL sold out to the Yankee dollar back in the 1920s and that hasn't stopped hockey from being a core part of Canadian identity, so I disagree on the first bit. I don't think having national pro sports leagues is in any way pivotal to Canada's ongoing existence. For better or worse, I think you would agree based on the ideal world angle you are highlighting that the three MLS teams are clearly here to stay at this point. That means it is exceedingly unlikely that there is any way back from having teams in USSF sanctioned leagues as the dominant feature on the pro soccer landscape. My argument would be that having their three U-23 development sides as part of a Canadian branded D2 level structure would be the most likely way to get that to work for the development of Canadian players, in the absence of a soccer-friendly billionaire willing to do for the CPL concept what Phil Anschutz and Lamar Hunt did for MLS in ideal world terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: My argument would be that having their three U-23 development sides as part of a Canadian branded D2 level structure would be the most likely way to get that to work for the development of Canadian players, in the absence of a soccer-friendly billionaire willing to do for the CPL concept what Phil Anschutz and Lamar Hunt did for MLS in ideal world terms. Sorry, trying to figure out exactly what this means. Are you suggesting a CPL that includes the MLS farm teams? Or are you suggesting we add teams to USL to join the MLS2 teams? Or are you suggesting we put those teams (MLS2 teams and new teams) into NASL? I wonder what MLS would think about the Canadian teams effectively ignoring the partnership with USL to join NASL, if that is what you are proposing. I am also unclear on who the Anschutz/Hunt type of benevolent billionaire is that is funding NASL that makes it a better option. Obviously the development teams could be bankrolled by their existing ownership, but I am not so sure how that helps any teams that don't yet exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pqhbv Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 EDIT: @BringBackTheBlizzard I disagree, the second teams of the MLS sides work well where they are now. Keeping them there and building/expanding our own system would be the most beneficial. Our own regional D3 is expanding in central Canada and I think removing the USSF links will be good in the long run to developing our own system. The second teams as they are currently formatted will not add anything to the CPL product per se. Alternatively you could just add USL teams in all the cities mentioned for the CPL, the benefits of the USL remain and the CSA only loses out on having a league of its own to sanction. If your just suggesting this as opposed to some sort of CPL then I simply mis-understood you. I don't want to get into the merits of the NCAA vs CHL type argument for sports development. However, I do think for soccer we can have a parallel pro league and out own development path distinct from the USSF. That is what the CSA seems to be attempting to do and I support that effort. One day if the CPL comes to fruition we may see the CSA push for the 2nd teams to be removed from the USSF structure and the MLS teams being forced to disperse those players amongst the CPL. *NB there is some interesting work on the connection between sports and nationalism particular to Canada. Look up William George Beers, if your interested. The development of our own sports was something integral to forging our own identity that was neither British nor American: our government thought enough so about this topic as to actually commission someone to specifically do this, for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Kent said: Sorry, trying to figure out exactly what this means. Are you suggesting a CPL that includes the MLS farm teams?.... I am also unclear on who the Anschutz/Hunt type of benevolent billionaire is that is funding NASL that makes it a better option.... I'm suggesting that what Victor Montagliani has been hinting at in recent interviews is a Canadian branded division of the USL that would include the three MLS reserve teams. That's speculation on my part, but the NASL commissioner seems to be outside the loop based on recent quotes, so the USL seems to the more probable candidate at the moment for anything that is "cross-border" in scope. The CSA don't have the money to make the CPL happen, so ultimately it is the people with the money that will determine the directions things head in based on their willingness to invest. MLS only survived its first decade because Phil Anschutz and Lamar Hunt pumped in about $250 million to cover the losses. If somebody like Frank Stronach would do the same for the CPL concept then there would be a much better chance that it could get somewhere. That's a bit of a far-fetched scenario, however, so I suspect Victor Montagliani's recent quotes have been preparing the ground for something "cross-border" that is not so different from what is already in place now, because that's what the people with the money want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 5 hours ago, Pqhbv said: ...The development of our own sports was something integral to forging our own identity that was neither British nor American: our government thought enough so about this topic as to actually commission someone to specifically do this, for better or worse. There has been a sea change on that in the last 30 years. Can remember moving to Canada in the mid-80s and as my first introduction to Canadian society watching one of my cousin's sons playing a youth soccer game at the Croatian club out in the corn fields south of London, Ont. Only one Scottish dude (ancestrally) on the pitch playing for an otherwise Italian team against a Croatian team, because soccer at all levels was still largely about recent immigrants swimming against the tide and doing their own thing with assimilated Canadian kids playing baseball, football and hockey. Nowadays soccer participation is absolutely mainstream where the younger generations are concerned, because things have moved away from the cultural exceptionalism you are referring to, which tended to view our sport as an unCanadian activity to be discouraged and suppressed. Think the key nationalism angle for soccer is the national teams and as long as those are in place, the sport is still a viable vehicle for bolstering national identity. The CWNT seems to get pushed more than the CMNT on that at the moment, maybe because they win more of their games, but a World Cup qualification on the men's side would soon transform that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 On 7/23/2016 at 10:59 PM, Pqhbv said: I'd much rather see a league forming independent of the USL teams for various reasons. I recognize the limitations of starting without the big three cities involved, yes, but I somehow think MLSE might be stopping the previously mentioned group in the GTA. In what way do you think they might be stopping them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOutsider Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 8 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: I'm suggesting that what Victor Montagliani has been hinting at in recent interviews is a Canadian branded division of the USL that would include the three MLS reserve teams. Can you provide a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Already did, go back one page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 9 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: I'm suggesting that what Victor Montagliani has been hinting at in recent interviews is a Canadian branded division of the USL that would include the three MLS reserve teams. I suspect Victor Montagliani's recent quotes have been preparing the ground for something "cross-border" that is not so different from what is already in place now, because that's what the people with the money want to do. You could be right. I admit, when the rumors of the NASL Canadian division came out, it got me excited, but at this point I feel like if the CPL doesn't happen, then it might as well be a free for all on either NASL or USL. Just lift the ban on new Canadian clubs in those leagues and let the pieces fall where they may. Like you said, not so different from what we have in place now. USL would provide more flexibility than NASL. The number of teams already involved means it could still fulfill the much talked about 75% American team quota with more Canadian teams than NASL. Plus USL isn't afraid to let in smaller markets, which would be beneficial for Canada. The number of teams/conference structure also means travel costs can be cut compared to NASL. However, that is all still very uninspiring. I'm still going to wait patiently for CPL, and hope the investment money can be found. Until the CSA says it's dead in the water and they are letting new teams join American leagues, I'll be dreaming of the CPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 On 7/20/2016 at 9:02 PM, baulderdash77 said: Let's play a fun game- who will move to the CPL from abroad when if it started in 2017. I'd guess that the following players would be part of the migration from abroad: Aleman, Haber, Jackson, Edwini-Bonsu, Hainault, Clarke, Stama, Jakovic, Nakajima-Farran, Occean, Thomas, Gasparotto,Hume, Piette, Fisk, Boakai. I like Canadian soccer simcity and much as the next poster but the reality is that any Canadian league - indepedent or otherwise - is going to have zero draw for true upandcomers with a potential pro career ahead of them, or seasoned pros used to picking up even a middling paycheque. Those of us that can only dream of a pro career often underestimate the willingness of guys from countries with world-class economic opportunities to play for peanuts in the name of staying in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pqhbv Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Macksam said: In what way do you think they might be stopping them? Of course, this is in the realm of speculation. Assuming there was a group for the GTA -as per Rollins- looking to get into the CPL; MLSE could play interference by saying they want in. Disingenuous, maybe, cunning and non-culpable interference: sounds like MLSE to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 1 hour ago, Pqhbv said: Of course, this is in the realm of speculation. Assuming there was a group for the GTA -as per Rollins- looking to get into the CPL; MLSE could play interference by saying they want in. Disingenuous, maybe, cunning and non-culpable interference: sounds like MLSE to me. Lol, I can see that no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hammer- Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 On 7/25/2016 at 4:11 PM, Pqhbv said: Of course, this is in the realm of speculation. Assuming there was a group for the GTA -as per Rollins- looking to get into the CPL; MLSE could play interference by saying they want in. Disingenuous, maybe, cunning and non-culpable interference: sounds like MLSE to me. Especially since they seemed to have tried to already pull a similar scam with TFC2 (which was yet to even be in the USL) and Tim Horton's Field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 From what I remember MLSE had the OSA and CSA's backing on that when the proposal for the Hamilton Lynx team went to the city council. Another way of looking at things is that if it had been approved you would currently have a pro team playing at THF with a roster filled with young Canadian players in the same division as the Rochester Rhinos and the new Cincinnatti team that is drawing 20,000 to its home games rather than having no pro team. From a Hamilton standpoint I understand the sticking point on this is that Toronto should be the main hated rival (TiCats vs Argos in the CFL style) rather than the major league outfit to Hamilton's AAA operation, so the CPL is a lot more palatable than "cross-border" solutions to having more pro opportunities for Canadian players, but you need 7 other franchises on board to make it fly and that's not easy to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hammer- Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: From what I remember MLSE had the OSA and CSA's backing on that when the proposal for the Hamilton Lynx team went to the city council. Another way of looking at things is that if it had been approved you would currently have a pro team playing at THF with a roster filled with young Canadian players in the same division as the Rochester Rhinos and the new Cincinnatti team that is drawing 20,000 to its home games rather than having no pro team. From a Hamilton standpoint I understand the sticking point on this is that Toronto should be the main hated rival (TiCats vs Argos in the CFL style) rather than the major league outfit to Hamilton's AAA operation, so the CPL is a lot more palatable than "cross-border" solutions to having more pro opportunities for Canadian players, but you need 7 other franchises on board to make it fly and that's not easy to do. Then you would be wrong. MLSE hadn't even secured the authorization from the CSA to play in the USL at the time of the proposal, which was a major sticking point with the city council not going with them and sticking with Bob Young. It basically amounted to "Well...you don't really have a team either, and we know Bob Young and the Ti-Cats (as they've been fairly active in talking to local teams, coordinating times teams can play at THF) and we're concerned regarding your dedication to Hamilton grassroots given your base is in Toronto. We also find the details of your proposal sorely lacking, so for now, no dice until you clean up your proposal. It was an incredibly poor and transparent attempt to lock up soccer rights to THF to prevent a competing franchise from ever moving in because TFC fans understandably have been frustrated with their club and a NASL or CPL team could easily capitalize on that. The main sticking point though isn't just that such a team would have been Toronto's farm, it's that is a Farm in general. TFC2 can't even draw in Toronto which has 5 times the population of Hamilton, because why would anyone go watch TFC2 play when you could just go watch TFC? No, Hamiltonian outside the immediate family of a player is going to go out and buy a kit of a farm league player who could be called up at any moment. It barley worked with the AHL farm here, and hockey is our national sport. Hamilton is a city deserving of it's own team with it's own owner, not someone else's farm, whose only reason for being in Hamilton would be to prevent the city from having it's own team with it's own owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Will do some googling, if I get a bit of time. From what I remember letters of support from the soccer associations were online at the time. It wasn't going to be TFC II, but an affiliated franchise with different ownership. There was also a letter online from the would be owner and as far as I remember it wasn't MLSE but an overseas investor. What was involved was the purchase and relocation of the Toronto Lynx and moving them back up to the professional portion of the USL Pro where they had previously been involved with full CSA sanctioning when the Hartrells were running the show pre-TFC. Beyond that I get why being Toronto's minor league operation is unpalatable in a Hamilton context whether it be with city councillors or Joe Q Public, but you are as likely to get an MLS team as you are to get an NHL team due to MLSE holding the territorial rights in both cases. Elsewhere the "cross-border" approach isn't as likely to strike a raw nerve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hammer- Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Will do some googling, if I get a bit of time. From what I remember letters of support from the soccer associations were online at the time. It wasn't going to be TFC II, but an affiliated franchise with different ownership. There was also a letter online from the would be owner and as far as I remember it wasn't MLSE but an overseas investor. What was involved was the purchase and relocation of the Toronto Lynx and moving them back up to the professional portion of the USL Pro where they had previously been involved with full CSA sanctioning when the Hartrells were running the show pre-TFC. Beyond that I get why being Toronto's minor league operation is unpalatable in a Hamilton context whether it be with city councillors or Joe Q Public, but you are as likely to get an MLS team as you are to get an NHL team due to MLSE holding the territorial rights in both cases. Elsewhere the "cross-border" approach isn't as likely to strike a raw nerve. I think I may have somewhat misspoke myself in regards to the Lynx, regarding the ownership, but but part of the issue was that the Lynx were not heading into the USL and hadn't got the OK because TFC2 and the CSA was still in the process of allowing teams to play in the USL. The other issue was the city outright said it was looking for at least six figures in rent which the club was a bit hesitant on talking about. http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4146864-toronto-team-keen-to-play-soccer-at-new-hortons-field/ "The Lynx, which right now run a series of amateur development teams, have a lot of work to do even if they find a new Hamilton home — including earning national soccer association approval to play in a U.S.-based pro league." Regardless, the whole reason the CPL movement and desire has caught as much steam among Canadian soccer fans is because no other market in the country has a real chance of landing an MLS team because of market size, lack of owners willing to pay MLS's prohibitively high expansion fees, MLS's territorial rights and the simple fact that MLS is focused far more larger US cities and larger potential television revenue down south. Further MLS expansion is not happening in Canada anytime soon, and AHL style farm teams (be they the affiliated ones of today, or the unaffiliated ones of old) aren't going to cut it in any market that has a CFL or NHL team. Heck even the NASL in Edmonton isn't cutting it. That's even before we talk about the severe lack of Canadian minutes and player requirements of MLS clubs and level of competition the USL can offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Looks like my memory failed me a bit on that one, but the CSA ultimately didn't reject the notion of USL teams for the three MLS teams, so would have been interesting to see how they would have handled it. They don't like to be seen to be standing in the way of the MLS teams for PR reasons, so have limited leverage in that context. In retrospect, the HDSA and OSA were probably the supportive associations. Would agree Hamilton would be difficult/impossible for something like this, but the NASL team in Ottawa seems to be doing reasonably OK albeit with a lot of youth soccer freebies, so think you are overstating things a bit on the other markets. The key would be that the teams in CFL type markets would have to be independent standalone operations like the Rochester Rhinos rather than MLS reserve teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 On 7/18/2016 at 9:34 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Interesting snippet in an article in the Edmonton Sun about FC Edmonton: “At some point you have to become sustainable. The break-even point is around 9,000 in attendance. Right now, in this location, we have no chance at that.” This is disappointing, but, on a bright note, FC Edmonton is having a hell of a season right now, and after all, "City of Champions" right? They gotta at least try and hold out for a year or two more. Everything changes when you have a Champion. And please forgive my ignorance everyone, but what exactly is so bad about Clarke? I've been to games there. It didn't seem horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Think the idea they are the brink of folding was spin added by an anti-soccer football/baseball/hockey type journalist. The low attendance is nothing new, so why pay for the preason trip to Scotland if the plug is about to be pulled financially? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 ^ no kidding, good call. Annnnd the eddies just scored. And apparently foothills made it into PDL final? Footy looking up in Wild rose country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtlMario Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 It's pretty sad that a week has gone by without anyone or anything having been said about this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 8 hours ago, MtlMario said: It's pretty sad that a week has gone by without anyone or anything having been said about this subject. Not really anything to talk about without new information. We can only repeat the same arguments at each other for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRM Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: Not really anything to talk about without new RUMOURS. We can only repeat the same arguments at each other for so long. There, fixed it for ya Tired of this "nothing happening"? I'm shocked, shocked I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRM Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: Not really anything to talk about without new RUMOURS. We can only repeat the same arguments at each other for so long. There, fixed it for ya Tired of this "nothing happening"? I'm shocked, shocked I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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