Toronto FC must sign more Canadians

[Gian-Luca]

The over-paying for Canadians argument doesn't wash with me. For one, a great deal of the Canadians Mo overpaid for in year one for this team had the same agent Mo does. But more importantly, one of Mo's biggest problems that has hurt this team has been overpaying for foreign players, rather than just Canadians (many of whom don't really have anywhere to go & thus could be & probably often are low-balled). Right from the start he grossly overpaid for Welsh. In addition to that fans are still wondering to this day what prompted Mo to give Robinson twice the salary that Brennan gets. Similarly Tebily has already been a bust at his salary this season, not because of a lack of quality when he plays but the fact that for a variety of reasons, he rarely does. Even if he plays every minute for the rest of the year I don't think we'll have gotten our money's worth, he's missed too much time already. Similarly Velez is overpaid even at $60 grand (he should be at minimum salary at best), so is Dunivant (considering we traded the much cheaper but just as good Goldthwaite to get him) and frankly so are Cunningham & Robert. So if anything I'd say overpaying for players is a problem Mo has in general, not just with Canadians (although the latter certainly isn't a problem this year).

[jpg75]

vis-a-vis the Youth setup, i believe we're probably in a better position to exploit the local youth talent with expectations of turning pro then alot of clubs. Southern Ont. has a population of 8 million people and 100K's of registered soccer players with only 1 club to feed. Compare that to some of the smaller European countries where the entire country is roughly the size of Southern Ont. with 18 D1 clubs, plus D2 etc. I don't see it being unreasonable that atleast 2 or 3 from the current U16's could sign Dev. deals (i'd say the same for the U18's, but only the 91's can be signed after 2 years of playing).

[socmad]

Robinson gets paid what he does because he is the only one in midfield that can string passes together....if it wasn't for robinson and guevara, TFC would be a joke with no fluidity at all...i'd say get rid of edu since he is still young and is still marketable, IMO he's greatly over-rated and over-confident,...looks like he's walking in the park half the time,...for a young, up and coming, he sure lacks committment and dedication....Velez does his job not extremely well but well enough considering he's only paid 60K, .... Tebily the times that i have seen him play is the most composed and talented out of all the defenders, ....injuries happen..... i agree that the first to go should be cunningham ....this guy is lazy, selfish and is living in the past ... this guy is not effective at all...i cringe evertime he gets the ball because i know he'll lose it....he pisses off all the other players on the team with his effortless and selfish runs .... IMO don't mess with the defenders, they're fine, midfield is okay if edu's attitude changes (at least robert can shoot from FK and CK, better than anyone else on the team),....but get rid of cunningham, first and foremost ..... and let's see what dickov can do if he does come.... this guy used to be real good

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by socmad

Robinson gets paid what he does because he is the only one in midfield that can string passes together....if it wasn't for robinson and guevara, TFC would be a joke with no fluidity at all...i'd say get rid of edu since he is still young and is still marketable, IMO he's greatly over-rated and over-confident,...looks like he's walking in the park half the time,...for a young, up and coming, he sure lacks committment and dedication....Velez does his job not extremely well but well enough considering he's only paid 60K, .... Tebily the times that i have seen him play is the most composed and talented out of all the defenders, ....injuries happen..... i agree that the first to go should be cunningham ....this guy is lazy, selfish and is living in the past ... this guy is not effective at all...i cringe evertime he gets the ball because i know he'll lose it....he pisses off all the other players on the team with his effortless and selfish runs .... IMO don't mess with the defenders, they're fine, midfield is okay if edu's attitude changes (at least robert can shoot from FK and CK, better than anyone else on the team),....but get rid of cunningham, first and foremost ..... and let's see what dickov can do if he does come.... this guy used to be real good

I like Robinson as a ball winning, destroyer-type holding midfielder but unless I've got bad vision, I'd disagree that he is a passer of any quality. In fact, I am consistently frustrated by the fact he is an excellent winner of 50-50 balls but then makes the most obscenely off-line passes. I always tell people that Robinson would still be in England, possibly in the Prem, if he could actually pass the ball accurately with consistency. He is perhaps the best ball winner in MLS but a lousy passer IMO. Am I alone on this?

Edu is a good enough ball winner and a slightly better passer than Robinson. I think Edu is not composed enough and I don't believe that he's displaying the intensity and desire necessary of a true professional player this season. If he was sold on right now, I would not be concerned about it.

[RJB]

At the TFC - Whitecaps game, I thought that Robinson held the FC together. He was a general in the middle, and would be welcome at any club in North America I'd say.

[jpg75]

I'm not a fan of Robinson's passing ability either. If it isn't a simple 5-10 foot pass to a wide open teammate, then it's a coin flip as to whether it'll end up on the foot of a wrong-shirted player.

Even worse than his passing is his shooting during the run of play. I don't know how many times i've seen one of his shots from 25 yards end up in the 40th row. In dead ball situations he's pretty good, but when it's rolling look out!

He's definitely one of the best ball winners around, but do we need to pay someone 315K to simply be a destroyer and not much else?

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I like Robinson as a ball winning, destroyer-type holding midfielder but unless I've got bad vision, I'd disagree that he is a passer of any quality. In fact, I am consistently frustrated by the fact he is an excellent winner of 50-50 balls but then makes the most obscenely off-line passes. I always tell people that Robinson would still be in England, possibly in the Prem, if he could actually pass the ball accurately with consistency. He is perhaps the best ball winner in MLS but a lousy passer IMO. Am I alone on this?

Edu is a good enough ball winner and a slightly better passer than Robinson. I think Edu is not composed enough and I don't believe that he's displaying the intensity and desire necessary of a true professional player this season. If he was sold on right now, I would not be concerned about it.

I think your assessments of both players are accurate, and I would also support jpg75's opinion regarding Robinson's shooting. I sort of get that feeling that both these guys could benefit from being "pushed" a bit more by some legitimate competition for their starting positions. Right now, their only competition is Harmse.

[ag futbol]

Ya there seems to be this rumor going around that Carl Robinson is a good passer. Have to completely disagree. On top of his limited range he passes his players into trouble all the time.

We need a playmaker for the centre to balance him out. Hopefully we can ship that waste of space Edu out before long.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

I'm not a fan of Robinson's passing ability either. If it isn't a simple 5-10 foot pass to a wide open teammate, then it's a coin flip as to whether it'll end up on the foot of a wrong-shirted player.

Even worse than his passing is his shooting during the run of play. I don't know how many times i've seen one of his shots from 25 yards end up in the 40th row. In dead ball situations he's pretty good, but when it's rolling look out!

He's definitely one of the best ball winners around, but do we need to pay someone 315K to simply be a destroyer and not much else?

I think he's had a rough few matches recently with his passing. Shocking really, but think he's usually okay. Every player goes through those spells.

Has good vision, anticipation and knows when to cheat but is he worth the coin Trader Mo puts out for him? Not last year, certainly not this year and he won't be getting any better next year at his age so I'd say no. Not even close.

And Mo thinks Canadians are over priced? Man...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The key point I made about supply and demand has not been addressed. There are very few Canadian players who could crack the senior rosters in an MLS context. I suspect the number would be around 20 at best. Given a large portion of them prefer to play in Europe and are, therefore already under contract with European teams and a few like de Rosario and Onstad are already playing elsewhere in MLS, any CMNT player who comes to the end of his contract would have considerable leverage in salary negotiations with TFC if the old regulations were still in place. When fringe CMNT players like Braz, Canizales, Pozniak and Reda failed to make it in MLS terms, the original roster regulations became completely unworkable.

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

vis-a-vis the Youth setup, i believe we're probably in a better position to exploit the local youth talent with expectations of turning pro then alot of clubs. Southern Ont. has a population of 8 million people and 100K's of registered soccer players with only 1 club to feed. Compare that to some of the smaller European countries where the entire country is roughly the size of Southern Ont. with 18 D1 clubs, plus D2 etc. I don't see it being unreasonable that atleast 2 or 3 from the current U16's could sign Dev. deals (i'd say the same for the U18's, but only the 91's can be signed after 2 years of playing).

I'd have to seriously question that. A May to September season really doesn't cut it in player development terms. There is a reason why BC has always been so strong in Canadian soccer terms despite a relatively small population. In London, playing futsal helps in the winter but that isn't so popular elsewhere in the province, from what I understand.

It should also be noted that the vast majority of youth soccer registrants are involved with house league teams that are not much more than a glorified baby sitting service so the actual numbers in an environment where there is knowledgeable coaching and a reasonable skill level is much more limited. On the elite teams, too great an emphasis is placed on winning trophies and not enough time is spent developing skills and the end result of that is players like Andrea Lombardo. The reason TFC need to get into the U-12 and U-14 and maybe even the U-10 stuff is to change that.

[Richard]

^ Well said.

In BC there are options to play outdoors at a relatively high level all year round, makes a huge difference.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

^ Well said.

In BC there are options to play outdoors at a relatively high level all year round, makes a huge difference.

Where is the evidence that it makes such a huge difference? It probably used to make a big difference 20 years ago before we got all the indoor facilities but now players are training year round on regulation size indoor fields. At one time we had a larger than per capita number of our better players from BC but in recent years I would say BC has a lower than per capita number of our better players. The current national team only has 3 players from BC, two of whom Onstad and Hastings are among our weaker players and only have spots by default due to lack of alternatives in their position. Plus, Hastings moved to England when he was seven so it is hard to credit BC weather with much of his development. The only strong player from BC is Friend. The majority of our top current players are from Ontario and this province is also producing a great deal of the top youth talent. Over half the last MNT was from Ontario including most of the star players. Considering Ontario achieved most of this before TFC arrived, TFC will improve the situation even more and I think people are correct in stating that they have a big talent pool to select from. Hopefully TFC and their current manager won't screw up the big opportunity they have to develop excellent local talent.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I think we are at risk of going off on another tangent, which does not address the core points made. The question of climate originally addressed this assertion, Southern Ont. has a population of 8 million people and 100K's of registered soccer players with only 1 club to feed. Compare that to some of the smaller European countries where the entire country is roughly the size of Southern Ont and the possible benefits of playing indoors were actually mentioned in passing. Worth noting that Reda and Pozniak both came up through the Ontario youth system and played for the Lynx in USL-D1. Given they were not good enough, I think it stretches credulity to assert that there is a big talent pool in Ontario at this point for TFC to select from in senior roster terms. Playing for Canada is clearly not a reliable yardstick for whether a player will be good enough to have a prolonged career in MLS.

[Grizzly]

What stretches credulity is someone who selectively uses examples such as Reda and Pozniak as proof that Southern Ontario is not an excellent place to develop talent. First of all, I don't think either Pozniak or Reda are not of the level to play for TFC since Poz is definitely equal to or better than several current starters at TFC and even as disappointing as Reda was last year I don't think he is worse than several TFC players who seem to get regular playing time. Plus they were playing under a coach who was both incompetent and biased against Canadian players. Regardless of that two southern Ontario players, Sutton and Brennan, are playing for TFC so they are obviously good enough. Additionally I can think of about 6 Southern Ontario players who are superior to these two players (and superior to most of the TFC starters) as well as several others I would consider equivalent to them. Southern Ontario may not produce per capita the number of top players that many European nations do but TFC has almost exclusive access to a large talent pool, far larger than most European clubs have. If TFC can not develop good homegrown talent from Southern Ontario than it will be through their own inability not through lack of potentially top level players in the area.

It would be one thing if Mo's club of foreigners was full of top-notch foreigners dominating the league like some of the top EPL clubs but why do we have to watch so many mediocre foreign players at TFC who are not better than many of the Canadians playing in the USL? TFC has had a mediocre season in MLS and have been piss poor in the Canadian Championship regardless of what happens on Tuesday. Where is the proof that this foreign player influx is paying off?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

It would be one thing if Mo's club of foreigners was full of top-notch foreigners dominating the league like some of the top EPL clubs but why do we have to watch so many mediocre foreign players at TFC who are not better than many of the Canadians playing in the USL?

Two words, salary cap. The fact that Canadian player X is better than international player Y is irrelevant if it takes significantly more money to sign player X than player Y. Beyond that if you think Marco Reda is of the level required to play for TFC I have to draw the conclusion that your opinions are based more on emotion than reason.

[Grizzly]

Two words: Overpaid foreigners. TFC has only one problem with its salary cap and that is Mo is overpaying foreign players. I think it is indicative of Mo's lack of managerial ability that an ESPN article (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=524551&&cc=5901) earlier this year did not list any TFC players in the highest paid or best bargain columns but in the overpaid list TFC had two out of five. While Mo managed to get rid of his mistake, Samuel it is absolutely amazing that Cunningham didn't make the list and there are several other TFC candidates for the overpaid category.

Regarding Reda what I said is he is of the same level as several other players who are getting playing time on TFC. I do not think they are the level of player that should play on TFC but Mo seems to think they are. In any case if this is indicative of the proper playing level for TFC then Reda is at that level. Poz is much better than this level but lost his contract because he is being treated as a foreigner on not only American teams but the only Canadian one as well.

There may be some Canadians out of the price range of TFC or who want to stay in Europe but there are certainly several who would be both available and affordable especially given the low standard of play Mo is setting for many of his foreign acquisitions. If Mo had spent half the time on scouting Canadians that he did on trying to get the quota reduced and blaming them for his managerial ineptness, TFC would both have more Canadians and be a better club than it currently is. Nor are the top Canadians that TFC can't afford irrelevant to other theme of the discussion as to whether TFC has a large pool of talent to draw on for its academy and future players. If top players developed in southern Ontario before TFC came along, unless they prove to be incompetent or uninterested, TFC should be in a very good position to develop talent in the future.

In closing, TFC doesn't seem to have had much interest in signing Gerba but yet they have Cunningham (who I wouldn't want on the Impact if he played for free) making $257,500.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Talking about overpaid foreigners is slightly farcical when Amado Guevara is on the same money as Jim Brennan. I would agree that Mo Johnston has overpaid somewhat for players from the British transfer market but that doesn't suddenly make the original 2007 roster regulations workable. It's a red herring thrown in to avoid discussing the core issues. You have yet to address the whole question of supply and demand. What are TFC supposed to do when faced with a situation in which 5 Canadian senior roster players are required while only about 20 Canadians are actually good enough with most under contract elsewhere for more money than TFC can afford to spend under the salary cap in many cases having little or no interest in playing in MLS in the first place? It was a recipe for disaster, which is why TFC's competitors within MLS were willing to cut them some slack.

Beyond that, Cunningham before the injury against RSL last summer actually looked the part at 250k. He doesn't any more so if/when a new striker is signed at the conclusion of the McBride saga he is the probable casualty. Bit bizarre to write about him as if he is somehow central to TFC's future plans.

[jpg75]

^ In a situation like the one you have described TFC should hang on to the Canadian players that it had and not trade them or let them get away in the expansion draft. Serioux could have been ours, Pozniak should still be here, Ornoch should have been signed etc.

But hey, when you can complain and get the rules changed allowing you to have a far greater amount of internationals than the rest of your competition, why not?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

^ In a situation like the one you have described TFC should hang on to the Canadian players that it had and not trade them or let them get away in the expansion draft. Serioux could have been ours, Pozniak should still be here, Ornoch should have been signed etc.

Then when those players' contracts come up for renegotiation.....

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Then when those players' contracts come up for renegotiation.....

Its radical, and a little bizzarre, but I've checked the rules and it is allowed...you Re-sign them. That way they get to play for you again under a new contract.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

And out of the goodness of their hearts, despite soccer players inherently having a very short career, those players would meekly accept the same money again? No chance of that happening unless somebody like Alan Eagleson was their agent and those kind of shenanigans don't happen nowadays. The entire MLS business model is based on being able to pay the domestic players significantly less than the going rate over in Europe as single entity removes the competition between teams for a player's services that exists in the European transfer market. Once signing Reda, Braz, Canizalez and Pozniak didn't work out that was never going to be doable for TFC under the 2007 regulations as there simply are not enough viable options to have "take it or leave it" leverage in salary negotiations.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Then when those players' contracts come up for renegotiation.....

...and when they retire we'll be all out of Canadians [:0]

Ok, in all seriousenss you re-sign them. If they've done a good job, you pay them more, if they haven't you either let them go or sign them for less. That's what they did with Reda, Braz and Canizales. No one is whining about those players being let go because they didn't cut it. In a few years we'll have the development players ready for the senior roster and the homegrown academy players coming up to take their place on the dev. roster. TFC does not need 18 international spots.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Talking about overpaid foreigners is slightly farcical when Amado Guevara is on the same money as Jim Brennan.

Yeah, and given how many games Guevara has missed already in comparison to Brennan & will continue to miss, I'd say that's about right. In any event, I never said that every foreigner was overpaid, just as I never said every Canadian was either.

quote:

What are TFC supposed to do when faced with a situation in which 5 Canadian senior roster players are required while only about 20 Canadians are actually good enough

This is the fallacy of your argument. You sound like Mo Johnston's personal advisor on Canadian talent assessment with this sort of statement. Only 20 Canadians are good enough to play in MLS? Puh-leeze. It gets down to the fact that you & Mo seem to think the Canadian supply is a lot more limited than it actually is.

I repeat, next year TFC, without having to look or sign anyone new, could easily have up to five Canadians on the senior roster. You may argue that Nana Attakora-Gyan and Tyler Hemming are not good enough to start and would be mediocre MLS players. Well guess what, this is the MLS, there are a lot of mediocre players on a lot of teams (like Toronto has several of on their senior roster), and with continued expansion for the forseeable future I don't really think that's going to change.

[VPjr]

G-L, I think Nana has a legitimate shot at being on the senior roster in 2009.

Hemming? Maybe.

Rosenlund...not likely.

Melo and Gala...not ready yet IMO...they need alot more seasoning.

Monsalve is a good young GK but I'd like to see him get out of the TFC system and play somewhere else. GKs only get better by playing. The longer he sits idle, the more likely it is that his development stalls.

I do believe that there are a couple of other young Canadians lurking around that are potential TFC developmental players with a shot a 1st team action if they continue to develop. I do not believe TFC will overpay to bring in a Canadian, regardless of what fans might want to see. I know that there are plenty of Canadian players who have the ability and pedigree to play for TFC but I'm not sure that there are many that are willing to take the money they would be offered.

[youllneverwalkalone]

A little OT, but the TFC U-16 and U-18 names -literally the names of the players- sound awesome. If you switched them with Chelsea you wouldn't notice the difference -in terms of names.

I've said before, if the Lynx can produce current Nats Serioux, Stalteri, and Hutchinson, imagine what even a half-way decent academy can achieve!

Back on topic, I think the seasonality of the lower mainland is a total Red Herring. And you need to say Lower Mainland, as opposed to BC, as you can be sure Rob Friend was not playing a September to May season in Kelowna!

Here's the problem with the "standard" season in the Vancouver area: 99% of kids are under huge peer pressure to play hockey. Many immigrant parents from areas where hockey is not totally foreign (ie. former Yugoslavia) give in to the pressure and enroll their kids in hockey -thereby ending their football careers. This happened to me, and a countless number of friends. If the football season had been May to September, I would have kept playing for sure. By the time you're sixteen, if you're 5'11, 155lbs your hockey career is effectively over unless you've really good. Football, who knows? Size definetly isn't the determining factor.

Writing this, David Edgar and Patrice Bernier come to mind, as both were avid hockey players. If they had grown up in Vancouver, would they be where they are today?