Toronto FC must sign more Canadians

[themodelcitizen]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

Obrien class? what did he do last year? Zip. Serioux is a top defender in MLS, coincidentally our weakest area.

good one. I was starting to take you seriously until this point. O'Brien only played 13 games but for the first half of the season or so, we never lost a game with him on the field. His runs and crossing were instrumental in getting the precious few early-season wins that we actually did. If it wasn't for his dodgy knee, he would've been a big part of this year's squad as well.

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

I would trade both of those american punks in a 2 for 1 trade for dero any day. Who are we trying to help here? Do you think those two are world class or something? Id rather see Harmse and Hemming play in their spots respectively, we would not be losing much, if anything at all, and we'd have deRo. deRo is better than any player we have and would be well worth whatever Houston asks.

No, Edu and Wynne are not world-class, but they're very much a part of the future of this club (in both playing time and potential transfer income). Toronto has enough aging veterans -- DeRo would be a great additon to the club but not at the expense of two skilled under-23 players.

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

And if you DID have 5-6 CDN Internationals, what would happen during WCQ and Gold Cup play? You'd lose half your roster.

- you play your kids and allow for the development of Cdn Soccer.

Having your kids get tooled 3-0 and the fans start to lose interest is hardly worth having a couple more Canadians on the reserve team (who would only see action when the senior players were on int'l duty).

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

"I'd much rather see 2-3 quality Canadians on TFC, and Vancouver-Montreal eventually, than have them all on the same team."

- id rather see 6-8 on each.

So would I, but I'm being realistic and giving you the reasons that's not a priority for MLSE and TFC right now.

[Gian-Luca]

http://www.thescore.ca/blogs/footy/index.asp?name=footy/2008/07/press_release_h_1.html

According to the above press release, the extra international spot that Mo picked up for the rights to Darren Huckerby lasts until the year 2013, or to put it another way, when we'll be in the Hex for qualifying for the 2014 World Cup, presumably without any TFC players in the Canadian team since they will all be foreigners. Because the release also confirms that TFC currently has 18 international roster spots, this with a 18-man senior roster. At this rate MLSE should just lease 18 players from Manchester United and have them play as "Toronto FC" for the summer.

The CSA should never have agreed to the reduction of domestic roster spots for TFC when you can also top these spots up by trading for them. There's no way anyone in the world can seriously argue with a straight face that it is necessary for TFC to have 18 international spots, as you'd have to argue that the Canadian player pool that can play at the MLS level is zero.

I realize we're all busy now organizing things for World Cup Qualifying, but when the dust settles I think those of us inclined should discuss what action should be taken. The number of international spots TFC gets is to be reviewed in 2009 and I think we should make our voice heard for that review process to reduce the spots, or push to get it expedited if we possibly can.

[jpg75]

^ I agree. Come December (after the SF round) let's push for the CSA to take a stand and force a changing of the rules concerning Canadian contect at TFC.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

^ I agree. Come December (after the SF round) let's push for the CSA to take a stand and force a changing of the rules concerning Canadian contect at TFC.

There's something else we can push for with perhaps a better chance of success - getting the CSA to impose the Sepp Blatter idea for 5 to 6 domestic players to start each Canadian Championship match for next & all subsequent years.

If TFC win on July 22nd it is now possible with this trade that they could represent Canada in the Concacaf Champions League later this year with no Canadian players dressed, never mind actually played. A complete and total farce in the making.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

^ I agree. Come December (after the SF round) let's push for the CSA to take a stand and force a changing of the rules concerning Canadian contect at TFC.

There's something else we can push for with perhaps a better chance of success - getting the CSA to impose the Sepp Blatter idea for 5 to 6 domestic players to start each Canadian Championship match for next & all subsequent years.

If TFC win on July 22nd it is now possible with this trade that they could represent Canada in the Concacaf Champions League later this year with no Canadian players dressed, never mind actually played. A complete and total farce in the making.

[Richard]

^ I agree plus I support the worldwide application of the 6+5 proposal.

[Guest speedmonk42]

If you want to fight for something, make Canadians NOT count as foreigners in the league.

That would be waaaaaay more valuable than stuffing TFC with Canadians that may or may not help us.

[Richard]

^ Need to pick your battles.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

If you want to fight for something, make Canadians NOT count as foreigners in the league.

That would be waaaaaay more valuable than stuffing TFC with Canadians that may or may not help us.

I've a feeling that this may happen after they announce Vancouver is joining the league in 2011 or so. We'll see after the all-star game, though even if they announce Vancouver is getting a team by then they may not address the domestic content issue at that time.

The key is certainly to make our voices heard that the status quo is unacceptable, whether we would be directly successful or not. But I agree that the next few months need to have our energies directed to World Cup Qualifying, as nothing is likely to change re: Canadians in MLS between now & the end of the semi-final round (except the possible Vancouver announcement).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

^ I agree. Come December (after the SF round) let's push for the CSA to take a stand and force a changing of the rules concerning Canadian contect at TFC.

Yes let's force TFC to field players like Marco Reda and Adam Braz over the next few seasons and jeopardize the success of the franchise by having a losing team for several seasons. If the Canadian players that are available given the money that is available based on the salary cap were good enough and could help the team win Mo Johnston and John Carver would be signing them.

[Gian-Luca]

Yes because clearly Reda & Braz are the only Canadian players out there and there are obviously no Canadian equivalent's for the likes of Marco Velez, Jarrod Smith and Brian Edwards in terms of talent and skill.

[Gian-Luca]

Yes because clearly Reda & Braz are the only Canadian players out there and there are obviously no Canadian equivalent's for the likes of Marco Velez, Jarrod Smith and Brian Edwards in terms of talent and skill.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

If you want to fight for something, make Canadians NOT count as foreigners in the league.

That would be waaaaaay more valuable than stuffing TFC with Canadians that may or may not help us.

Apparently the USSF are the ones that have to OK that initiative, and accorind to BBTB (or was it Rudi?) they don't want to.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Yes let's force TFC to field players like Marco Reda and Adam Braz over the next few seasons and jeopardize the success of the franchise by having a losing team for several seasons. If the Canadian players that are available given the money that is available based on the salary cap were good enough and could help the team win Mo Johnston and John Carver would be signing them.

Like Serioux, Pozniak, Ornoch, Wagenaar, Gerba, Placentino etc.? Mo has had numerous chances to sign Canadians and he refuses to. It's like he's going out of his way to NOT sign Canadians and making excuses for his behaviour (JDG2, Atiba and Hargreaves cost too much). Even if some of these players aren't starters, there isn't a hell of alot more talent on the current roster. And there are some youngsters already with the team that can jump onto the senior roster spots if the quotas are changed.

As for jeopardizing the success of the franchise, i think the 7000 person waiting list for season tickets puts a small dent in that argument.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

I agree with Gian-Luca about the CSA pushing for Canadian quotas for the CCL. This seems a more realistic goal that wouldn't need to involve the USSF or MLS...AND why would the Canadian clubs only carry Canadian players for CCL games? They wouldn't. The Canadians they'd play in CCL games would have to stick around for MLS games too as you wouldn't be bringing in players just for CCL. Win, win.

[Alberto7]

I couldn't believe it when I read that TFC now had 18 International spots. How can this be? I thought MLS really controlled this type of thing very closely. At this rate, MLS will quickly become NASL2...A bunch of over the hill foreigners and a couple of token Canadians/Americans on the bench.

Damn this makes me mad. Why isn't Ali Gerba getting a trial at TFC?

[An Observer]

I am now sure of the MLS rules but basically you can trade international spots which means someone can stockpile them like TFC. The problem is that they still have the salary cap which means its difficult to use them at least for top class players.

I am still of the opinion that development of Canadian talent will only really occur in the MLS when Americans and Canadians are treated the same. Currently, TFC either has to go abroad or the the USL to get Canadian talent (or play a large premium to attract a DeRosario). If Canadian talent was treated like Americans, I could see players like Pozniak, Hemming, Lombardo, etc. finding there way to teams that could use them as domestic players. Currently, US sides do not want to waste an international spot on them.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Most Scottish Man in Cdn.

I agree with Gian-Luca about the CSA pushing for Canadian quotas for the CCL. This seems a more realistic goal that wouldn't need to involve the USSF or MLS

It also removes the main argument that Mo has used for pushing for less Canadians on TFC, which is that there isn't enough Canadian talent available to allow TFC to be competitive against other MLS teams. It's a somewhat irrelevant argument when it comes to competing against Canadian USL teams.

[Massive Attack]

Let's be honest here, even with 2 Canadians on the senior roster right now TFC is still only 8th of 14 teams.

Mo Johnston is lazy. His current system of finding aging 32-year-old+ players isn't working that well either. The alarming part is that its looking like its going to become a constant cycle of mostly useless internationals. Ever year he'll just rotate the retreads.

TFC is only marginally better this year with less Canadians.

Toronto FC will never be able to fully move forward until Mo is gone. They need a manager who has respect for Canadian talent and who has a broader perspective than EPL/British retreads.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Let's be honest here, even with 2 Canadians on the senior roster right now TFC is still only 8th of 14 teams.

And close to not winning the Voyageurs Cup as well.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And close to not winning the Voyageurs Cup as well.

Sorry, the number is three (Harmse, Sutton, Brennan). But still, the point remains the same.

Again, it appears that Mo's plan is to simply cycle the retreads.

I find it hard to believe we can't find decent Canadians to replace guys like Velez, Robinson or Smith.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

I am still of the opinion that development of Canadian talent will only really occur in the MLS when Americans and Canadians are treated the same.

I have always wondered what would happen league wide if this rule was put in place, leaving aside the TFC situation for the moment. It would be interesting to get the opinions of the other MLS general managers as to whether or not they would pick up more Canadians if they also counted as domestic players south of the border, especially if those Canadians are used primarily as depth off the bench or developmental projects as opposed to regularly starting.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Yes because clearly Reda & Braz are the only Canadian players out there and there are obviously no Canadian equivalent's for the likes of Marco Velez, Jarrod Smith and Brian Edwards in terms of talent and skill.

First part is a complete non sequitur given I wrote "players like" and the key thing to bear in mind on the second part is that the equivalent Canadians would have to actually be willing to play for 60k, 36k and 45k, respectively. Time and again in threads on here people talk about CMNT players being "low balled" on offers from TFC.

[Gian-Luca]

Non-sequitur shmequitur - the point is those aren't the only players or types of players out there. And there are players that would have been willing to play for those amounts, at least one of them is already with TFC, others they have let go to European leagues when they could have had them here first.

I just got back from watching TFC play Independiente, after tonight's performance and the previous ones I've seen there's no doubt in my mind that Hemming and Attakora-Gyan should be on track to be graduated to the TFC season roster for next season. That means TFC could have 5 Canadians on their senior roster next season (Brennan, Sutton, Harmse, Hemming, Attakora-Gyan) without having to sign any new players. Both players could be signed for less than some of the amounts you list. Whether they will of course is another matter, and the chances of it happening seem considerably less if their senior spots are taken up instead by 16 to 18 internationals. By 2010 TFC could probably have 7 Canucks on the senior roster without having to look further afield (although I would hope that the spots vacated by Hemming, Nana, etc. would be replaced by graduating more young Canucks from the TFC academy). Never mind nationalism, it makes perfect business sense for TFC to develop cheap Canadian talent like this so instead of signing 16 to 18 Euro-has-beens they would have more money under the cap to sign better but fewer foreign players. The successful MLS teams like Houston have shown that when in comes to international spots, quality, not quantity, is the way to go. Too bad Mo hasn't figured that out yet.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If the old roster rules were still in place Canadian players as good Velez, Smith and Edwards would have lots of leverage in salary negotiations on a supply and demand basis. If all they could get is 60k, 36k and 45k in that scenario it would be because they had very bad agents.

Eventually the youth system will pay dividends and the situation will change but I think you are way too optimistic on the short to medium term prospects in that regard. Over in Europe, usually only one or two players will make it from any given U-16 or U-18 sort of team. The rest of the kids are effectively only there as filler to aid in their development. I suspect that out of all the Canadian players TFC currently have in the two Academy teams and development roster right now, there may be next to nobody who will ultimately crack the senior roster and stay on it for several seasons. TFC arrived a bit too late for them unless they are exceptional talents because MLS is a very high standard and a huge jump from Ontario youth clubs.

TFC really need to get the younger age group stuff going along the lines of what a club like Ajax does over in Holland and if/when they do I suspect it will be the better part of a decade until we really start to see the results. The marked improvement of Scottish clubs in European competition and Scotland's nation team over the last couple of seasons is actually based on stuff that SPL clubs started doing in the late 90s at the earlier age group levels, for example.