Toronto FC must sign more Canadians

[Guest Ed]

The winter season availability on the lower West Coast hasn't translated into a bumper crop of players from that part of BC who have more savvy and experience than those from other Cdn provinces. Hopefully the Caps residency program and other youth efforts will help correct this.

As far as I can tell, more players from icebound Alberta play for our nats than from the year-round playing environment of southern BC.

And to align this with the topic at hand, there is absolutely no reason that TFC cannot stock its team with players from Southern Ontario for the ongoing future. The population base and demographics (lots of immigrant or 2nd gen kids interested in the game) almost ensure a steady supply of talent. Just need to get their academies going full steam ahead and start USING local players.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

G-L, I think Nana has a legitimate shot at being on the senior roster in 2009.

Hemming? Maybe.

Rosenlund...not likely.

Melo and Gala...not ready yet IMO...they need alot more seasoning.

I agree that we are not likely to see Rosenlund, Melo & Gala on the senior roster for next year. I wouldn't be surprised if Rosenlund is never graduated to the senior roster of TFC though I also wouldn't be surprised if he plays for the Whitecaps in MLS in 2011 (assuming they begin play by that time of course).

But I also wouldn't be surprised if Nana & Hemming don't get on to the senior roster next year either (and remember, Nana is not even considered a senior dev. player). Not because they wouldn't be ready for it but because Mo will probably sign another 10 aging European-based farts if he can with that ridiculous number of international spots the team has.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I think we are at risk of going off on another tangent, which does not address the core points made. The question of climate originally addressed this assertion, Southern Ont. has a population of 8 million people and 100K's of registered soccer players with only 1 club to feed. Compare that to some of the smaller European countries where the entire country is roughly the size of Southern Ont and the possible benefits of playing indoors were actually mentioned in passing. Worth noting that Reda and Pozniak both came up through the Ontario youth system and played for the Lynx in USL-D1. Given they were not good enough, I think it stretches credulity to assert that there is a big talent pool in Ontario at this point for TFC to select from in senior roster terms. Playing for Canada is clearly not a reliable yardstick for whether a player will be good enough to have a prolonged career in MLS.

Can't believe i missed this earlier. Wow man, using Pozniak and Reda as the only examples of the development of players in Southern Ont. is like dismissing Alberta for only developing Darcy Tucker and Ron Maclean. You missed the De Guzman bros., Stalteri, Radzinski, Klukowski, Serioux, Hutchinson, DeRo, Hume, Edgar, Peters, Ornoch, Jakovic...that's about 2-3 players good enough to make it to a level even to or higher than MLS coming out of Southern Ontario every 2-year cycle.

...And the weather argument doesn't fly when you compare us to countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway etc. Those countries have similar populations to Southern Ont. and with dozens of pro clubs to stock with young players, we have 1 club to stock up.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

since Poz is definitely equal to or better than several current starters at TFC and even as disappointing as Reda was last year I don't think he is worse than several TFC players who seem to get regular playing time. ....................................................................................

It would be one thing if Mo's club of foreigners was full of top-notch foreigners dominating the league like some of the top EPL clubs but why do we have to watch so many mediocre foreign players at TFC who are not better than many of the Canadians playing in the USL? TFC has had a mediocre season in MLS and have been piss poor in the Canadian Championship regardless of what happens on Tuesday. Where is the proof that this foreign player influx is paying off?

Hmmmm. I am at total loss over what people continuously see in Poz. I ( along with at most half a dozen to a dozen people in these forums) have probably seen games, which he played in, more than anyone. I even still recall his play from the U20 in Argentina. Then we got to see him for a few years playing at centennial, then a few MNT games and finally in TFC uniform. My assessment of his play has never changed or waivered from 2001 in Argentina to now. Even though, I have gone out of my way refocus on his play to make sure I haven't missed anything. And what i saw then is the same as what my assessment is today. Just about everyone was surprised to hear that he had signed with a Scandinavian side because the thinking was that it must be a promotion from being with the Lynx. Though I doubt any of us have seen a game from Norway or Sweden.

What I find most puzzling about this endless debate over Poz is that, in big picture of what TFC means for canadian soccer, I am on the same side as those who claim that he merits a spot on the team but fail to see how this example( unlike an academy developed player) improves soccer in canada. I also fail to see how having Poz or players of his calibre and age on the roster helps Canadian soccer. I could understand if we were talking about an skilled up and coming player who needs experience and playing time to develop. But Poz doesn't fall into any of those categories. He's not a young guy anymore ( 27 i think), he seldom does anything that influences a game or gets noticed, he is certainly not overly skilled, never played at a level proven to be higher than USL or comparable, and has not shown to be a player who can excel or distinguish himself in any one position or facet of the game.

He is suspect if you play him at the back and he doesn't produce any offense if you play him in MF. His passsing is hmmmm Ok I guess ( he seldom turns the ball over)but I cannot recall any exceptional, cleavor, well timed & weighted ball that stood out from him. Off the top of my head, I dont recall if he has ever scored a goal. While playing at the back we have seen worst but at the same time I can point to cases where he was slow in closing and he marking was sloppy enough taht it lead to important goals against and that goes right back to Argentina 2001 ( see Can_Ger).

Furthermore, while mostly used as the first sub last year, most would agree that TFC faded more often than not as the games wore on rather than getting a boost from the substitutions.

Sure there are players on the current starting 10 below that have off games, but by and large you see noticable glimpses every now and then of how they can influence a game and that why they have all played at higher levels than poz at a certain point in their career. Something that I have never seen from Poz. Perhaps that is why, until now with the Whitecaps, he has always played on losing teams.

Grizzly says, he better than half the starters. Of the starting 10, where on on earth do you find five players of whom he is more accomplished than?

Brennan, Wynne, Velez, Marshall, Edu, Guevara, Ricketts, Robert, Robinson, Dichio.

To sum up, he is a very very average player ( doesn't particularly do anything well and nothing particularly bad) and is playing at his level right now. Lets be honnest in our assessment of players. we are not helping our players by over hyping them and showing way over the top biases in their favour. Thats not what helps the game grow and improve in this country. It will improve because when we have our players playing in comptetive environments that force them to work hard and bring out the best in them to compete against players from around the world rather than an environment where a canadian passport gives you a free pass.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Furthermore, while mostly used as the first sub last year, most would agree that TFC faded more often than not as the games wore on rather than getting a boost from the substitutions.

Actually Poz was used as a starter in 16 of his 21 matches for TFC last year so I don't think it's accurate to say that he was used mostly as a sub. He rarely started two games in a row playing the same position however, although I've always claimed his versatility is his greatest asset.

I'm not sure that Grizzly said that he was better than half the starters but of that list you provided, I'd say he's definitely better than Velez.

You are right that Pozniak is an average player, but again, there are lot of these type of "average" players in the MLS. His performances last year showed that he could compete in the MLS, but he's not someone that a US based team would be keen to use an international spot on (which is why I was a bit surprised when Chivas traded for him from San Jose). If Canadian players were considered domestics league wide or if Mo had managed his team a bit better you'd have to think he'd still be in the league.

[Grizzly]

I am getting tired of being misquoted on this thread. I didn't say Poz was better than half the starters I said he was as better or equal to several starters on TFC. And by starters we have to consider not just the top lineup of TFC when everyone is available but those who are starting throughout the year. The last MLS game TFC started players such as Velez, James and Smith none of whom I rate very highly. I agree that Poz is an average level MLS player who on most clubs would be a sometimes starter sometimes sub. Yet when a club like TFC has many average to below average MLS players in its roster who are foreign don't tell me that there are not enough Canadians to play in such positions. Unlike much of TFC's lineup depth, when Poz has to play as a starter he does the job instead of screwing up. He may not be a star player but he does what he is asked to do and is not a liability. TFC by contrast has foreign players on its books who don't even belong in the MLS. There is no proof that Canadian players have cost more than their market value for TFC, as many have said the players that are/were overpaid have been mostly foreigners. Brennan is a bargain at his salary and Sutton and Harmse are getting about what they are worth. Having Canadian average MLS players in their late 20s like Poz may not be the saviour of Canadian soccer but it is sure a lot more helpful than having foreign average players in their late 20s.

[Gordon]

The point about Poz is not that he SHOULD be with TFC, but that TFC SHOULD be required to dress a certain number of Canadian players and Poz is brought up in response to those who whine that there are not enough Canadian, that they are too expensive etc. etc. The point, for the sake of the development of Canadian players is that if there is no reason for TFC to develop or sign Canadian players, they won't. It has been mentioned that Hemmings and Nana Two Names should be in the senior roster of TFC next year...but...as TFC does not have to dress them, they may not be if Mo decides that signing a 32 year old foreign player who has already gone through the development pains, developed phyically, and has a 32 year old pro's understanding of the game is the better option. Right now, there is nothing stopping TFC from dressing 18 foreign players. If the Canadian spots are not required, then TFC won't develop Canadians generally. Most american players in MLS, developed as pros by playing in MLS. Most of them sucked by MLS standards when they first started playing in MLS, and most of them have professional careers only because MLS didn't allow American teams to go out and sign foreign players to fill out their entire roster. There is a reason that MLS restricts Foreign players in the US...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

Can't believe i missed this earlier. Wow man, using Pozniak and Reda as the only examples of the development of players in Southern Ont. is like dismissing Alberta for only developing Darcy Tucker and Ron Maclean. You missed the De Guzman bros., Stalteri, Radzinski, Klukowski, Serioux, Hutchinson, DeRo, Hume, Edgar, Peters, Ornoch, Jakovic...that's about 2-3 players good enough to make it to a level even to or higher than MLS coming out of Southern Ontario every 2-year cycle.

And? How many of these players are actually interested in playing in MLS? All that matters in terms of the viability of the MLS eligibility rules is the players like Reda and Pozniak that are actually realistically available to TFC. To include the likes of Jonathon de Guzman, Iain Hume and David Edgar on a list like that is a joke given they deliberately left Ontario's youth system and went overseas at a relatively young age to train to be pros. That phenomenon isn't going to stop just because TFC have arrived on the scene.

quote:...And the weather argument doesn't fly when you compare us to countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway etc. Those countries have similar populations to Southern Ont. and with dozens of pro clubs to stock with young players, we have 1 club to stock up.

Based on the influence of the Gulf Stream, a better analogy in climate terms would actually be with Finland. Like Canada they have hockey as their number one sport and usually struggle to make an impact at soccer. They don't even have one club on a par with TFC as their national division is not much more than semi-pro and tends to draw crowds in the 1500 to 5000 range.

Beyond that I assume you just ignored the glorified baby sitting service part? The numbers actually playing in a serious environment as opposed to house league are currently not that high. You want to make out that southern Ontario is already on a par with most European countries in terms of developing soccer players. It isn't. Not even close. If you ever get involved with running an amateur team you'll find the difference is usually all too obvious when Canadian kids show up to their first practice compared to recently arrived immigrants.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

It gets down to the fact that people like you prefer blaming Mo Johnston to facing up to the full implications of the failure of Reda, Braz, Pozniak and Canizalez to make the grade in MLS terms.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Actually Poz was used as a starter in 16 of his 21 matches for TFC last year so I don't think it's accurate to say that he was used mostly as a sub. He rarely started two games in a row playing the same position however, although I've always claimed his versatility is his greatest asset.

I'm not sure that Grizzly said that he was better than half the starters but of that list you provided, I'd say he's definitely better than Velez.

You are right that Pozniak is an average player, but again, there are lot of these type of "average" players in the MLS. His performances last year showed that he could compete in the MLS, but he's not someone that a US based team would be keen to use an international spot on (which is why I was a bit surprised when Chivas traded for him from San Jose). If Canadian players were considered domestics league wide or if Mo had managed his team a bit better you'd have to think he'd still be in the league.

I support your view on this one, G-L. Pozniak is no great shakes but I guess in the view of the coaches at SJ and Chivas he wasn't a clear enough starter to warrant taking up an international spot.

I wonder how the MLS player pool would be affected if Canadians and Americans were given domestic status league wide?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In reality, now that the distinction between SIs and YIs has been discarded the international roster spot consideration almost certainly did not apply in Pozniak's case because most American teams have plenty of space on their rosters to add more international players. For example, San Jose only have 3 international players listed right now on their website, which is why trading away one of their 8 international spots for 5 years to get the rights to Huckerby was no big deal for them.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

And? How many of these players are actually interested in playing in MLS? All that matters in terms of the viability of the MLS eligibility rules is the players like Reda and Pozniak that are actually realistically available to TFC. To include the likes of Jonathon de Guzman, Iain Hume and David Edgar on a list like that is a joke given they deliberately left Ontario's youth system and went overseas at a relatively young age to train to be pros. That phenomenon isn't going to stop just because TFC have arrived on the scene.

Three players out of the dozen i listed to prove that we can't develop players locally? Ok, those three players left for Europe because there were no options here. Edgar is on the record as saying he would have played for TFC if that option had been available at the time. The De Guzmans have pretty much said Jono would be Canadian if he could have stayed here instead of going to Holland.

The 2-3 players per cycle that have been produced over the last decade were done without any academy system and with a weak USL-1 franchise as the pro option. I think it's fair to say that an MLS team with a dedicated, full-time academy will fare better.

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Based on the influence of the Gulf Stream, a better analogy in climate terms would actually be with Finland. Like Canada they have hockey as their number one sport and usually struggle to make an impact at soccer. They don't even have one club on a par with TFC as their national division is not much more than semi-pro and tends to draw crowds in the 1500 to 5000 range.

What are you a weather man now? Not a good one either, souther Norway is just as cold as Southern Ont. in the winter and probably colder. Plus, they have 2 teams above the arctic circle! Copenhagen and Stockholm might be a little milder, but it's still close to freezing most of the time. If we weren't so wimpy when it came to soccer we could probably play outside from April to November which is what MLS and Norway do. The Swedish league plays from March to October - same length of season.

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Beyond that I assume you just ignored the glorified baby sitting service part? The numbers actually playing in a serious environment as opposed to house league are currently not that high. You want to make out that southern Ontario is already on a par with most European countries in terms of developing soccer players. It isn't. Not even close. If you ever get involved with running an amateur team you'll find the difference is usually all too obvious when Canadian kids show up to their first practice compared to recently arrived immigrants.

Sure, house league is a joke, but due to the sheer numbers alot of the rep. teams at early ages are just as good as their counterparts in other parts of the world. That might be due to some skilled immigrants playing (last i checked they're Canadian too) and it might be due to some highly athletic kids. I'll concede that we have a skill deficit in this country and yes, Canadian kids showing up for their first practice may not know what the heck they're doing. But that's what coaching is for, to teach these 6 year olds and make them better so that one day when they're 14 they'll be playing for TFC Academy.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

The point about Poz is not that he SHOULD be with TFC, but that TFC SHOULD be required to dress a certain number of Canadian players and Poz is brought up in response to those who whine that there are not enough Canadian, that they are too expensive etc. etc. The point, for the sake of the development of Canadian players is that if there is no reason for TFC to develop or sign Canadian players, they won't. It has been mentioned that Hemmings and Nana Two Names should be in the senior roster of TFC next year...but...as TFC does not have to dress them, they may not be if Mo decides that signing a 32 year old foreign player who has already gone through the development pains, developed phyically, and has a 32 year old pro's understanding of the game is the better option. Right now, there is nothing stopping TFC from dressing 18 foreign players. If the Canadian spots are not required, then TFC won't develop Canadians generally. Most american players in MLS, developed as pros by playing in MLS. Most of them sucked by MLS standards when they first started playing in MLS, and most of them have professional careers only because MLS didn't allow American teams to go out and sign foreign players to fill out their entire roster. There is a reason that MLS restricts Foreign players in the US...

Thank you. That sums up things nicely. I would add the length of time that the most recent international spot was traded for (2013) suggests that Mo at least isn't all that confident and/or interested of TFC developing Canadian talent. Since there is plenty of time to trade more draft picks, allocation/discovery rights, etc for more international spots in the meantime, TFC might always end up with an extremely high international spot number. The problem isn't just that TFC were granted even more extra international spots for this year & next, but that the league also allows teams for trade for additional spots if they want.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

We prefer to blame Mo because he deserves the blame. When it comes to TFC's roster, the buck stops with him. Even with your own contention, he's the one who helped to determine who failed to "make the grade in MLS terms" after being the one to sign those players to begin with. Beware of self-fulfilling prophecies.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-LucaWe prefer to blame Mo because he deserves the blame. When it comes to TFC's roster, the buck stops with him. Even with your own contention, he's the one who helped to determine who failed to "make the grade in MLS terms" after being the one to sign those players to begin with. Beware of self-fulfilling prophecies.

Frank Yallop and Preki clearly had a role where Pozniak was concerned. If they saw him as being good enough he wouldn't be on trial over in Europe right now. Beyond that any of the other coaches could have picked up Braz, Canizalez and Reda on waivers if they saw them as good enough and in most cases could easily have found a place for them given the recent change in roster eligibility rules. There were no takers.

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Frank Yallop and Preki clearly had a role where Pozniak was concerned. If they saw him as being good enough he wouldn't be on trial over in Europe right now. Beyond that any of the other coaches could have picked up Braz, Canizalez and Reda on waivers if they saw them as good enough and in most cases could easily have found a place for them given the recent change in roster eligibility rules. There were no takers.

I'm sorry but taking the sample of players we had on our roster last year and using that as a broad representation of Canadian talent makes no sense.

Did Mo Johnston stop looking in England after he signed Peter Canero and Andy Welsh? Two of the worst signings in MLS history. On top of that we habitually overpay these guys. I do not care what Carl Robinson could stand to make in England, in MLS he is not a 300k + player. Guys are doing more for less money within the league.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I'm sorry but taking the sample of players we had on our roster last year and using that as a broad representation of Canadian talent makes no sense.

Did Mo Johnston stop looking in England after he signed Peter Canero and Andy Welsh, two of the worst signings in MLS history.

That is possibly the most succinct summary of the situation I have heard. If Mo was going to judge Canadians on Reda, Braz and Canizales he should have judged the English similarly on these two talents. Last year Mo could have signed better foreigners and he could have signed better Canadians. The fact he did not do so is representative of his talents as manager.

[Gian-Luca]

In any event, the alleged inability of Pozniak to "make the grade" has nothing to do with the extra foreign spots TFC currently has. Those were granted to TFC long before Preki decided Poz wasn't worth the international spot & near $100,000 salary that came (at the time) with it.

[teddym]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Frank Yallop and Preki clearly had a role where Pozniak was concerned. If they saw him as being good enough he wouldn't be on trial over in Europe right now. Beyond that any of the other coaches could have picked up Braz, Canizalez and Reda on waivers if they saw them as good enough and in most cases could easily have found a place for them given the recent change in roster eligibility rules. There were no takers.

With Toronto, Poz established his versatility and ability to step into a role and, if not play brilliantly, at least get the job done and not hurt you. Chivas was happy to take him because they were decimated with injuries; in fact they played some matches early in their schedule with all four of their first string backliners out.

[Massive Attack]

The one good think about Canadians is that they'd be more willing to play on field turf....

---------------------------------------------------------

Today's game was further proof that TFC's reliance on over the hill internationals is leading this team nowhere.

[Richard]

I am not sure the Canadian's that have passed throught he TFC roster so far would have done much better than today's lot did though.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I am not sure the Canadian's that have passed throught he TFC roster so far would have done much better than today's lot did though.

Who says they would have done better at all. I was very pleased with Rosenlund today. I thought he fit in much better than Poz did last year. That said, I'd love to still have Poz on this time but Rosenlund was at least even with Poz today if not better!

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Who says they would have done better at all. I was very pleased with Rosenlund today. I thought he fit in much better than Poz did last year. That said, I'd love to still have Poz on this time but Rosenlund was at least even with Poz today if not better!

After watching the tape I thought Rosenlund had a pretty good game. I realize that a couple of times he got caught in possession but I attribute that more to some inexperience and not quite being up to "game speed," something that should improve with more first team action. He doesn't strike me as a defensive-tackler type so he took up the more advanced midfield role with Robinson playing the defensive/holding position (and actually I thought Robbo did much better with his distribution today). The one thing about Rosenlund I liked was that when he was in possession he didn't treat the ball like it was a live grenade: he tried to make some plays and made some good passes and individual turns/moves along the way. More significantly, and unlike with Harmse, Rosenlund's teammates were more willing to give him the ball.

He's obviously got a long ways to go but based on what I saw today I would rather see more of him than Harmse.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

In any event, the alleged inability of Pozniak to "make the grade"....

There is nothing alleged about the fact that Pozniak is no longer playing in MLS.

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I'm sorry but taking the sample of players we had on our roster last year and using that as a broad representation of Canadian talent makes no sense.

You are really trying to argue that if you go out and sign 4 fringe Canadian national team players in their mid to late 20s and they all fail to make the grade you can't draw any conclusions from it? What last year showed is that you have to be very close to a starter in CMNT terms to be good enough to play regularly MLS. That made the roster regulations untenable because most players who fit that description wouldn't touch MLS with a barge pole.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

There is nothing alleged about the fact that Pozniak is no longer playing in MLS.

That doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't good enough to "make the grade". He made TFC's grade as a domestic last year. He wasn't a domestic on any other team and it cost him. If Yallop stays as the coach of the Galaxy, in all probability Poz would still be playing with TFC this year.