Whitecaps' and Impact's take on MLS to Toronto

[Silvio]

^HL:Vancouver, Montreal says CSA is rushing towards Toronto MLS franchise@<

^By Neil Davidson@=<

^The Canadian Press@=<

The Canadian Soccer Association is rushing toward a Major League Soccer franchise in Toronto and the domestic game could suffer as a result, according to the Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps.<

They applaud Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. for getting into soccer. And they welcome the possibility of another soccer-specific stadium in Canada _ the Impact have already announced plans for a new 15,000-seat home while the Whitecaps have a called a news conference for Thursday to announce their own 15,000-seat stadium project.<

But they say the time for an MLS team in Toronto is not right.<

"I think we're rushing to it too quickly," Impact owner Joey Saputo said Wednesday from Montreal.<

"I think there's a lot of good to it, but at the same time I think there might be a lot of bad in it and may affect us negatively. And unfortunately we're making decisions today without really looking at the full scope of how it's going to affect the game, not only in Montreal and in Vancouver and Toronto, but across the country."<

Bob Lenarduzzi, director of soccer operations for the Whitecaps, is on the same page as Saputo.<

"We seem to be putting far too much emphasis on one MLS team in our country, and that being a cure to our woes at the international level. I don't think it's going to work that way," he said from Vancouver.<

A former national team coach, Lenarduzzi knows firsthand how Canadian soccer has paid the price for poor infrastructure.<

"Everyone can blame the national team coaches, but as far as our game goes we have not been doing a good job from bottom to top," he said from Vancouver. "We need to start at the bottom. We need to build a strong foundation and move on from there.<

"I think we're starting to do that. MLS coming along at a time when we're putting the bricks in place, it just seems like it's too soon."<

He says Canada's pro clubs, the provincial soccer associations and CSA should be working together "from the bottom up."<

Added Saputo: "I don't think we are ready. I don't think Canada is ready. . . . I don't think that by having one MLS franchise in Canada are we going to really develop the game we need to develop it." <<Break>> <

Lenarduzzi worries a single MLS team in Toronto will continue the fragmentation that has hurt the Canadian soccer.<

"That's not a knock on MLS either," he said. "I think MLS has done great things for the game in the United States. And at the appropriate time, anyone in the soccer world in Canada would love to be a part of playing in the best league in North America."<

But both the Impact and Whitecaps, considered model franchises in the second-tier United Soccer League, stand to lose if the first-tier MLS comes to Toronto.<

"What is going to be the reaction from the fans in Montreal, knowing they have become a second division (team)? What's going to be the reaction from the fans in Vancouver when the Whitecaps become a second division (team)?" asked Saputo.<

Top players will be drawn to the MLS franchise because of its higher profile and pay.<

"It's going to do that, that's a fact," said Lenarduzzi. "It's also going to probably result in, if we want to keep some of those players, spending more money than we have been spending.<

"The broadcast side of it, if they're on national television, that comes back into our markets.<

"What I don't want to portray is that we're upset with MLS or MLSE, We just feel the time is wrong. And it should be more of a co-ordinated approach. Especially when you've got two owners like Saputo and (Vancouver's Greg) Kerfoot."<

Kevan Pipe, the CSA's chief operating officer, responds by saying the Impact are already seeing domestic talent like Sandro Grande leaving for the greener pastures of Europe.<

And he argues the opportunity to hook up MLS, MLSE and the Toronto stadium project could not be missed.<

"We can't wait," Pipe said. "To buy into that argument says that we wait for another five years. MLSE has many opportunities to move in many other different directions. . . . That argument has to be categorically rejected. We cannot continue to wait for other rainbows occurring on other days. The time to move is now."<

Saputo doesn't see it that way.<

"If it's good today, I think it'll be better in the future," he said.<

"If there's an opportunity for Kevan Pipe and the CSA to have their stadium and at the same time that they have their stadium, they're able to get an MLS franchise, you grab it when it's hot," he acknowledged. "But that's not necessarily the best thing. I think what you need to take a look at is how is this particular decision going to affect development of the game across the country."<

The Toronto Lynx, the third Canadian USL franchise, had previously objected to MLS in Toronto but seems to have come round to the idea of playing in the proposed new stadium, according to local reports. <<Break>> <

^Notes@: The Whitecaps are planning to announce a 15,000-seat stadium on the waterfront by the cruise ship terminal near the Pan Pacific Hotel. The team, which has already bought the land, hopes the federal government may be interested in getting involved like it has with the Toronto stadium. No price tag has been set, but it is expected to be in the ball park of the $60 million the Toronto facility will cost.<

[Winnipeg Fury]

I agree completely:

Lenarduzzi worries a single MLS team in Toronto will continue the fragmentation that has hurt the Canadian soccer

[403 Addick]

quote:Originally posted by Silvio

"We seem to be putting far too much emphasis on one MLS team in our country, and that being a cure to our woes at the international level. I don't think it's going to work that way," he said from Vancouver.

"Everyone can blame the national team coaches, but as far as our game goes we have not been doing a good job from bottom to top," he said from Vancouver. "We need to start at the bottom. We need to build a strong foundation and move on from there.<

"...we're putting the bricks in place, it just seems like it's too soon."

He says Canada's pro clubs, the provincial soccer associations and CSA should be working together "from the bottom up."

"I don't think we are ready. I don't think Canada is ready. . . . I don't think that by having one MLS franchise in Canada are we going to really develop the game we need to develop it."

These are HUGE points! Lenarduzzi and Saputo are dead on when they talk about development, a professional team is the last piece of the football puzzle for a country not a building block. Reorganizing the youth programs and getting the kids to play the game more is key to developing the game over here.

Toronto couldn't even support or field a decent team in the USL, and even though they might be able to support an MLS team it will not do anything good for football in this country. A few kids will watch the MLS and go home and kick the ball around for 20 minutes as well as the elite will benefit from the academy but besides that, the MLS offers nothing!

Toronto needs to follow the examples set by Montreal and Vancouver. Yeah due to T.O.'s size it could possibly skip the development step and have a successful MLS club, but they still won't be able to develop the quality players that they should! The first step is getting kids to play football/futsal on the small pitch as much as they play shinny on the pond.

[403 Addick]

quote:Originally posted by Silvio

"We seem to be putting far too much emphasis on one MLS team in our country, and that being a cure to our woes at the international level. I don't think it's going to work that way," he said from Vancouver.

"Everyone can blame the national team coaches, but as far as our game goes we have not been doing a good job from bottom to top," he said from Vancouver. "We need to start at the bottom. We need to build a strong foundation and move on from there.<

"...we're putting the bricks in place, it just seems like it's too soon."

He says Canada's pro clubs, the provincial soccer associations and CSA should be working together "from the bottom up."

"I don't think we are ready. I don't think Canada is ready. . . . I don't think that by having one MLS franchise in Canada are we going to really develop the game we need to develop it."

These are HUGE points! Lenarduzzi and Saputo are dead on when they talk about development, a professional team is the last piece of the football puzzle for a country not a building block. Reorganizing the youth programs and getting the kids to play the game more is key to developing the game over here.

Toronto couldn't even support or field a decent team in the USL, and even though they might be able to support an MLS team it will not do anything good for football in this country. A few kids will watch the MLS and go home and kick the ball around for 20 minutes as well as the elite will benefit from the academy but besides that, the MLS offers nothing!

Toronto needs to follow the examples set by Montreal and Vancouver. Yeah due to T.O.'s size it could possibly skip the development step and have a successful MLS club, but they still won't be able to develop the quality players that they should! The first step is getting kids to play football/futsal on the small pitch as much as they play shinny on the pond.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I agree completely:

Lenarduzzi worries a single MLS team in Toronto will continue the fragmentation that has hurt the Canadian soccer

I think Bobby is missing something. MLS would not expand to three or even two Canadian cities at one time. Someone has to be first and if that causes fragmentization, well someone was going to cause it.

Both Bobby/Kerfoot and Joey Saputo should be grateful that someone is willing to take the chance before either of them have to do so. If it succeeds, their road is paved. If it fails, they can say I told you so.

db

[Richard]

<If it succeeds, their road is paved. If it fails, they can say I told you so.>

Agreed. I think Bob is wrong on this one. Perhaps it is a reaction to Whitecaps thunder over the Vancouver stadium and potential move up to MLS being stolen a bit.

[DoyleG]

The success of Montreal and Vancouver only proves that you don't need big dollars in order to make a successful run of it in professional soccer. A modest increase and the Lynx can run for several years on the money MLSE would spend on a single expansion fee. Seems more that Kevin Pipe and his cohorts have seemingly forgotten the idea of "bigger is better" doesn't always work. Yet Pipe is seemingly ready to take down Canadian Soccer (Since an MLS failure would have much more of a psychological blow)with him. Is he trying to cement a legacy for himself by '07 or is he trying to aim for a senior position with the proposed MLS club. Pipe still seems to forget that it was the USL teams that propped up much of the National Team for so long.

The insertion of MLS Toronto would relegate the rest of the country to second-tier status regardless of they already have a pro team or not. It would simpley drive off anyone who wants to invest in soccer in this country. MLSE jumping the gun would mean that we won't see any MLS teams in other parts of Canada or several years. That is if MLSE is willing to allow rivals to jump into the pie or MLSE doesn't leave a scar behind as the result of their failure.

The Lynx wouldn't stand a chance of long term survival since MLSE would see the Lynx as a threat to their bottom line. While people may see only a couple of thousand fans at a game as insignificant, MLSE would see those as a few thousand not taking the MLSE experience. This would most certainly lead to MLSE dropping ticket prices enough that they would be cheaper to what the Lynx offer.That is of course based on if MLSE would allow them into the stadium in the first place.

The sad part is that no one in the Toronto matter (MLS, CSA, or MLSE) has done their homework in this matter. All of this over a stadium that was supposed to be built for the '07 WYC.[}]

[Elias]

So an American 2nd Division side in Toronto is better than an American 1st Division side?? HUH?? Seriously, somebody please explain this logic to me.

Did Triple AAA baseball fail in the west because of the Blue Jays?

What does a Toronto MLS team have to do with other teams anywhere else in the country? If anything, it will raise the profile of soccer in this country, and if the Caps and Impact are as strong as all of you pretend, then they will be able to capitalize on it in their local markets. I don't think too many people from Vancouver are going to be flying to Toronto to watch MLS. And I doubt most Toronto MLS games will be available nationally on tv. So there are only benefits. Sure, they will lose a couple players, but if those players are any good, they would lose them anyways.

It looks like Vancouver and Montreal are back to what they do best, whining.

[yankiboy]

Wah, Wah, Wah.

D@mn Saputo gets on my nerves... So f******** what! The Rochester Rhinos, Richmond Kickers, Virginia Beach--just off the top of my head--US based USL clubs can get MLS club broadcasts on their local cabel outlets. And that is not even talking ESPN and Fox.

It's second division soccer. In life, you usually get what you get what you pay for. The fact that some of the USL teams step up their game and beat MLS clubs is a bonus but it is not to be expected.

Saputo is full of ********. He has already made it clear that he doesn't like the MLS single entity system. He doesn't want to buy in. He doesn't want to pay that kind of expansion fee or those kind of salaries or operating expenses. Now he's crying like a little beatch. I can't stand that guy. What does he want everything given to him.

Kerfoot has a lot of ca$h to. His crying is annoying but not like Saputo. I can't stand that guy.

[nolando]

Let's get real here people. Besides the fact that Montreal could beat any number of MLS sides on a given night, Toronto and Vancouver fans have nothing to worry about when MLS comes becuase they already know they are supporting second division sides. Give them some credit. It's like the AHL versus the NHL. As good as the Syracuses and Rochesters might have ever been (and they could have mowed through many NHL teams in their haydays), they always were second division sides, and the fans knew that and respected that. Enough said. I really think the Toronto issue may eventually push the envelope towards SERIOUSLY restructuring pro soccer in North America. Allign divisions, insert promotion and relegation (are you telling me fans wouldnt love this in ultracompetitive North America?) and RESPECT the fans. We are not idiots here. We know what level of soccer we are supporting. For chrissakes, look at us Voyageurs for an example.

[argh1]

The question to be asked is....will GTA support MLS after the novelty of the (hopefully) new digs are built? I don't see alot of MLS threads on this board and we follow soccer. I could go on for pages on my view point on MLS in Canader but I've said it all before.

But what is the awareness of MLS in the GTA because from the fans viewpoint this won't be Canada's team it's the folk in the GTA that'll have to buy tickets.

I wish MLSE success but I'm wary of Joe Schmoe's acceptance.

Bringing AHL or AAA baseball into this seems moot as soccer in general is almost considered a second rate sport let alone any ratings given to leagues. So Whitecaps and L'Impact I think in the short term should be alright. Even in the States Arena football is stronger than soccer for gawds sake.

Will there be an epiphany about soccer in the GTA because MLS has decided to accept MLSE's loonies?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I also disagree with both Saputo and Lenarduzzi. First, as said, it is clear that if it is going to happen it can only happen step by step, and the first step has to happen somewhere. Turns out it happens precisely where the 2nd division North American team in Canada is the weakest, where the hole is biggest. And where the CSA and federal government have given priority for a stadium to be built, logically in the nation's largest city.

Second, as said, everyone in Van and Mtl knows that they are already playing in the 2nd tier. That won't change. I am sure fans will continue to show up. Toronto Lynx were not even a decent enough rival for either to affect attendance when they appeared. USL first division is a good deal for the price, an accessible level of play. The next step is way more expensive.

I think neither club is recognizing that for all their know-how, the way to get a franchise of this type is not through a rich owner and a fine club tradition, it has much more to do with having a major enterprise to handle the whole thing professionally. Meaning an MLSE with no soccer experience has the edge over monied owners with teams that are doing well on and off the field and in general are well run.

Finally, I think that having a team in Toronto or anywhere in Canada does indeed raise the potential level of play for a dozen Canadian players, who will also be available to the national team coach without great travel headaches (though once again the MLS's refusal to respect FIFA dates is even worse for us, and will be even more so with a base of the national team on an MLS Toronto squad, if it comes to that; they have to change playing dates or we will indeed suffer).

[An Observer]

Reading between the lines, this is a concerted effort by Vancouver and Montreal to get themselves into the MLS either with Toronto in 2007 or very soon thereafter....they are laying the ground work for a deal with the CSA and MLS on this issue. There comments are very positive on MLS, but all focused on "we are not ready" or there would be fragmentation, etc....which I read as they are not ready and they don't want Toronto to poach their players....and if they could agree to be in by 2008, they will retain their players...and they will then jump on the MLS bandwagon...they just want the CSA to push for them to be in

And Pipe's comments are right on...there is an opportunity through the 2007 WYC to get a stadium...and MLSE are willing to come on as owners of an MLS side now, and not wait 5 years...that certainly doesn't prevent a new Toronto MLS side from developing a youth system.

[Gian-Luca]

I think the suggestions that it is too soon to have one MLS team from a developmental point of view are ridiculous. We have are already producing so many good players at a youth level who have nowhere to go once they graduate out of the U20 or NCAA program in the US except into Europe if they are lucky (and especially if they have a work permit), and when we finally giving them a home at a higher level of play in Canada we want to declare that its too soon? Its long overdue.

What they are really saying is that its too soon for them personally because they feel like their teams will suffer at the gate with Toronto in MLS, as they are worried that it will be too much of a success in Toronto. As many have stated, fans in Vancouver & Montreal already know that their team is in the 2nd tier of North American soccer. And is having the MLS as a huge success in Toronto really a bad thing for Canadian soccer, something that we want to discourage?

For once, I agree wholeheartedly with what Kevan Pipe says. Which makes me feel a bit strange typing that, but its the truth.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I

What they are really saying is that its too soon for them personally because they feel like their teams will suffer at the gate with Toronto in MLS, as they are worried that it will be too much of a success in Toronto. As many have stated, fans in Vancouver & Montreal already know that their team is in the 2nd tier of North American soccer.

Well this is one of the arguments that I have always conceded to the MLS detractors. You stated that fans in Mtl and Van already know that USL is second tier, but I am not so sure of that. I am convinced that if you even walked around the stands at centennial during any given Lynx game and asked people if they knew of MLS, most probably wouldn't. They can probably figure it out that the league is not top tier given the facilities and product, but do they know of MLS? That will now change with MLSE involved and the the new facility. But how will fans in Mtl and van feel of their product if suddenly they are seeing weekly Toronto mls games on TSN or sportsnet.

Still the benefits, as I have stated numerous times, will outweigh the drawbacks. And, You have to start somewhere.

[beachesl]

“Pair up in threes.” --Yogi Berra

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

“Pair up in threes.” --Yogi Berra

"It ain't over 'till it's over"

and "where's the pic-a-nic baskets" ---Yogi Bear and Bo Bo

But my fav stupid saying will always be Joey Smallwood....."Hundreds and hundreds of jobs for thousands and thousands of people"

[zacRWE]

I am down for MLS in Toronto. I know the product and the owners in Toronto and though I am content with the product (because I love soccer no matter what) it is the owners of the Lynx that kill me, thats why I have turned to MLS support. really, If the Lynx were run like the Impact or 'Caps I wouldent be so welcoming towords MLS. I can kinda see through the MLSE, I know that this is a money adventure for them, not a move because of their passion for the beautiful game. I am appluding them however for putting their foot in the door and making a commitment to first division soccer in Canada.

Funny enough I have found that there is a buzz right now regarding MLS. Many of my friends do not follow soccer, some detest it, yet i've found them asking me questions about the move. Does this not proove that with the proper support, financing, promotion and legitimancy the team could succeed?

[RealGooner]

These guys are jokers. MLS in Toronto (especially backed by the media-connected leafs) will draw attention to the sport. Sorry guys Kevin Pipe is right. We have an opportunity here and we're going for it. Deal with it.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

You stated that fans in Mtl and Van already know that USL is second tier, but I am not so sure of that. I am convinced that if you even walked around the stands at centennial during any given Lynx game and asked people if they knew of MLS, most probably wouldn't.

Well I'm not so sure that we can conclude that the crowds at Centennial are typical of those in Vancouver & Montreal, but also who are you referring to - the kids at Centennial? If Montreal & Vancouver's crowds are full of nothing but kids, I doubt they would care too much if you told them that Toronto has a team in a different league. They also would not be what I would consider to be "fans" (which is the word I used deliberately) but 'spectators". I think a lot of the older fans in Montreal & Vancouver are aware of the MLS and know there team isn't currently in it.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I insist on my argument that there is a hole to be filled in Toronto precisely because the Hartrells do not have the clout of a Saputo or Kerfoot: that way MLS can pick out MLSE and they can walk right in, basically without having to ask please to the Lynx. This would be unthinkable in Mtl or Van.

But listen carefully to Garber again, and he seems to think that MLSE could continue in Canada with other franchises, that they would have a role in setting it up. As if MLSE would be given Canada as their territory to exploit for MLS. That single entity and various teams owned by the same guys model repeated. The part about the league I dislike the most. And that must be what bothers the multi-millionaire owners in the other potential franchise cities, that maybe MLS will try to repeat the trick in their faces. Good reason for them to be moving on stadiums on either flank of TO, and owning them themselves, with municipal support in both cases, so no MLSE hotshots who have never paid attention to the game of soccer could ever walk in and take control of their hard-earned market without their say, thinking that the Impact and Whitecaps can be picked on as easily as the Lynx.

[The Beaver]

Some interesting points, guys. A few quick thoughts:

If MLSE was given exclusive rights to develop all of Canada as its territory, then I could fully understand the protestations from Saputo and Lernaduzzi. I suspect the larger reason that the Impact and 'Caps might be critical of the Toronto MLS deal happening right now is that they know its presense--MLS in Toronto--will put pressure on both their franchises to push for their own MLS teams sooner than they might have wanted to. I'm sure they'd much rather occupy their new stadiums for a few years BEFORE handing over another lump of cash for expansion and all the attendant new overhead etc. Perhaps this is an oversimplified view of the issue, but I think there is something to it. Mind you, if the Saputos and Kerfoot are building the only new soccer specific stadiums in their cities, it seems unlikely that they'd need to rush into the MLS anyways. I mean, will MLSE build new stadiums in Vancouver and Montreal too (getting back to the first point.)

Like Jeffrey pointed out, getting a top tier league in Canada would take steps, and one of the first ones is to start with Toronto. Yeah, it would have been nice to have all 3 Canandian teams enter the league at the same time, but the sheer logistics of making that happen before I'm dead is unfathomable. And I ain't that old--yet.

I want to see MLS in Vancouver and Montreal--and Calgary and Edmonton--and unless there is a truly viable, deep-pocketed idea for a Canadian league out there, I cannot imagine a better option for soccer in "Anglo" North America. (Not to upset our French-Canadian Voyageurs, of which I am at least a nominal member.)

[Moosehead]

The CSA should work on forming a Canadian league even Iraq and Afghanistan got their leagues up an running but somehow it can't work in Canada. Pipe is trying to save his job by this Mls in Toronto deal and it is the easiest but not the best route to go.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

I want to see MLS in Vancouver and Montreal--and Calgary and Edmonton--and unless there is a truly viable, deep-pocketed idea for a Canadian league out there, I cannot imagine a better option for soccer in "Anglo" North America. (Not to upset our French-Canadian Voyageurs, of which I am at least a nominal member.)

There won't be MLS in Edmonton and Calgary.

Period.

[SamIAm]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

I want to see MLS in Vancouver and Montreal--and Calgary and Edmonton--and unless there is a truly viable, deep-pocketed idea for a Canadian league out there, I cannot imagine a better option for soccer in "Anglo" North America. (Not to upset our French-Canadian Voyageurs, of which I am at least a nominal member.)

I just have a quick question. I know that around the world some countries divide the continents up differently, in Canada do you all learn that Mexico is not part of North America? Because when I visit the forums on these topics here North America just seems to be the US and Canada.