Whitecaps' and Impact's take on MLS to Toronto

[RS]

I was taught that N. America consisted of Canada, US and Mexico.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I was taught that N. America consisted of Canada, US and Mexico.

Thats the point that he is getting at. It is Can, US, Mex and even central america. But if you to many canadians refer to NA, they totally ignore anyone else. Have to agree that its a very hypocritical practise of many canadians. Many of whom are very quick to point to american ignorance of Canada.

[beachesl]

Having lived in Mexico, I can say that the Mexicans themselves do not consider themselves to be part of North America. They just consider their continent to be "America". North America means the USA, pure and simple (and Americans they call "Norte Americanos", "Americanos" to them being synomonous to Latin-Americans). Canada is just a tacked-on anomaly to the Mexicans, like we would view Greenland (also part of North America) that is not really in their general consciousness, and Canadians are some sort of "nicer version of Americans".

Canadians do view themselves culturally as "North Americans", which in our consciousness would be us and the Americans, and not the Mexicans. Linguistically, we speak the General American dialect of English, and culturally there is no closer resembalnce between two countries in the world than us and the US. Culturally, Mexico is on a completely different sphere. "Noram" in sports and defence terms means us and the US. The geological significance of the term "North America" is of minor importance compared to the other significances.

For what is is worth, both FIFA and CONCACAF consider Canada, Mexico and the US to be North America, one of thwe three regions in CONCACAF (like the AFC is divided into three regions). Bermuda used to be part of North America for these pusrposes, but has long since been part of the Carribean region.

[Gian-Luca]

It should be noted that Beaver said "Anglo" North America, meaning that he was deliberately referring to the countries that predominantly speak English (as opposed to the Spanish speaking Mexicans).

Keep in mind, the old NASL didn't include any Mexican teams, but its still called itself that. Its the root of calling a US & Canada league as "North American" league, at least for me.

North American also includes Bermuda, in my book. Look at its location on a map.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by SamIAm

I just have a quick question. I know that around the world some countries divide the continents up differently, in Canada do you all learn that Mexico is not part of North America? Because when I visit the forums on these topics here North America just seems to be the US and Canada.

I'm not sure if you are wondering if The Beaver himself knows that Mexico is part of North America--hard to tell from your post--but just in case you figured I didn't know this fact, I will point out my deliberate use of "Anglo" North America, which would refer to Canada and the USA (and Bermuda and Jamaica, I suppose), since we our official languages are English (English AND French in the True North Strong and Libre).

While we're on it, did you guys all know that Guatamala and El Salvador and Cuba and Honduras et al are part of North America? (I learned this in a Canadian school, too.)

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Having lived in Mexico, I can say that the Mexicans themselves do not consider themselves to be part of North America. They just consider their continent to be "America". North America means the USA, pure and simple (and Americans they call "Norte Americanos", "Americanos" to them being synomonous to Latin-Americans). Canada is just a tacked-on anomaly to the Mexicans, like we would view Greenland (also part of North America) that is not really in their general consciousness, and Canadians are some sort of "nicer version of Americans".

Canadians do view themselves culturally as "North Americans", which in our consciousness would be us and the Americans, and not the Mexicans. Linguistically, we speak the General American dialect of English, and culturally there is no closer resembalnce between two countries in the world than us and the US. Culturally, Mexico is on a completely different sphere. "Noram" in sports and defence terms means us and the US. The geological significance of the term "North America" is of minor importance compared to the other significances.

For what is is worth, both FIFA and CONCACAF consider Canada, Mexico and the US to be North America, one of thwe three regions in CONCACAF (like the AFC is divided into three regions). Bermuda used to be part of North America for these pusrposes, but has long since been part of the Carribean region.

Yes, but what Mexicans think and what is "reality" are wildly different things. Unless they want to make some appeal to the international body responsible for dividing up the continents, they are part of North America.

As for Greenland, I'd no idea it was part of North America. I thought it was part of Europe, being somehow "owned" by the Danes. Mind you, there's some island near the mouth of the St. Lawrence that the damned French still lay claim to. (I say we invade.)

[yankiboy]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Having lived in Mexico, I can say that the Mexicans themselves do not consider themselves to be part of North America. They just consider their continent to be "America". North America means the USA, pure and simple (and Americans they call "Norte Americanos", "Americanos" to them being synomonous to Latin-Americans). Canada is just a tacked-on anomaly to the Mexicans, like we would view Greenland (also part of North America) that is not really in their general consciousness, and Canadians are some sort of "nicer version of Americans".

Beaches is my man but I gotta throw this out there.

NAFTA. North American Free Trade Agreement, the economic commerce treaty signed between Canada, Mexico and the US.

For many Mexicans and Latin-Americans, the "norteamericano" thing is a more of a socio-political one, not geographical one. They do consider themselves to be North Americans because they are. The use of "norteamericano" is used to try to put the US in it's place because they resent the fact that we refer to ourselves as Americans. The funny thing in doing this is that they slight you Canucks as well. Coz the last time I checked, you guys are--just like them and us--"North Americans". In their attempts at political correctness, they do the same thing to you guys that they accuse us of doing--being culturally arrogant, exlcusive and insensitive to our neighbors in the hemisphere as well as not recognizing geography.

The hypocrisy is kinda of ironic, I think.

[SamIAm]

Thanks for the info. and no, I wasn't trying point out anything with my question. I just honestly wanted to know.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by SamIAm

Thanks for the info. and no, I wasn't trying point out anything with my question. I just honestly wanted to know.

No worries, mi amigo. Or is that mi ami? I've no idea.

Truth of the matter is that Canadians and Americans are sorely myopic when it comes to most matters that do not pertain to their countries. In Canada we tend to pride ourselves on being the more worldy country, one that actually knows a helluva lot more about other countries than the good ol US of A. This may be marginally true, but what I find more often than not is that Canadians are only ONE better than the US, in that US citizens tend only to know about their own country, while Canadians know about Canada and the US. Why? Because we watch US tv, that's why.

Now, if the Mexicans could come up with some really good English language TV, then maybe more of us would properly realize that Mexico is part of North America.

Damn, I'm long winded. Beers for everybody.

[Daniel]

Since the entire American continent is linked, the way people divide it up is arbitrary. Most people here think in terms of language. North America = the English speaking US and Canada, whereas Mexico would be with Central/Latin America. Mexico being in NA instead of CA is as logical as Guyana being Carribean instead of SA.

Unless there's some tectonic thing I don't know about.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Since the entire American continent is linked, the way people divide it up is arbitrary. Most people here think in terms of language. North America = the English speaking US and Canada, whereas Mexico would be with Central/Latin America. Mexico being in NA instead of CA is as logical as Guyana being Carribean instead of SA.

Unless there's some tectonic thing I don't know about.

Your right about the arbitrary nature of things. In fact, I believe, "Central America" is just a convenient grouping of neighbouring and like countries. Technically, the North American continent encompasses all the countries that we describe as NA, CA and Carribean.

[way2goeh]

I would like to know why Toronto should have a team before Vancouver or Montreal? Vancouver and Montreal have solid backing and the results show. Toronto stunk last year, in dead last place. Is this what we want to represent Canada in a franchise? I have the answer. Look at the teams that win consistently over the past years. These should be the teams who go to the 1st div. SO one word.....PROMOTION (win the 2nd div and get promoted). Anyone but TO []

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by way2goeh

I would like to know why Toronto should have a team before Vancouver or Montreal? Vancouver and Montreal have solid backing and the results show. Toronto stunk last year, in dead last place. Is this what we want to represent Canada in a franchise? I have the answer. Look at the teams that win consistently over the past years. These should be the teams who go to the 1st div. SO one word.....PROMOTION (win the 2nd div and get promoted). Anyone but TO []

Montreal doesn't see beyond Toronto.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by way2goeh

I would like to know why Toronto should have a team before Vancouver or Montreal? Vancouver and Montreal have solid backing and the results show. Toronto stunk last year, in dead last place. Is this what we want to represent Canada in a franchise? I have the answer. Look at the teams that win consistently over the past years. These should be the teams who go to the 1st div. SO one word.....PROMOTION (win the 2nd div and get promoted). Anyone but TO []

The Toronto Lynx are not going to MLS.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by way2goeh

I would like to know why Toronto should have a team before Vancouver or Montreal? Vancouver and Montreal have solid backing and the results show. Toronto stunk last year, in dead last place. Is this what we want to represent Canada in a franchise? I have the answer. Look at the teams that win consistently over the past years. These should be the teams who go to the 1st div. SO one word.....PROMOTION (win the 2nd div and get promoted). Anyone but TO []

There is no promotion and relegation in North American professional leagues, in any sport.

[way2goeh]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

There is no promotion and relegation in North American professional leagues, in any sport.

there should be

[RJB]

I'm concerned that Kevan Pipe says that he can't wait to get into business with MLSE. I know they've got lots of money, but why must we rush into business with them? Who are they that causes us to throw caution to the wind?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

I'm concerned that Kevan Pipe says that he can't wait to get into business with MLSE. I know they've got lots of money, but why must we rush into business with them? Who are they that causes us to throw caution to the wind?

They also are a highly respected sports business operation, well known across North America through their involvement with the Leafs and raptors. They have the kind of media clout that could give the Toronto MLS team a higher profile than any soccer team has ever had in Canada. We are not throwing caution to the wind here.

[Richard]

I would like to see the MLSE detractors name their preferred alternative to MLSE as owner/operator of an MLS club in Toronto. How about it guys, whom do you suggest, who do you think has better credentials in the pro sports entertainment arena, who else has even shown a tiny spark of interest?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I would like to see the MLSE detractors name their preferred alternative to MLSE as owner/operator of an MLS club in Toronto. How about it guys, whom do you suggest, who do you think has better credentials in the pro sports entertainment arena, who else has even shown a tiny spark of interest?

Richard you know the answer to that question.

Like they say in the badboy furniture ads:

Nooooooo Body!!!!!!!

[Richard]

Exactly. So it is MLSE or no MLS for now, take your pick.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Exactly. So it is MLSE or no MLS for now, take your pick.

LOL, thats the point. Some people on this board have been quite clear that they would rather have no MLS. That makes MLSE and the CSA targets not surprisingly

[Richard]

Well if the whole stadium and MLS thing happens in Toronto there will be egg on a lot of people's faces, not the least one particular poster here of Dutch origin. If it doesn't happen it will really be just ho-hum business as usual. Our three USL clubs will still be around.

Personally I hope it does come to fruition and that in due course we have at least three entries. MLS is clearly the top division in NA. The second divison USL can continue with franchises in second tier Canadian cities. Arguing against joining the MLS as soon as possible is just perpetuating Canadian mediocrity really.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Well if the whole stadium and MLS thing happens in Toronto there will be egg on a lot of people's faces, not the least one particular poster here of Dutch origin. If it doesn't happen it will really be just ho-hum business as usual. Our three USL clubs will still be around.

Personally I hope it does come to fruition and that in due course we have at least three entries. MLS is clearly the top division in NA. The second divison USL can continue with franchises in second tier Canadian cities. Arguing against joining the MLS as soon as possible is just perpetuating Canadian mediocrity really.

Exactly. There is no good reason why three SSS should be built in Canada and not be host to the top league in North America, just because some people want all of us to wait a generation for a CSL. Having 30 odd Canadians playing MLS calibre soccer WILL do wonders for our world standing.

[Richard]

Dreaming of and even working towards a CSL2 is a laudable objective but it will never match the MLS in terms of competitveness. MLS is the de facto pinnacle of NA achievement for Canadian players not willing or able to ply their trade outside NA, whether or not there are Canadian MLS teams. Not encouraging and supporting a Canadian entry into MLS as soon as possible is really denying Canadian players a wonderful opportunity. Worrying about draining players from our three USL entries is also quite silly. This is normal progression of players up through the lower leagues to the first division, it happens everywhere else in the world why not here too?