Gold Cup post-mortem

[jonovision]

Not sure if this warrants starting a new thread, or if there is a better place for it. But I couldn't find one, so...

What are people's thoughts on the implications of the Gold Cup for the future of Canada's national team, with respect to things like player selection?

Which players saw their stock rise at the Gold Cup? Drop like a rock?

I'll start it off, but I didn't see any of the matches, so I am going entirely from people's comments.

Stock rising:

Hutchinson: Scored a goal, was arguably the best player on the team in two different positions.

Peters: Sounded like he was dangerous, perhaps did some to repair what might be considered a weak WYC tournament, though I think he was injured at the time

Stock dropping:

Leduc: Interesting callup, but people seemed in agreement that he wasn't international calibre.

Couldn't get any lower:

CONCACAF officating: No comment needed.

Please discuss.

[The Ref]

I entirely agree with Atiba Hutchinson. He was the best Canadian of the Gold Cup. He would be my choice for a top team. I think Josh Simpson showed a lot of improvement and he deserves another try. Greg Sutton seems to be on his way as the number 1 keeper, but I am not fully convinced. He needs to show more leadership and command. The rest of the players aren't good enough. Coach Yallop seemed unable to solve our attacking strategy so it would result in more shots if not more goals. Yallop would not be my choice for coach.

[redandwhite]

I'd have to say,

Stock rising:

Hitchinson - I always liked this guy before but, as you said, the fact that he played well at two entirely different positions means he has a bright future.

Peters - Again, I agree that Peters can be dangerous on the right side. Hope he gets to start a game one day.

Simpson - He has the right idea. Our defenders usually stay deep but Simpson is very good at pushing the ball up.

Stock dropping:

Occean, Gerba - These are not our strikers of the future. Here's hoping Hume steps up one day.

DeRo - I'm a fan of DeRo but he really must be in his own world. He's trying too hard to outplay opponents on natural skills rather than tactics.

Pernier - Bad touch after bad touch.

Counldn't get any lower:

Our ranking.

[canso]

Seeing Atiba play in central midfield (finally) should cement his place as the first name on the team sheet. He's got great vision and I love his calm, languid style. He also started to show some authority when things were getting desparate and the fact that he has it in him to step up and hit a World Class strike from that distance at that stage of the game just proves his character and leadership qualities. I'm not gonna make any crazy comparisons to Zidane or anything, but he does have a similar ability to shield the ball and keep play moving by making the simple pass. Combine him with the energetic close control of DeGuzman and you've got a Ferrari in the engine room.

Sandro Grande and Patrick TheDuck on the other hand make more of a Ford...affordable but keeps breaking down.

[SeanKeay]

I dont kno, if Occean and Ali score so much in there leagues, how can they not score for our team.

1. Bad tournament, but hell that cant happen can it?

2. The are not getting in to the same spots to score?

3. There is no creative midfielder to give them the ball

4. There not good enough

Notice how everyone just HAS to say, there not good enough...Ali and Olivier are both young guys who can put the ball in the net, and now because they had 1 semi bad tourney everyones jumpin on there backs.

[SeanKeay]

Oh, btw... i still believe that Josh simpson should play midfield with brennan behind him

[Alberto7]

These comments are based on the two games I saw(I did not catch the game against Costa Rica):

Stock rising: Agree with you all about Hutchinson. I would also place Gerba and Grande here. Grande had limited time in the game against the USA but I thought he played very well against Cuba. Gerba played very well against Cuba(considering this was only his 4th international game). His finishing needs a bit of work but more games with the National team will see to that. Remember he is only 22. I was also very impressed with Sutton. No bad goals whatsoever. I agree with those who said he needs to be more of a leader but that will come.

Also very impressed with Peeters who played with a lot more confidence than we've seen before.

Stock Falling: Leduc was, how should I put this? Not up to par. He looked lost out there. I don't see any more callups in his case.

DeRosario was having all kinds of trouble and his frustration showed in everything he did. I am hoping that this is only temporary and that he will find his form.

Occean was not effective at all. To quote Craig Forrest, "simply not good enought at this level"(or something like that).

Couldn't get any lower: Frank Yallop getting a red card in the last game. I mean, come on, he is supposed to lead by example. He is the one who kept preaching patience to his players and yet he loses his cool and gets kicked out.

[MikeD]

quote:Originally posted by SeanKeay

Ali and Olivier are both young guys who can put the ball in the net, and now because they had 1 semi bad tourney everyones jumpin on there backs.

I second this. They're both young. I have no idea whether our next great striker to emerge will be one of those two guys, or Hume, or Ademolu, or Johnson, or Friend, or somebody else entirely. But to write off Occean and Gerba at 22-23 years of age is insane. The one thing I know for sure is that our target men will all start scoring more once Peters is ready to play regularly on the right - that kid can is going to set-up a lot of goals for us.

On switching up Simpson and Brennan - the jury is still out for me on this because I'm not sure how much we can fairly read into the performance of two guys who were both out of season. Let's see what kind of season each of them has over in England this year.

[BearcatSA]

Stock rising: Hutchinson. Tough break with own goal, but superb in an emergency role in centre defence, proving that pace in that position is still very crucial, and his composure on the ball helped make us play out of danger in the back. Great goal from midfield, would like to see him in the attacking mid role more in the future. My only suggestion to him: put on some more ballast! (Stay away from Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, et al, to do it, however!)

Good tactical move: Grande as the holding midfielder for the final match, playing in front of the back line. Distributes well to all parts of the field from that position, Claude Makele-ish role.

Pleasant surprise: Simpson vs the US, then as a sub vs Cuba. To me, he's still an inconsistent player, but he improved vastly over his CR performance. Way to go, Josh!

Head scratcher? This will be my last comment about Leduc... but he must have had one hell of a training camp. No international future, IMO

Looks good in a uniform, but...: Bernier, though he puts that brawn to go use defensively

[BearcatSA]

Stock rising: Hutchinson. Tough break with own goal, but superb in an emergency role in centre defence, proving that pace in that position is still very crucial, and his composure on the ball helped make us play out of danger in the back. Great goal from midfield, would like to see him in the attacking mid role more in the future. My only suggestion to him: put on some more ballast! (Stay away from Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, et al, to do it, however!)

Good tactical move: Grande as the holding midfielder for the final match, playing in front of the back line. Distributes well to all parts of the field from that position, Claude Makele-ish role.

Pleasant surprise: Simpson vs the US, then as a sub vs Cuba. To me, he's still an inconsistent player, but he improved vastly over his CR performance. Way to go, Josh!

Head scratcher? This will be my last comment about Leduc... but he must have had one hell of a training camp. No international future, IMO

Looks good in a uniform, but...: Bernier, though he puts that brawn to go use defensively

[canso]

OK Kids, Here's your report card, make sure you get them signed by your club manager, except for you Frank, you need to go to the principal's office.

Atiba Hutchinson = A+

excellent display in midfield after filling in at the back and scored a cracker to make up for the own goal. True International class.

Iain Hume = A (incomplete)

changed the face of the game when he came in. I can only hope he spends less time on the bench.

Greg Sutton = B+

did the necessary but still needs to get over his shyness and start talking. It's ok Greg, some people are just born looking like a stick figure. Be confident.

Gabriel Gervais = B+

showed strength and leadership. needs to spend less time fiddling with his hairpiece.

Josh Simpson = B

improving all the time and made some exciting runs. still makes one or two horrendous mistakes at the back per game, but seems to have a charmed life.

Jamie Peeters = B-

One trick pony...but what a trick! Can't wait till he's able to play a full match.

Olivier Occean = C+

did everything he needed to...except score goals. recommending a sports psychologist.

Chris Pozniak = C+

did well on the wrong side of the backline. should get more playing time.

Sandro Grande = C+

Solid performer, plays the holding role well. Not good enough to start on the A team though.

Adrian Serioux = C

Showed flashes of real quality and fighting spirit, but got carried away with himself.

Kevin McKenna = C

Showed he wants the armband but needs to keep his cool if he wants to keep it.

Ali Gerba = C

scored accidentally, lacks initiative and drive. has the tools, but not the will.

Jim Brennan = C-

Hard to remember if he was playing or not, needs to step up and show the way.

Dwayne DeRosario = DD++

double d was doubly dissapointing. was even frustrating himself by the end. younger students look up to him, but becoming a liability on the field.

Patrice Bernier = D

Abysmal first touch, but did show some good pace and a nice cross. Should move to right back.

Adam Brasz = D

Lots of effort but not much skill. Better suited to trade school. Plumber perhaps?

Patrick LeDuc = F

You are the weakest link. Good bye and good luck.

[canso]

OK Kids, Here's your report card, make sure you get them signed by your club manager, except for you Frank, you need to go to the principal's office.

Atiba Hutchinson = A+

excellent display in midfield after filling in at the back and scored a cracker to make up for the own goal. True International class.

Iain Hume = A (incomplete)

changed the face of the game when he came in. I can only hope he spends less time on the bench.

Greg Sutton = B+

did the necessary but still needs to get over his shyness and start talking. It's ok Greg, some people are just born looking like a stick figure. Be confident.

Gabriel Gervais = B+

showed strength and leadership. needs to spend less time fiddling with his hairpiece.

Josh Simpson = B

improving all the time and made some exciting runs. still makes one or two horrendous mistakes at the back per game, but seems to have a charmed life.

Jamie Peeters = B-

One trick pony...but what a trick! Can't wait till he's able to play a full match.

Olivier Occean = C+

did everything he needed to...except score goals. recommending a sports psychologist.

Chris Pozniak = C+

did well on the wrong side of the backline. should get more playing time.

Sandro Grande = C+

Solid performer, plays the holding role well. Not good enough to start on the A team though.

Adrian Serioux = C

Showed flashes of real quality and fighting spirit, but got carried away with himself.

Kevin McKenna = C

Showed he wants the armband but needs to keep his cool if he wants to keep it.

Ali Gerba = C

scored accidentally, lacks initiative and drive. has the tools, but not the will.

Jim Brennan = C-

Hard to remember if he was playing or not, needs to step up and show the way.

Dwayne DeRosario = DD++

double d was doubly dissapointing. was even frustrating himself by the end. younger students look up to him, but becoming a liability on the field.

Patrice Bernier = D

Abysmal first touch, but did show some good pace and a nice cross. Should move to right back.

Adam Brasz = D

Lots of effort but not much skill. Better suited to trade school. Plumber perhaps?

Patrick LeDuc = F

You are the weakest link. Good bye and good luck.

[Daniel]

I'm surprised at some of the rankings. Hume gets an A for half a game and Simpson a B for a couple of nice runs and letting the Americans cross all day? Yet Grande who was probably one of the most consistent players in the games he played (in a good way) only gets a C+??? And I don't think there was a B+ to D difference between Gervais and Braz.

I hate how Dobson completely discredited Ali's goal. He rushed to the net and tipped it nicely past the keeper. How is that accidental or a garbage goal?

I know these are all Impact players, but I think you're letting that get in the way of your judgement on THIS tournament.

[canso]

You're just a homer! :-)

[CanadasBest]

I think the only direct implication from this Gold Cup, is the emergence of Sutton as our #1 Keeper:

Stock Rising:

Sutton: Looked solid when tested. Excellent presense

Hutchinson: Looked good, especially in midfield

Simpson: Looked confident, and played well defensively

Grande: Looked Solid

Canadian Fans: Sounded good at all 3 games

Stock Dropping:

Leduc: In over his head

DeRosario: Drop him as a striker. Use him as a midfielder. I was impressed with his fitness, and his first touch on the ball I thought was world class. I was impressed at his ability to create plays, but his ability to finish those plays and score goals leaves alot to be desired.

Bernier: Gave the ball away more times than Stalteri did in the 2000 Gold Cup. But then again look where Stalteri is today.

Gerba: The only thing I was impressed with was the goal he scored. Other than that I thought he was pretty weak in both the Costa Rica and Cuba games.

[Gian-Luca]

I'm also perplexed at some of those rankings & the comments. Occean gets marked higher than Ali on what basis - missing more golden scoring opportunities? Ali scored accidentally and doesn't have the initiative or the will to play? What a load of crap. He scored on purpose, not by accident (please don't think that just because Gerry Dobson, who doesn't know dick about soccer, called the goal a "fluke", he intentionally and cleverly flicked the ball past the keeper, after having been the only striker to have the initiative and will to chase after the loose ball. Your comments couldn't be more off here.

Also giving Braz a D is insane, he performed solidly and consistently, and even helped to set up a goal. Its difficult to give any of the defenders a low mark in this tourney since none of the goals, bar the own goal by Hutchinson, was their fault.

The mark for De Rosario is also nuts, but I've already banged on about that enough in other threads.

No one deserves lower than a C, except perhaps for Leduc (even then, I'm not sure he underperformed, the fault is probably the selection to begin with) and the officiating which deserves an F in the first game and a D against the US & Cuba.

As for some of the earlier comments, how on earth can it be said that Gerba's stock is dropping is beyond me. Before the tourney started few thought he would even be on the team, and once selected few thought he would start any of the games. How do you drop from this position, and on what basis - being the only striker to score?

Nobody's stock fell, not even Leduc's, as for that to have happened it would have had to have been high in the first place and it never was. You could make an argument for Occean's stock falling, but he's another young striker having a sophomore jinx year and I doubt that he will be written off so early on simply because of this B team tourney.

[Luis_Rancagua]

Greg Sutton somewhat impressed me. It will be good if he played in a more higher caliber league than the A-League. MLS, Premiership, Scandinavia, etc... are the right fitting for this guy.

As for me, Gerba, Bernier, Braz and Leduc are the players I will not call back to the National team anymore. These players surely demonstrated no international talent whatsoever. As per Bernier in particular, I am willing to forgive him. I am not on the idea of dumping this guy right now. Let's give him some more time.

I agree with the opinion of others that Gerba has has the tools, but not the will. If this guy is to return to the National team, he has to show more effort than the mediocre performance he has been demonstrating on the field.

As per Occean, I am terribly disappointed by his performance. In Norway, he's known as a dangerous striker of which opposite teams in the Norwegian league fear him. In fact, read the Norwegian soccer sites and all they say how dangerous Occean really is. However, as for our National team, Occean struggled in both finishing and skills. I am willing to give this guy one more chance.

Nevertheless, I really miss the presense of Jason Bent and Tam Nsaliwa. I really hope that these fellows return soon. Obviously, in this case, Jason Bent will have to find a professional team if he's ever to return to National duties.

[David C.]

Stock Rising:

Other than the obvious (Hutchinson & Sutton), I found Serioux' passing and ball handling skills to be improved (which was much-needed).

Braz also surprised me, considering he was a central back playing (out of position) on the wing. He looks to be a good depth addition to the central back corp. So, does this mark the end of Nevio?

Stock Falling:

I don't know what has happened to Bernier this year. Sounds like he has taken a step back from last season (VG Nett ratings down). Funny thing is that he was praised so much (last year) for his offensive skills, whereas these were his weakpoints at the G.C. I haven't given up on him though, just concerned.

[kelownaguy]

I've always thought Atiba, Simpson, Hume and Peters were our main core so I'm glad to see them do well (although not much playing time for Hume), they showed us they are ready for this level.. Sutton also showed us he is solid enough to be a #1 keeper...for now anyways, as I believe he is better then anyone we currently have.. I'd love to see a backline involving Klukowski and Nsaliwa but who knows when that will ever happen,, so it was good to see Gervais and Braz get the job done, they definitely help with our depth chart.. I have to disagree with Canso's opinion on Grande,, I thought he was very solid,, not flashy at all but gets the job done,, I think he could start or be the 1st midfielder off the bench any day of the week for our A team.. Serioux also impressed me somewhat and helps with depth as well. I was disappointed with Bernier and DeRo ,, but you have to give them an A for effort,, it's not like they weren't trying... too soon to give up on those guys yet though.. Big question mark is at the striker position.. I hope Friend gets a shot at the next camp or friendly,,cause it's anybody's job right now...

[Kurosawa1555362267]

here's my two cent.

Hutch and Sutton did really well. Hutch should be playing in midfield more with the Nats. he is good in the back but he has more of an impact at midfield. Sutton should finnish his season with Montreal and move on, MLS??? lower division England??? Scandinavia??? I don't know but he deserves a chance.

In the back both Gervais and Braz were solid, not spectacular but reliable. The little we saw of Pozniak was also OK. Josh Simpson was also Ok but I prefered him in the midfield.

In the midfield Bernier was ordinary, he should not be playing on the wing. Grande was pretty good, probably the best player from the Montreal Impact, and remember that he had an operation only a couple months ago and he is not back to a 100%, that's why he did'nt play against the US. Brennan did not look really good. He will have to be better than that if he wants to win a regular spot in Norwich. Leduc is alright for the USL but nothing more.

Up front DeRo was frustrating doing a lot but nothing at the same time. Occean was pretty much absent and Gerba was so-so. both of them are young so maybe they can do better in the future. Who knows?

Coachnig wise Frank did OK. He did what he could with what he had, I say he can keep his job, but I hope he (and the CSA) can get us a lot of friendly's before the next Gold Cup where we have to perform in order to build our confidence for the next WCQ.

[The Ref]

In this post-mortem thread I expected to see some comments or ranking on Frank Yallop, but except for Alberto7, Kurosawa and myself all have been silent. Correct me if I am wrong, but I clearly remember posters still supporting Yallop that they would wait until after the Gold Cup to cast their vote. That if we failed to advance it was going to be curtains for Frank.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

In this post-mortem thread I expected to see some comments or ranking on Frank Yallop, but except for Alberto7, Kurosawa and myself all have been silent. Correct me if I am wrong, but I clearly remember posters still supporting Yallop that they would wait until after the Gold Cup to cast their vote. That if we failed to advance it was going to be curtains for Frank.

Yallop is starting almost literally from scracth, and IMHO doing it the proper way (testing out as many players as possible while still keeping his 'core' together, encouraging possession soccer rather than Holger-ball).

What would be the point of dropping him now?

We've already got friendlies lined up for Sept and Nov (with an Oct one in the works), so obviously the plan is to keep these guys active as much as possible. After a dismal start (which was not entirely his fault, as much as the Yallop bashers love to try to pin everything on him) Frank is starting to make his mark on the team, instead of simply using Holger's remnants.

[Derosario23]

ocean = d f whatever the worst is he doesnt belong with canada when u have the keeper beat like he did and cant put it in doesnt get any easier than that time for rob friend to come in

gerba = f he belongs in the usl

adam braz = a + was solid and did everything he could i would love to see him come back

simps hutch hume= b + n played well and are developing

sutton = our future in nets a+

bernier= c he could play better all of his shots were blocked

grande = d cant shoot if his life depends on it cant wait for stalteri and deguzman to come back

mckenna and gervais b= they were solid nuff said

dero sadly = c (can play better)

[Gian-Luca]

With respect to Yallop I wanted to see some progress with the team in this tourney before agreeing with a few others that he should be fired. The team didn't advance out of the first round, though with the group we were in, with two of the top 3 teams in the region in our group, that was always a distinct possibility. When he picked such a developmental squad (partly out of lack of choice given how many experienced players turned down the invite) it was always going to be a challenge, and third place in the group is what I would have predicted & what we got.

The main reasons we didn't go through are lack of finishing in the first two games, and hideously awful officiating. Difficult to scream too much at Yallop for either of those, unless the contention is that he should have called Rob Friend, Stephen Ademolu and Jason Jordan instead of three of DeRo, Hume, Gerba & Occean. With the exception of Friend, who Yallop should be at least be looking at given how good a year he's having, its difficult to criticize those choices without the benefit of hindsight, and further, it should be remembered that the best scoring chances in the first two games fell to players like Brennan and Bernier who missed them, rather than the strikers (who helped set them up).

Overall I am satisfied with some signs of progress. The team defended better than I thought they would with a largely 2nd choice back four, and Frank showed some sense in getting Atiba to cover at the back when necessary. The team played their way out of danger at the back in the first two games (it wasn't really necessary against Cuba) better than I can ever recall in the history of Canadian soccer, which will go a long way in getting more possession and more attacks in the future. I also like the style of play.

So as long as the signs of progress continue, I'm fine with him for the time being. (I don't think he's going anywhere anyway, which makes calling for his head a little pointless). If he continues to call-up Leduc instead of more capable players I reserve the right to change my mind, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until then.

[Cheeta]

These are allways fun threads.

Frankie's sort of off the hook on this tourny, see GLs post above as I agree with the train of thought.

Tough to judge players on this go around. The differences in plays from match to match was sometimes remarkable, and if you under-value the Cuba test, and I'm going to because it was (not unexpectedly) just too much for the lads too soon.

Stock rising and sinking? Given my own personal expectations of the players?

Rising;

Hutchison. Ground already covered by others. And I had very high expectations for Hutch at the start. Grand tourny. Grand.

Serioux. Had a great encounter against the Yanks. With all the negative crap coming out of Millwall and given he is out of season I was a bit cynical. Was so-so against CR but really showed against the Yanks. Sent off or no. A quicker Bircham with better passing skills. England has been good to him.

Sutton. It's been mentioned he should open his mouth. Be more Forrest like. If that's his style or no dosen't matter. Lean it. Did show enough and was more aggression off the line then we've yet seen. Which is good 'cause he needed to be.

Braz. Did pretty damned good. No way 1st team. He's a long, long drop off from Diesel but honestly my expectations were low and I think I owe him a tip of the hat. The man did all right.

Gervais. He's allright in my books. In fact, until such time as Klukowski or Nsaliwa show their quality Gervais has at least earned future call ups for cover at least, from the bench. Sort of an unknown quality at this level beforehand.

Falling.

de Rossario. I don't know just what exactly his malfunction is, but it need correcting. There's a time to use you teammates, there's a time to be selfish and there is more than one way to skin a cat. It's a team game, Dwayne. It's a team game.

Leduc. Can't find anything nice to say. Nothing.

Gerba. Some people have written Gerba some compliments. All I say is ???????. Oh, he can cheat into space but his quality having won that advantage is crap. Wasted opportunity after wasted opportunity. Geezus, I thought Nash retired.

Occean. Marginaly underperformed I though. 1st two matchs were okay. Actually thought as the target forward he did good and bad those 1st two matchs. Been a tough year all around for him so far and hope he bounces out of it.

Everyone else either performed as expected or played too little to really rate. Again, this is just my perception and just because a players stock may be rising or falling dosen't mean I think they've bumped, or have been bumped, into or out of my Canadian 1st team.