MLS Update

[RS]

No doubt, the content rules would be changed for the Canadian teams.

Just a thought, if Vancouver is all of a sudden in the running for an MLS franchise, could we see two Canadian teams (Toronto being the other one) enter the league at the same time? It would make sense from a logistical standpoint.

This is all idle speculation at this point, but still, food for thought.

And Gordon, I think you're giving a lot of these anti-Toronto bashers too much credit. Sure, there are some (like yourself) that are anti-one MLS team (I count myself in that group), but every discussion we've had on these board so far about MLS has degraded into an anti-Toronto tirade for a reason. The anti-Toronto brigade can never pass up taking a shot at Hogtown, no matter how asinine.

I guess my post was just a pre-emptive strike of sorts. []

[beachesl]

I'm not a big fan of Canadian soccer, but I fail to see how a MLS team in Ioronto, or elsewhere in Canada, even one that fails, can hurt the development of soccer in Canada, unless the CSA unwisely becomes an investor (and there is no evidence of that). The only person who would be hurt would be investors or unsecured creditors, and the Lynx. I can't see any negative effect on the Impact or the Whitecaps.

There are absolutely zero prospects of a Canadian league on the horizon, so that can't be hurt.

I see it as a no-lose situation affording more opportunity for Canadian players to play here, and more visibility for soccer.

The A-League debacle in Edmonton is unfortunate, but I can't really see any fall-out here (soccer is pretty well in the same state as it was a year ago, and it was fun). Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any convincing argument or evidence to the contrary.

[BrennanFan]

I hate this MLS idea primarily from an appearences point of view. What does it say about our program when we depend on development from 1 team a foreign league. How can we ever be better than the US, when they have a whole league to develop players. Its like were paying them 10 million dollars to help us by throwing us a crumb from their MLS cake. If more kids in this country play soccer than football, why cant a canadian soccer league be as successful as the CFL?

[bettermirror]

easy, brennanfan. the cfl is at least 92 years old. history means a lot.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Exactly, and if the CFL can prosper (as it currently is) then there's no reason a CSL couldn't also prosper.

There's a hell of a lot more soccer players in Canada than football.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

The A-League debacle in Edmonton is unfortunate, but I can't really see any fall-out here

Are you sure? What are the chances of Edmonton getting another A-League team any time soon?

[beachesl]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

Are you sure? What are the chances of Edmonton getting another A-League team any time soon?

Good, if the right investors came along. I don't think the USL is shy of certain places, they are shy of certain investors. If anything, the last year has shown ther is a market here if done reasonably.

[Gordon]

Here is how I see the single MLS team scenario working out beachesl. I'll use Toronto, but feel free to substitute Montreal or Vancouver and the appropriate dead A-League team that will result.

Given the payscale of MLS, the Canadian contingent of the new Toronto team is made up of former Impact, Whitecaps and Lynx player, 4-6 guys who have come back from the second tier of Norway (perhaps iffy given that Rob Friend choose the second tier of Norway over MLS). Actually potnetially a pretty competititve team. But what is the effect on Montreal and Vancouver in the A-League? Their stars are gone, and their status is now clearly etched as the Canadian second tier. Instead of being near the top of the league, they may find themselves, despite stocking up with former employees of the dear departed Lynx, in the middle of the pack or worse. Maybe Montreal will still draw 7800 and Vancouver 4500 under those circumstances, but I really do doubt it. Do the teams even survive seems the question to me. Meanwhile, on the new team, a half dozen guys playing regularly in the A-League are now bench warmers in a league that doesn't seem a huge step up over the A-League. How are we even neutral in this scenario? A handful of fringe National team players get to play in Canada and be available to play in B-side friendlies. Since no one MLS team stocks the US national team, and since it is unlikely that any wave of nationalism is going to overtake players playing overseas to build a single MLS team in Toronto,Vancouver or Montreal I don't see any benefit to Canadian soccer, and indeed, see potential demise of the three current A-League teams as a greater loss over the gain.

The costs are - potentially - the loss of several jobs in the A-League, including for sure one existing franchise and potentially the other two as well over time and the loss of any chance of a Canadian League if the single franchise is located in Toronto (and while this doesn't seem anywhere close right now, the chances are zero under the single MLS entity model).

We can quibble as to the relative strength of which ever the two minor league cities turn out to be and the ability to survive mediocre "second tier" status and a diminshed capacity to compete on the field but I don't see any advantage in one MLS team to warrant the risk.

Now lets assume that after doing all this damage, the MLS franchise goes tits up. Lets see, the holy chalice of North American soccer has failed, and the markets of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are tainted. How long do you think its going to take before any investor steps forward even for an A-League team let alone a canadian league?

I do have faith in is the ability of Canada to produce 45 players capable of playing MLS. Give me three teams in MLS, and I'll agree we are making some strides forward. Its essentially what we have now, but at a bit higher level. We still will only have the fringe overseas players by and large, but 3 teams will at least give us enough players playing at that level to build some depth. At the start, it will result in less competitive teams, but I think that, like the US players who have improved leaps and bounds playing in a professional environment, it won't be that long. And perhaps even one or two of the new teams will draw enough to make the acquisition of one or two top Canadians in Europe possible.

I don't see any upside of a single MLS team, and I see a whole lot of downside. I see this idea as one of those momentum killing, backwards stepping, lack of vision, "see we are doing something" action that Canadian soccer seems inevitably drawn to. I note the USSF didn't spend a lot of time entertaining the idea of putting an LA franchise in the MLF.

Just my opinions Dave, and certainly there is every chance that I am overestimating the damage done to Vancouver and Montreal, but I seem to remember their fans on these boards chiming in with the opinion that their teams would suffer.

[beachesl]

I am a big fan of your analysis and views, Gordon, but I don't think there is any evidence that the attendence in Montreal and Vancouver would be hurt by a Toronto MLS team. I do agree that if the CSA see this as a one-step solution, they are severely misguided.

Anecdotal projections (as much as I respect them) based on fears from fans who themselves will still be showing up does not convince me. I think the "diminshed value" argument is overated. Those fans will still be there, where are they going to go? It seems to me that the Rhinos are going to get the same number of fans in Rochester regardless of how much the MLS makes it look second-rate, and in fact the high profile of the MLS probably increases the appetite in Rochester...they want to experience it live. The people who are going to have to be convinced to show up will be the Eurosnobs, who don't care a whit about the MLS anyway.

I also question the "tainted by going tits-up" argument. The best example we have in history is the failure of the NASL in the early 1980's- it didn't stop the various Canadian leagues that sprung up thereafter.

We would all like a Canadian league soon, but we also want world peace and Miss Korea 2004 on the side, but it aint' (as my woman who saw my Asia WCQ page berated me about and reminded me) gonna happen.

In the meantime, any avenue for Canadians (especially those from US colleges who likely too old to break into any division in Euroland) that can "impress the mls" (but not make the foreign quotas) have a chance to ply their trade here and perhaps develop into MNT gold.

I guess we may or may not find out over the next few years.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

I think the ideal situation right now would be one MLS team in TO (or Vancouver or Mtl) with 3 or 4 USL div 1 team (Mtl, Vancouver, Calgary?, Edmonton? maybe even Quebec or Ottawa) and another 3 or 4 team in the USL div 2 (some atlantic teams, other teams in Ontario, Sherbrooke maybe). Add to that a couple of PDL teams and there you have it. That way young players would have a future in our country. And we could have a really interesting Voyageur Cup...

[An Observer]

I have said it before but will say it quickly again. There is absolutely no possibility in the foreseeable future for a FULL-TIME Canadian league. MLS shows that even with attendances in 10,000 plus and with decent corporate sponsorship, they can only pay fringe players basic salaries which barely make it a full-time wage. There is no way a Canadian league could average more than 5,000 and with travel costs destroying budgets, players will get paid very little. Any Canadian league would be a step down in standard of play from the A-League at least for the initial few years and therefore would be a step backward in the development of our players. Therefore, we go the A-league route and from my perspective over the last 10 years this has produced up to now two decent franchises and one perrenial also ran with little support. Calgary and Edmonton do not have the proper facilities in place to support such a team and probably won't get them unless soccer's profile is raised. To me (and I have to say this reluctantly), that means the MLS. Its the only opportunity for full-time Canadian soccer and the only opportunity to raise the profile of soccer in order to attract corporate sponsorship and a tv contract. That being said, sure there are risks especially if as likely it comes to Toronto, it may mean Vancouver and Montreal attendences decreasing. However, with a higher profile, it could also mean their attendences increasing. Its to be honest to difficult to tell as depending how the MLS is sold and whether the A-league teams can capitalise on any of the publicity, it may go either way. And i would agree, one MLS side long term is not the solutioon. But 3 in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal may be if is is couple with 5 or 6 A-league sides in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, and Quebec. That you have a pyramid structure with top 30 or 40 players in Europe; another 30 or 40 in MLS, with another 80 or so in the A-league playing semi-professional. From that we could pick quite a good national side and from time to time qualify for the World Cup and whilst always being underdogs, take on the Mexicos and the U.S. Let's face it, we will never dominate them and for those who remember the 70s when the Americans were way behind us, this will never be the case again. We actually now need their league....like the NASL...to make us competitive again.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

I think the "diminshed value" argument is overated. Those fans will still be there, where are they going to go? It seems to me that the Rhinos are going to get the same number of fans in Rochester regardless of how much the MLS makes it look second-rate, and in fact the high profile of the MLS probably increases the appetite in Rochester...they want to experience it live. The people who are going to have to be convinced to show up will be the Eurosnobs, who don't care a whit about the MLS anyway.

Fair enough. It is all speculation and best guesses when it come to the impact. But you will have to admit that som attendance is based on success (winning) and that a Montreal without Sutton, Gervais, Grande and a couple of others are not going to be as successful. The attendance in Montreal is a relatively recent phenomenon so I don't think it can be taken for granted. Maybe Vancouver will be better positioned to survive, but it was not so long ago that both of these franchises were in peril.

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

I also question the "tainted by going tits-up" argument. The best example we have in history is the failure of the NASL in the early 1980's- it didn't stop the various Canadian leagues that sprung up thereafter.

But both the CSL and MLS needed a World Cup kick start. Had Canada not qualified in 1986, or the US not been gifted a World Cup, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Event he most passionate soccer fan with money will only a flog a dead horse so often.

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

We would all like a Canadian league soon, but we also want world peace and Miss Korea 2004 on the side, but it aint' (as my woman who saw my Asia WCQ page berated me about and reminded me) gonna happen.

True dat, but since I see trading the possibility of a Canadian League for an MLS franchise as somewhat akin to selling Manhattan for $24 I think I'd rather say no thanks. Since I don't think we are getting anything tangible for saying au revoir to a Canadian League, why should we do that. One thing the CUSL did show us is that there is at least some money out there. Yeah, we need to devlop infrastructure, nice little 10,000 seat stadia around the country. But truthfully, how far are we off from there. You live in a province that is flush with cash and has a long tradition of pouring money into infrasturcture. Canada has several billions in surpluses every year. My town wants the Vanier Cup and is looking at the stadium requirements seriously. Vancouver and Toronto are possibly on the way to 25,000 seaters. Are we really that far away from having the necessary "conditions", or at least infrastructure necessary for a national league? Maybe it is far fetched, but shouldn't we trade that possibility for something more than beads and trinkets?

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

In the meantime, any avenue for Canadians (especially those from US colleges who likely too old to break into any division in Euroland) that can "impress the mls" (but not make the foreign quotas) have a chance to ply their trade here and perhaps develop into MNT gold.

I guess we may or may not find out over the next few years.

But we are talking about one team. I'd agree that 3 teams is worth it. But the one or two guys out of college who might make that one team is hardly a step up. I don't see that as any sort of a significant step up over joining the Lynx. And that is really what we are talking about under the best case scenario: trading the Toronto Lynx for the Toronto Lions. I've said many times that MLS teams in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal would be worthwhile. But one team would not be.

I guess I am in a similar boat to you, but on the opposite side of the coin. I've never seen an argument that suggests any benefit from an MLS team in Canada that I can buy. Guarantee me three teams, and I'll swim up that river. But one? Why bother?

[argh1]

Gordon , thank-you . You have taken almost all my arguments and have verbalized them to a T. I can't believe how the prowess of your arguments so far exceeds my limited education and vocabulary . It is not an anti-Toronto argument it is a vision of Canadian soccer . All we lack is a way of making soccer part of the national identity. How will one MLS team have an impact on soccer being accepted as our game .

[An Observer]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I guess I am in a similar boat to you, but on the opposite side of the coin. I've never seen an argument that suggests any benefit from an MLS team in Canada that I can buy. Guarantee me three teams, and I'll swim up that river. But one? Why bother?

Why bother, as one is better than none which we have right now. So that means we will have at least 10 to 12 Canadians playing full-time which we didnt' have before....

[Grizzly]

The first thing we don't know is whether a Canadian quota will apply to only the Canadian teams or whether both American and Canadians will be non-imports throughout the league. The second option would probably be preferable but both would be an improvement over the present situation.

I don't agree with it being an embarassment for Canada to team up with the US in a high level soccer league. What is an embarassment is the current situation and I know since I have often had to explain to Europeans that our league consists of three teams in the US second division. We have a unique situation in North America which doesn't correspond with anywhere else in the world and have to find our own unique solutions. Nor does anyone anywhere else really care what we do (other than FIFA bureaucrats) they only notice that our MNT doesn't do well and we have no decent club teams. With the exception of football we cooperate with the US in all other sports so why should we not do this in soccer. I love the CFL and hope the NFL never comes to Canada. I would also prefer the NHL to collapse and be replaced by a Canadian hockey league because I think the money and fan support would be there to have an all-Canadian league second to none in the world. At the moment I can't conceive of an all Canadian soccer league succeeding at even a low level of play and salaries. Basketball and baseball haven't been able to set up Canadian leagues either.

In Europe the situation is also not much different. The majority of leagues are development leagues for the big four. Many of the fans in countries like Austria and Sweden are tired of this and there are calls for pan-Scandanavian leagues and integration of Austria and Switzerland. However, since the leagues are heavily scouted and players can transfer within Europe without foreigner quotas the national teams are not hurt by not having top level teams only the local fans who can't watch them. Canada at present is neither a feeder league for Europe nor for the MLS since only a small number of our players play in either location and are subject to foreigner quotas. We also don't have teams at a level high enough at which coveted players can step immediately into a top level league.

Stop to consider what the level of play in a Canadian league would be. Probably about halfway between CPSL and A-league. It would take at least five years to even reach current A-league level. How is this going to build fan support for the game or help our players develop? I would be willing to attend an Ottawa team in this league despite the level of play but I doubt enough other Ottawans would be also willing to do so to pay the bills. It would be embarrassing bringing friends to games and trying to sell them on soccer based on this level of play. I think any sane soccer person (whether the CSA fits this definition is up for interpretation) would see the goal of having three MLS teams in the near future. Vancouver may indeed be the best immediate candidate if they build a new stadium since they have supported the Whitecaps in the A-league reasonably well, have a well run team with a rich owner and have the longest tradition of supporting professional soccer of any Canadian city. The teams that would remain in the A-league might lose a few players to the first MLS team but could also get transfer fees and would be able to replace them without too much trouble. Montreal might not win the title the following year but minus its best 3 or 4 players could still be a competitive team. Finding players to fill two decent A-league teams should not be a problem the bigger problem will be finding MLS level players. And this is precisely the reason that we should take this possibility, so that we have a large pool of players at MLS level as opposed to A-league level. I think even one professional soccer team getting national media coverage and decent audiences will raise the profile of the game as a spectator sport. This will help the remaining A-league teams and hasten their entrance into the MLS as well as bettering the prospects for smaller cities to establish successful A-league teams. If we end up with 3 strong MLS teams and several successful A-league teams then a Canadian league might be viable if there were a reason to leave the MLS. Thus, the MLS might be our best route to a national league. It is certainly at present our best chance at present to giving Canadians the opportunity to play and watch top quality soccer in Canada.

[DoyleG]

Why it always comes back to TO and no other city is because Toronto is the commerical and media capital of Canada. Add to that Keving Pipe selling Toronto as an MLS city. The only time Vancouver and Montreal would be considered is not as sucessful markets but as a foil to Toronto.

A MLS team would be devestating to Canadian soccer given that a team would suck up any financial capital and media attention relating to soccer in Canada. People won't invest in soccer in other cities in Canada knowing that they will get little or no attention and little in terms of finacial support. It's really upsetting when Kevin Pipe brags about Toronto MLS while doing nothing to help with ownership and facilities here in Edmonton and Calgary. MLS is really nothing more than a way to inflate Pipe's own ego.

We can build a national league here in Canada without the need of the CSA. You aren't going to get a financial support base without a plan that is far more realistic than the CUSL plan the CSA came up with. It seems more and more that the CUSL plan and the KPMG report was what the CSA needed as an excuse in not to build a national league. They can easily come up with a real plan for pro soccer in Canada with all the energy they have used in relations to MLS.

You get the kind of people who know how to make soccer work in Canada and they can easily come up with a plan for a Canadian league that would be the most viable option.

As for the level of play, there are certainly enough players in Canada that are of A-League quality than give a league the start it needs. What stops them is teh fact that there aren't enough opprotunities close by for them to play top-level. Why would a player would want to move to either Tor, Mtl or Van to play pro for 6 months. You give a player the opprotunity to play pro in his own community, they will bite at that opprotunity. Having a national league gives talented players who play in the CPSL or any of the provincal leagues a place to play high level soccer.

When one looks at MLS, it's all up to what the I/O in any team wants. A I/O isn't going to get involved in running an MLS team in any Canadian city if he/she knows that the team will simply be a CSA-proxy side. An I/O would be more than willing to fall within MLS rules and have a team that would be made up with mainly Americans. Even with the SI's you will see a better chance of seeing non-Canadians filling up those positions. Any I/O will be interested in making a return in the sport and winning, even at the expense of shutting out Canadian players.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Why it always comes back to TO and no other city is because Toronto is the commerical and media capital of Canada.

I thought Winnipeg and CanWest Global was the media centre of Canada ?

[Grizzly]

CanWest Global: should that be media centre or propaganda centre? [}]

[kelownaguy]

Okay ,, if we can't really get an all Canadian league started then why don't we try adding on more Canadian teams to the A-league and make it somewhat of a Canadian league with 6,7,8 Canadian teams........Oh wait a second......we can't even support 5 A-league teams, so how in gods name do people expect 8-12 Canadian cities out of the blue to pop up and have 5,000 fans showing up every night to watch a calibre of soccer lower then A-league play ??? Its very frustarating being a soccer fan in this country because the interest just is not there,, I think at least starting with one MLS franchise will start building some interest, especially if Sportsnet picks up their broadcasts as they do Raptor and Blue Jay games. If it works in Toronto , then maybe down the road we can get teams in Vancouver and Montreal, if it doesn't work then we are right back to where we started,,,,which is right now.....nowhere... There is nobody seriously talking anymore about a Canadian league being setup in the near future so I don't necessarily agree that we are choosing an MLS team over a Canadian league. I really believe we have nothing to lose here and it is definitely worth a shot.

[Daniel]

It's never really about calibre. People use it as an excuse, but decent imaging is much more important. The Impact play crap soccer compared to anything else you can see regularly on TV, yet they're properly seen as Montréal's team and have a GOOD (crucial) relation with youth organizations. The players see it as a potential stepping stone.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

It's never really about calibre. People use it as an excuse, but decent imaging is much more important. The Impact play crap soccer compared to anything else you can see regularly on TV, yet they're properly seen as Montréal's team and have a GOOD (crucial) relation with youth organizations. The players see it as a potential stepping stone.

That good relation with youth organization is a key to long term success. It's a way of scouting young local talents. And in Montreal local talents always sell easily to the crowd. No local players in a Montreal team means no success. So if the MLS comes to town the Impact will always sell tickets if they have a core of good local players. But I doubt anyone would be ready to put the money required for a MLS team in Montreal.

[An Observer]

Doyle G - show me a viable financila plan for a full-time league and I may buy into what you are selling. But you make alot of what I see as unsubstantied statements which demonstrate a lack of understading. eg. the MLS would suck up financial investment? Investing a few million in a high profile team in a North American league is different than putting a few hundred thousand in your local a-league side. Usually, for these reasons they involve different owners...more over you are talking different business propostions. Finally, the for the latter, you need more owners as you need more teams which means the CSA or someone being able to get that support from somewhere.

As for your claim about the MLS using American players quoted, check the Canadian employment and immigration laws. When you have read them, come back and tell us how it would be ever possible to have any team/company that requires a substantial part of their work force to be non-Canadian. Its simply a non-starter.

you make comments like people can do this, or the CUSL plan was for this reason without providing a shread of proof for it.

Ok, you may want a Canadian league but then tell me how it is going to be supported, by whom, what attendences you are going to generate, and with whose money....and why owners of succesful sides like Montreal and Vancouver would like to take the financial risk to join such a fledgling set up.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer from London

I have said it before but will say it quickly again. There is absolutely no possibility in the foreseeable future for a FULL-TIME Canadian league.

What do you mean by "FULL-TIME"? Because this is important to the discussion.

The maximum duration of a season in any outdoor league involving Canadian teams is 7 months including pre-season training (April-October). This is the approximate window in which both the A-League and MLS operate. The MLS can stretch it out by playing their "post-season" a little further south but that still makes it maximum app. 7 months.

So do you mean FULL-TIME to include 12 months per year or full time? Do you mean FULL-TIME to allow no other "employment" during the season or perhaps you define it as a certain number of hours training and playing per week?

The thing is, even the MLS is not FULL-TIME YEAR-ROUND although they do pay better than what a new Canadian league would likely pay. So What? The CFL seems to be doing well and they are certainly a PART-TIME league by most definitions.

There could be a place for a national league that promotes itself as a SPORT played by real people for real salaries not pampered millionaires who do no real work. It used to be a source of inspiration and pride when local newspapers would feature the local CFL or NHL players working in their off-season jobs. I think a league of journeymen and rising or retiring stars, properly marketed at a national level could do quite well thank you.

And just for the record. I think a single MLS team in ANY Canadian city is bad news but it only makes financial sense to put it in Toronto if they have to do it.

[kelownaguy]

I really just don't understand why people keep saying if we got one team in Toronto in the very near future it would be bad news. The fact is, there is nothing going on with soccer in Canada these days, absolutely nothing..... We are pretty much at rock bottom,, there is no plans in the works for a Canadian league to start in the next couple years or anything else on the go... so my question is , why would people rather have nothing (where we are right now) then have an MLS franchise which will at least have a Canadian team playing high calibre soccer together and at least drumming up a little interest in the sport for Canada thru media and televised games. I live out west, I'd sure watch a Toronto MLS team full of Canadian players on Sportsnet, I'm sure most of you guys would to.

[denis]

I like the idea of MLS in Canada but who is going to broadcast it. If the only ones watching these games are the few thousand who can personaly spectate, then I don't see any growth in intrest in the sport here in canada. Thats the root of the problem with soccer in canada, theres no intrest in the game, beyond it providing a place to send your kids for a few hours a week during the summer. Maybe if a MLS game or two where shown on tsn or rogers everynow and then, showcaseing a canadain team maybe that could help.