DoyleG Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Possibly they could, but if league rules "say" that Canadians can not compete in their own country then it is not a question of saying there are not enough qualified Canadians, it is a question of discrimination against Canadian players. MLS rules as currently stand, would be a discrimination against Canadian players. It won't fly. Plus, you would not be able to designate that the replacements were americans, only that players must better than the Canadians. Additionally, you would need to show that there was a fair mechanism in place to determine that the Canadians were not qualified. Remember we are talking about a league mandate that the players be "American". So the Canadian MLS team could stock up on Brazilians, dominate the League with the rest of MLS crying foul. MLS can argue that Canadian players aren't treated less because teams would be willing to do what it took to get a player on the roster. As long as MLS can prove that all measures can be taken to get a Canadian on a roster, authorities won't block an MLS team from putting an team of American players in Toronto. quote:Originally posted by Gordon It is not a reach at all Gavin. The only way around Canadian laws would be for the MLS to drop all restrictions on nationality or allow Canadians to compete as domestic players everywhere in the league. If there was such a reciprocal agreement then as long as there was a fair tryout process, the north american could be specified. I'd live with this because I know there are more than 9 Canadians who could make it in MLS if ther restrictions were dropped. It goes back to what I said in the first bit. As long as MLS can prove that every step was taken to put Canadians on a team, they aren't in any violation. quote:Originally posted by Gordon But the important element is that the restictions, or quotas are on the import player, not the Canadian player. Its why the Canadian content rules didn't apply for CFL teams in the US, because you can't mandate that a foreign national be preferrred over a qualified domestic player in either the US or Canada. If the CFL were to drop all "import" restrictions, that would be legal because qualified Canadians are not restricted. Now practically, there would be very few Canadians in the league because the american development system is so far advanced over the Canadian that only exceptional canadian athletes would be able to compete. Nevertheless, if the CFL were to say no more than 2, or 4 or even 40 Canadians could be on the roster they would run afoul of the law. But they limit foreign workers which makes it legal. There is a difference between structured limits on Canadian workers (League rules say the team must be american) and practical limits (like Basketball where there are so few Canadians qualified to work) Structured limits are illegal, practical limits are not so long as they only inhibit the Canadian player on ability rather than nationality. Yet a Canadian could get on a US roster in the CFL thanks to the wording of the import rules. You bring up Basketball but that the Raptors would be in violation knwoing that are Canadians who can replace the Americans on the roster. This would be considered part of a anti-trust case against the Raptors concerning a national league. quote:Originally posted by Gordon In any event Gavin, there is, somewhere on the net, an excellent piece by Karas & Associates, a Toronto law firm, on athletes and immigration/employment law in Canada. Have a look for it. As it may either clarify or confirm your opinions. I think you are mistaken in your application of the law, but the error in understanding may be mine. Give it a read and let me know what you think if you have the time. There are exemptions similar to what you are thinking, but only for visiting athlete i.e. Real Madrid Playing Roma in Saskatoon, or the Phildelphis Flyers playing in Canada etc. etc., or for countries or leagues with reciprocal agreements in which canadian athletes are not subject to domestic labour restrictions i.e. NHL, NBA etc. MLS does not currently have this kind of structure (while NASL did) so they will not be exempt. The Karas article doesn't deal with a situation such as MLS since it wasn't an issue in 2000. It only used the CFL and NHL as examples of dealing with labour law. He would be pressed to find how MLS violates labour law, if he hasn't be hired by any potential owner to find a way around the law. You point to MLB, NBA, and NHL as examples. Yet how many of those Americans who play here live full time in Canada? Those who live in Canada would need a work permit as they would be spending most of their time in Canada. They wouldn't need one for NBA, MLB, or MLS as they would be spending most of their time in the US and living in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I don't know if anybody mentioned this or not, but on SoccerCentral on Saturday at noon Forrest and Dobson will have some info about the MLS in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownaguy Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Alex, they talked about it last Wednesday as well, Craig was very excited about it and thinks it will definitely be a benefit for Canadian soccer, only time will tell I guess.... Wonder if this will be any new info or rehashing the same info.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownaguy Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 I can't remember what even sparked this whole debate about legal issues over Canadian quotas on a potential MLS team in Toronto, and I'm not about to get into it cause I know absolutely nothing about the law in that area while apparently a couple of you know a great deal about it. But I think this whole debate is all for not though because from what I've heard and read I'm under the impression the MLS will allow Toronto to use Canadian players to make up the majority of the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Oh, just another point on the restricting the number of Canadians on an MLS Toronto entry. With all the moneys for the stadium in which this imaginary footie club will be a principle tennant coming from either the Crown or York alumni do you think it would be politicaly possible? Forcing American plays on a Toronto MLS entry that is. "No, sorry Minister. We know you want another tennant for your building and we know you've forked over wheel barrels of cash to build a nice new shiny park for our American league. And really, we are willing to play ball. It's just that we can't let you field more than 4 canucks on any 16 man roster that you dress. That's just the way it's going to have to be. Oh, don't worry. I'm sure no one will complain. You Canadians are all so polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 quote:Originally posted by kelownaguy I can't remember what even sparked this whole debate about legal issues over Canadian quotas on a potential MLS team in Toronto, and I'm not about to get into it cause I know absolutely nothing about the law in that area while apparently a couple of you know a great deal about it. But I think this whole debate is all for not though because from what I've heard and read I'm under the impression the MLS will allow Toronto to use Canadian players to make up the majority of the team I'm a lawyer and could probably answer the legal question easily, but I won't bother doing so as you are correct - the CSA wouldn't be the slightest bit interested having Canadian MLS teams if those teams were prevented from fielding Canadian players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Now, being the first to say that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, I do have to comment about how this bellicose thread has been spiralling out of control. It started with a simple article informing us of a change to the MLS roster rules, with an aside that the MLS guys are looking at Canada. Somehow the CSA has been dragged into this. Sure, the CSA has been sending some encouraging but sidebar noises (which is what has caused most of the rankles) hoping that some sugardaddy will appear in Toronto or elsewhere, now that there is finally a Canadian stadium suitable for the MLS on the far horizon, but they are not a real player in the whole process at all. No way the CSA can become an investor, and if an investor (the Argo group or wahtever) comes along, the CSA will have no bearing in what occurs. Let's not mention the CSA and the MLS in the same sentence (doh, I did it!) because it detracts from real discussion about the CSA issues. Also, the notion that the MLS would use the same quota system and not make it so that non-Canadians would be foreign is, with respect, silly. It is, legally or otherwise, a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 quote:Originally posted by The Beaver [quoteYes, Imagine a team made up of the best Impact and Whitecap players, toss in some Lynx-dudes, a smattering of others, and DeRo, Brillant...It could be a decent side. Furthermore, look at how well that B side performed for Canada against Hearts and Millway last summer. That side, as I recall, was essentially an all-star teams of Canadian a-league players. Given the performance in those two matches, I would imagine that that a similar side could hold their own against MLS opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Furthermore, look at how well that B side performed for Canada against Hearts and Millway last summer. That side, as I recall, was essentially an all-star teams of Canadian a-league players. Given the performance in those two matches, I would imagine that that a similar side could hold their own against MLS opposition. Too be honest, I get the impression that the 'Caps and the Impact are each only 3 or 4 players short of being decent MLS sides as they aleady are. Okay, maybe that is being optimistic, but I am pretty confident that we'd eventually be able to field 3 decent MLS sides. And yes, even if they struggled in the standings for the first bit, I'd still be cheering on the 'Caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Alex I don't know if anybody mentioned this or not, but on SoccerCentral on Saturday at noon Forrest and Dobson will have some info about the MLS in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Didn't work that last time. Seems the people at Soccercentral didn't do their homework good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrennanFan Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I saw Yallop on that soccer central piece and he seemed very committed to having an MLS team packed with players from the national team, for the purpose of getting a team together for the world cup. Now, i doubt stalteri and Deguzman will be leaving the Germany for the MLS, but is there a chance some others in lower tier teams may? (Occean?, simpson?, hutchinson?). Either way, I have a feeling Yallop will call up the MLS players over European players just because they play together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Seems the people at Soccercentral didn't do their homework good. Comedy gold. [8D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Comedy gold. [8D] Har Har Har Note that my sarcasm detector finds squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Har Har Har Note that my sarcasm detector finds squat. That's because there was no sarcasm to detect. I was pointing fun at the fact that they "didn't do their homework good". If I have to explain it, then it's already lost it's humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 I think Doyle did do his homework. It is only that he took Lui, no, Pat Carrasco's English grammar class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast2005 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Just for the sake or a argument who says the future MLS franchise for Toronto has to be loaded with Canadians? While this would be nice ,lets hope the team looks for the best available players period. We have got to lose this Canada first attitude in sports that has ruined pro hockey. Get the best for the MLS team and load the reserves with younger Canadians to move up the ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juaninho Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Beast2005 We have got to lose this Canada first attitude in sports that has ruined pro hockey. Get the best for the MLS team and load the reserves with younger Canadians to move up the ranks. Is there really a Canada First attitude in sports that has ruined pro hockey? Beast, i hate to alarm you from your Rumplestiltskin like stupor, but this is 2004, not 1984. Harold Ballard has been dead for some years now. Most fans and teams welcome foreigners into their ranks, why even a foreigner is captain of the Leafs, despite Ol' Ballard's protests from beyond the grave. (no, i didn't channel him somehow, conjecture i guess) I see your point, get the best the talent for the team so it has a chance to succeed, thereby creating a trickle down effect interest in soccer. But still, i'd like to see some good Canadians given a chance - max out the foreign quota allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 If I may be so bold as to mention again that it's 10 million US greenbacks for an MLS franchise! Also that with 12 teams already in place in USL 1st Division with a cap at 16 teams and 3 Canadian teams in place that we ain't gonna have 7 Canadian teams or even 5 . That maybe if someone is dumb enuff to fork out 10 million US plus operating expenses , let him have a go at it....give'er. This might just work. I'm afraid we're gonna end up with 1 MLS, 2 USL 1st division (we all know the Lynx are done the minute MLS is announced) plus a bunch of regional semi-pro and elite provincial teams (which is no different than any other sport except hockey ,curling or CFL) with no co-ordination betwix them as the CSA ........well .......CSA will be the CSA and continue to look for quick fix answers and have no long term goals . I was foolish enough once to think soccer could be an exception and be a truly Canadian national game. But now I see that we'll just get American left-overs and only a select few will be invited to the party. The rest of us will be relagated to provincials to grow the game as best we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagebeast Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 the USL is dyingaslow death, Calgary and Edmonton have foled yet again , the MLSis Canada's only option at this point. alberta has proved time and again they can't or won't support professional soccer , so the people should just stop trying.Toronto and Montreal would make great MLS cities and the whitecaps could stay in the USL until they get a stadium that is capable of hosting a MLS franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 quote:Originally posted by savagebeast the USL is dyingaslow death, Calgary and Edmonton have foled yet again , the MLSis Canada's only option at this point. alberta has proved time and again they can't or won't support professional soccer , so the people should just stop trying.Toronto and Montreal would make great MLS cities and the whitecaps could stay in the USL until they get a stadium that is capable of hosting a MLS franchise. For god sakes, are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 quote:Originally posted by savagebeast ...alberta has proved time and again they can't or won't support professional soccer , so the people should just stop trying.... I disagree with your premise. I do not think the people of Alberta have rejected professional soccer. What they have rejected is poorly organized, financed and marketed franchises. If they had had the opportunity to watch a professionally run club they might have given it a chance instead they were given false hopes, pipe dreams and a third rate product off the field. Calgary FC - short sighted ownership which made promises about long-term financing and backing then bailed before really giving it a chance. Edmonton Aviators- ridiculous ownership setting obviously unrealistic goals. Neither team had a realistic plan given the facilities available. Neither team had the financial backing to sustain operations through the first years. Neither team had any credibility with local media (and I would bet corporate sponsors) after making promises that they should have known they had no way to keep. A national league with shared revenue and marketing backed by $15M ($10M U.S.franchise fee plus start - up costs for an MLS team) would get a full 10-12 team Canadian national league through the first year without a penny in revenue from any other source. With competent management that amount could bankroll the same league through the early years required to make the league self-sustaining. For an MLS team it will pay for year one and no more since the $10M fee simply dissappears into the league's huge debt. What it comes down to for me is that I do not see how a single large "shop" in a single market is more likely to survive than a bunch of smaller "shops" in a bunch of markets. There is not just one IKEA store for all of Canada because it makes more sense to have a number of smaller stores. Why shouldn't the same apply to soccer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesy55 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 With Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. looking onto the profitabilty of a Torornto MLS team, it will be interesting to hear and see their final report to the "Board of Directors"..... If MLSE back off the MLS team in Toronto, it would send a negitive message to a proposed buyer, or major sponsor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagebeast Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 quote:Originally posted by jonesy55 With Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. looking onto the profitabilty of a Torornto MLS team, it will be interesting to hear and see their final report to the "Board of Directors"..... If MLSE back off the MLS team in Toronto, it would send a negitive message to a proposed buyer, or major sponsor. Thats all soccer needs is MLSE getting involved in soccer, they have their hands filled with the two LOSERS they do own.Lets get someone with the soccer brackground like the previous owner of the Blizzard, it's only the NASL dying that he stopped being involved in soccer,and no smart soccer person is going to invest in a USL franchise, no disrepect to the LYNX,Impact & Whitecaps owners they do seem to have the best interest of the sport in mind just not the stadiums to play it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 quote:Originally posted by savagebeast Thats all soccer needs is MLSE getting involved in soccer, they have their hands filled with the two LOSERS they do own. This is exactly what a Toronto MLS team would need. A rich ownership group with a plethora of experience in running professional sports franchises. quote:Lets get someone with the soccer brackground like the previous owner of the Blizzard, it's only the NASL dying that he stopped being involved in soccer Sure, we'll just look him up in prison, or wherever the hell he might be nowadays. quote:and no smart soccer person is going to invest in a USL franchise, no disrepect to the LYNX,Impact & Whitecaps owners they do seem to have the best interest of the sport in mind just not the stadiums to play it in. The people running the Impact and Whitecaps are exactly the types of people we need to run soccer clubs in this country. The Lynx owners, while not nearly as shrewd, are clearly passionate about the game and deserve credit for making the Lynx survive so many seasons in Toronto despite dwelling in relative obscurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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