MLS Update

[Alex]

I totally disagree with most people on this board when they say that the MLS will not be good for soccer in Canada. I have to vent and say, WTF are you smoking? the MLS would be HUGE for soccer here, I dont care if its Yellowknife, Sudbury, Gander or Toronto. A Canadian team will be full of Canadian players, and right now we have, what 3 playing in the MLS? I will bet that a DeVos, Occean, Hirschfeld maybe, guys like that, who are ending their careers or playing in Scandanavia or just looking to make it big will gladly play for a Canadian MLS team. A team will get people excited and give national team members a face and familiarity. If it doesnt work? well no harm done in my books, nothing lost nothing gained, we still have all the other leagues across the world for guys to play in. Ill give it about a 95% chance of working being as successful as the Toronto Rock lacrosse have been in the past years (attendance wise). This will only lead us to bigger and better things. We have NOTHING at the moment. Theres not gonna be a Canadian league ever at this rate. If we get an MLS team we could get one. Thats whats going to happen, you'll see. By the way this is all just my point of view.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Alex

I totally disagree with most people on this board when they say that the MLS will not be good for soccer in Canada...If it doesnt work? well no harm done in my books, nothing lost nothing gained, we still have all the other leagues across the world for guys to play in...By the way this is all just my point of view.

Your point of view is welcome to the debate, thats is the point of the thread in my opinion. But the issue of we have nothing now so it has to be better is vastly oversimplifying the current situtaion. First of all, one MLS team is going to knock off one A-League team at a minimum (and lets look at it with only minimum costs for the sake of the argument). So the net loss/gain in jobs is neutral, although the MLS does operate with a bit higher playing standard and for a month or so longer each season. Call it a measurable, but hardly substantial gain. If the team is in Toronto, and MLS refuses to expand into Montreal and/or Vancouver - quite a viable scenario in my opinion given the apparent myopic provincialism the american sports fan and television networks - then we are stuck, permanently with a single MLS team in Canada. No Canadian League - now or at any time in the future can start without the Toronto market. For all of the reasons the Canadian League detractors spout, it would not make sense for a relatively succesful Toronto team to leave MLS for a new Canadian League. Therefore, if you are going to sell any chance of a domestic league now or at any time in the futuredon't you think the price should be a little higher than 7 starting jobs, and another 8 bench positions, in a League that is of modest standard on the global scale? This is why some of us who are opposed to a single MLS team are willing to consider the MLS a step up if we are talking about three teams. Then we are looking a sufficient enough number of jobs to make the sacrifice of a domestic league now or at any time in the future a present value calculation that makes a bit of sense.

Seriously, 7 or 8 starting positions in MLS is going to turn around our national program, encourage more kids to play soccer, turn the media into boosters and raise the profile of the game in Canada? I'd say the 'who is smoking what' question can go both ways here.

I realize that the CSA lacks vision, that Canadian soccer is generally rudderless right now. But the assumption that is always going to be so is not tenable (who would have thought 18 months ago that a Canadian investor might finance a 25,000 stadium in Vancouver? Yet that possibility exists). In fact, I'd argue that the simple fact that the CSA is hot to trot about MLS is sufficient reason to run as far away from it as possible

[Alex]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Your point of view is welcome to the debate, thats is the point of the thread in my opinion. But the issue of we have nothing now so it has to be better is vastly oversimplifying the current situtaion. First of all, one MLS team is going to knock off one A-League team at a minimum (and lets look at it with only minimum costs for the sake of the argument). So the net loss/gain in jobs is neutral, although the MLS does operate with a bit higher playing standard and for a month or so longer each season. Call it a measurable, but hardly substantial gain. If the team is in Toronto, and MLS refuses to expand into Montreal and/or Vancouver - quite a viable scenario in my opinion given the apparent myopic provincialism the american sports fan and television networks - then we are stuck, permanently with a single MLS team in Canada. No Canadian League - now or at any time in the future can start without the Toronto market. For all of the reasons the Canadian League detractors spout, it would not make sense for a relatively succesful Toronto team to leave MLS for a new Canadian League. Therefore, if you are going to sell any chance of a domestic league now or at any time in the futuredon't you think the price should be a little higher than 7 starting jobs, and another 8 bench positions, in a League that is of modest standard on the global scale? This is why some of us who are opposed to a single MLS team are willing to consider the MLS a step up if we are talking about three teams. Then we are looking a sufficient enough number of jobs to make the sacrifice of a domestic league now or at any time in the future a present value calculation that makes a bit of sense.

Seriously, 7 or 8 starting positions in MLS is going to turn around our national program, encourage more kids to play soccer, turn the media into boosters and raise the profile of the game in Canada? I'd say the 'who is smoking what' question can go both ways here.

I realize that the CSA lacks vision, that Canadian soccer is generally rudderless right now. But the assumption that is always going to be so is not tenable (who would have thought 18 months ago that a Canadian investor might finance a 25,000 stadium in Vancouver? Yet that possibility exists). In fact, I'd argue that the simple fact that the CSA is hot to trot about MLS is sufficient reason to run as far away from it as possible

I see your point that 7 or 8 starting positions is not worth the posibility of a Canadian league in the future, but wouldnt you say that if a team succeeds in Toronto that Vancouver and Montreal would be next? The MLS needs soccer markets and good ones to grow and make money. Now I realize that they could be hesitant because American soccer would not benefit if it soccer grows in Canada, but isnt it all about money in the long run? Has somebody in the MLS hierarchy said that Canada will only get one club? If this is that case I would say that I agree with where you stand because Im sure the thinking in the CSA is to get more than one team and have a Canadian division... the word there is "thinking"...

I just get excited when I think about MLS coming to anywhere in Canada.

The one thing that does bother me about the MLS possibly coming to Toronto is that the Lynx will certaintly be gone. Wasnt this whole debate started because Cynamon and Sokolowski (Argos owners) need another tenant in the new stadium? I heard that the Lynx will be playing there anyway.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Alex

The one thing that does bother me about the MLS possibly coming to Toronto is that the Lynx will certaintly be gone. Wasnt this whole debate started because Cynamon and Sokolowski (Argos owners) need another tenant in the new stadium? I heard that the Lynx will be playing there anyway.

I was thinking about this today and this is probably the only thing that bothers me about the MLS coming to Toronto.

To Lynx fans out there: Would you go to both MLS and Lynx games or just one or the other?

[beachesl]

Questions:

Has anybody even seen the agreement between the Argos' company and York? Does the public have access to this document? What are the provisions concerning the Argo's and the CSA using the facility?

I assume that the conditions would be that the Argo's group, including any MLS team owned by them, would get rent free and all the concession fees (at least for a period certain), in return for their financial contribution to the stadium. I also assume that the Argos would not be getting a share of the rental fees (just York) if another group brings the MLS in, and that the extra potential revenue of bringing in an MLS team ownership was in the calculations of the Argos group. I further assume that the Lynx, which would not be a party to the agreement, would have to pay the going rate for rental. Would the Lynx even bother to play there given this, even without the MLS competition, given that they probably would not get much more attendence than they would now?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions and the soundness of these assumptions?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Alex

I see your point that 7 or 8 starting positions is not worth the posibility of a Canadian league in the future, but wouldnt you say that if a team succeeds in Toronto that Vancouver and Montreal would be next? The MLS needs soccer markets and good ones to grow and make money.

Now I realize that they could be hesitant because American soccer would not benefit if it soccer grows in Canada, but isnt it all about money in the long run? Has somebody in the MLS hierarchy said that Canada will only get one club? If this is that case I would say that I agree with where you stand because Im sure the thinking in the CSA is to get more than one team and have a Canadian division... the word there is "thinking"...

No, there has not been any discussions of either limits on the number of Canadian teams or assurances of additional Canadian teams that I am aware of. But imagine you are putting together an 18 team first division without relegation or promotion, you are american, and you hope for a windfall, eventually, of television revenue, without which you will always struggle. Do you want Vancouver and Montreal or do you want Houston and Cleveland? Toronto alone makes a great deal of sense for MLS. The city is recognized in the US, has Major League Franchises in 3 of the "Big 4" (or two of the Big 3 if you prefer) is one of the top 10 television markets in North America and growing, and could come on stream without any dilution of talent because they would be using Canadian players, currently untapped by MLS. That is pure dollars and cents reasoning. But the dollars and sense also speak against Vancouver and Montreal, even though I think they would be great markets from an attendance perspective. And that is why I am worried by this tack from the CSA. I have nothing against north south integration of soccer per se. But I do want it to be beneficial. An Observers model of 3 MLS, some A-league teams etc makes real good sense. But are we moving towards this?

[Daniel]

My problem with this proposed MLS team is that it will up our immediate depth but stun our absolute depth. MLS did so well for the US national teams beacause it allowed less-than-great players a chance to play and to attain their full potential at 22, 25 or 30 years old. It gives marginal players a chance to become good and great players.

Had we had an MLS team in Canada the past 2 years, we might have a roster filled with Onstad, Derosario, Xausa, Nash, Hastings, etc. While these few guys would have gained more by playing together, players like Serioux or Grande might not have been looked at. Right now, a lot of our top talents quit the game outright at 16 years old. A national league would allow them to aim for a springboard much like the A-League does (would players like Hirshfeld, Grande, Serioux, Pozniak, Bernier, Reda, etc. have been noticed with an MLS team overshadowing them or mediocre MLS players taking a spot on the Canadian bench?). The best provincial players would have a chance to play for 2-3 years on the fringe but in a competitive pro league and get exposure and possible betterment.

An MLS team would overshadow the existing Canadian pro teams. Look at the CBL, look at the absence of a national basketball league. Would the CFL get as much attention with an NFL team in the country? I doubt it.

[David C.]

Daniel, is it not possible that many players such as Hutchinson, Bernier, Occean, Reda, DeRosario, Onstad, Sutton, Jazic, Menezes, etc... would have formed the nucleus of an MLS team over the past few years, allowing us to field a better-gelled team, in season form, without any jet-lag against Guatemala, in the first Vancouver game?

If true, we probably would have won that game, continued the WC Qualifying campain with better momentum and made it to the hex.

...just thinking aloud.

[kelownaguy]

It's a tricky question,,, that's for sure. If we were given the choice to choose one thing or the other, 1) having a Canadian domestic league or 2)an MLS team in Toronto, I think it's fair to say that 99% (maybe even 100) of us would say Canadian league for sure. But if we were told there won't be any Canadian league set up for at least a decade, then most of us would choose MLS cause at least its big league soccer coming to our country and will help promote the game to fans who may otherwise not watch it. Like I said, if we were given a choice, I would choose Canadian league, but I don't think we have any kind of choice right now. I haven't heard even a whisper of any investors that would line up to help sponsor a domestic league, and for that matter, haven't heard of any plans in the near future to create a league, by anybody... I think if more cities in this country could support soccer outside of Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, you would see them in the

A-league by now. I think the failure of A-league soccer in our two Alberta cities would make a lot of people gunshy about trying to create an all Canadian league or invest in it.... It certainly would scare me off if I was going to invest. I'm excited to see an MLS franchise come to Toronto because at least its some progress being made in the soccer world in our country, because right now there is absolutely zilch going on...

[kelownaguy]

It's a tricky question,,, that's for sure. If we were given the choice to choose one thing or the other, 1) having a Canadian domestic league or 2)an MLS team in Toronto, I think it's fair to say that 99% (maybe even 100) of us would say Canadian league for sure. But if we were told there won't be any Canadian league set up for at least a decade, then most of us would choose MLS cause at least its big league soccer coming to our country and will help promote the game to fans who may otherwise not watch it. Like I said, if we were given a choice, I would choose Canadian league, but I don't think we have any kind of choice right now. I haven't heard even a whisper of any investors that would line up to help sponsor a domestic league, and for that matter, haven't heard of any plans in the near future to create a league, by anybody... I think if more cities in this country could support soccer outside of Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, you would see them in the

A-league by now. I think the failure of A-league soccer in our two Alberta cities would make a lot of people gunshy about trying to create an all Canadian league or invest in it.... It certainly would scare me off if I was going to invest. I'm excited to see an MLS franchise come to Toronto because at least its some progress being made in the soccer world in our country, because right now there is absolutely zilch going on...

[Daniel]

The thing with the Alberta fiasco is that both teams were administered by people who hadn't done their homework (especially Edmonton) and who did not look at what the successful teams were doing. On top of that, the stadium situation was horrendous.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

Daniel,

No it was about lack of support!!!!

I'm kidding. Alot of ppl on this board believe that it is the main reason of failure, and I agree. Do the Whitecaps, Lynx and Impact deal with the same levels of BS that Calgary and Edmonton faced?

[Daniel]

The fact that Toronto is still around DESPITE the situation it is in is proof enough that Canadian teams can survive and develop talent. This is a team that plays with no exposure to crowds of less than 3,000 on average, yet it's been around for 7 years and is the only current Canadian team that hasn't gone bankrupt!

[argh1]

In this post I'd like to question the financial stabilty of the MLS .

Nothing against any-body.

But why is the MLS moving away from the one ownership idea after ten years and accepting investment from Mexican teams and selling franchises outside of the original ownership group . I know we who enjoy soccer some-times put the rose coloured spectacles on and some of us are far too cynical but is all rosy in the MLS. After all if the current ownership is doing fine money wise , why are they looking for outside investment.

Maybe some-one in Canada should have a look at the books before sinking loonies into this enterprise?

Maybe with the USL First Division capping at 16 teams with 12 teams in place now our 3 Canadian teams will only be followed by a maximum of 1 more . I can't see a North American wide league being 1/3 or more Canadian .

So maybe I can open my mind a bit and accept the possibility of MLS in Canada even though I'm still against CSA cheerleading and I am suspicious of current MLS motives concerning expansion .

My dream of an all Canadian League survives. But it seems to me we are at a crossroads . It will be interesting to see if we chose left (MLS), right (USL) or straight ahead (Canadian domestic league), only hope the CSA shows some thoughtfull leadership and not knee jerk reactions. But we have an interesting few years ahead of us .

If I may add and I will....... with only 3 or 4 USL 1st division (I was dreaming of 7-10)teams the affect of 1 or 2 MLS teams will be lessened . As I believe the pay rate for players from well established USL 1st division teams will be close or at par from what I've seen MLS pay rates to be. Also we are years away from a full Domestic League (no matter how much I would like one). So I've come to the conclusion it don't matter . USL 1st division or MLS only matters on what that local market will accept.

What I'm trying to say is with the new rulings and with-out any drive for an ALL-CANADIAN LEAGUE . We will have 5-7 (?) Canadian full pro teams so we are no farther ahead and no farther behind . All this blowing hot air ( me included )and we're treading water.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

Doyle G - show me a viable financila plan for a full-time league and I may buy into what you are selling. But you make alot of what I see as unsubstantied statements which demonstrate a lack of understading. eg. the MLS would suck up financial investment? Investing a few million in a high profile team in a North American league is different than putting a few hundred thousand in your local a-league side. Usually, for these reasons they involve different owners...more over you are talking different business propostions. Finally, the for the latter, you need more owners as you need more teams which means the CSA or someone being able to get that support from somewhere.

An MLS in Toronto will cost at least $12 Million Cdn in expansion fees. That money can fund the team budgets of an 8 team Canadian League (at $1.5 Million each) and provide far more positions for Canadian players than a single MLS side filled up with bench jockeys. All the energy that is beign wated on an MLS team can easily produce a fiscally sound plan for a Canadian league.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

As for your claim about the MLS using American players quoted, check the Canadian employment and immigration laws. When you have read them, come back and tell us how it would be ever possible to have any team/company that requires a substantial part of their work force to be non-Canadian. Its simply a non-starter.

Laws mean squat in a world of globalization. You seem to ignore that the fact that the Raptors and Jays can work with Vastly American players and not get punished for it. The CFL can easily drop the Canadian quota rquirements tomorrow and the law would be powerless to stop it. Immigration and Labour lawyers can find enough loopholes in the law to make them useless.

Since you state that you are in the UK, you would seem to be quite detached from the processes in Canada.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

you make comments like people can do this, or the CUSL plan was for this reason without providing a shread of proof for it.

Ok, you may want a Canadian league but then tell me how it is going to be supported, by whom, what attendences you are going to generate, and with whose money....and why owners of succesful sides like Montreal and Vancouver would like to take the financial risk to join such a fledgling set up.

Funny yo go an say things like that. The CUSL is becoming more and more of a knee-jerk reaction by the CSA following the Gold Cup win in 2000. No offence to Ted on this case.

The KPMG Report stated that it can work if the way of doing things change. That means bringing in the Saputo's and Kerfoot's and keeping out the Pipe's and Sharpe's.

Montreal and Vancouver have shown that you can be a success with the local model. There enough of a solid base in Canadian cities for pro soccer that a league can be viable. That you seem to ignore.

[Grizzly]

Since I am still up let me be the first to point out your obvious errors in logic. 12 million might indeed pay for one year of a Canadian league but there has to be someone willing to put up this sum for the league and I have certainly not heard of anyone willing to do so. It appears that there are investors in Toronto willing to meet the MLS franchise fee whatever it will be in the end. If this is not the case the Toronto MLS team won't happen just like the CUSL didn't happen and we will be in the same situation as currently. Additionally what level of play are we going to have in a Canadian league run on a 12 million budget? Each team would also have a smaller budget that 1.5 milion because not insignificant league operating expenses and start up costs would also be taken out of the 12 million. The 12 million would also be a yearly recurring cost not a one time franchise fee so you would have to have someone willing to invest that every year. I don't know what a typical MLS team's yearly budget is but I would expect it to be less than 12 million.

The Raptors and Jays play in leagues without quotas. The Jays (or any other MLB team) could field an all-Japanese team if they wanted to. The majority of players are American because the majority of top players in these sports are American. If the NBA or MLB decided to mandate an American quota for their Toronto teams this would be illegal under Canadian law. They could do it for their American teams like the MLS does but not for a Canadian based employer. It would be unlikely though not illegal for any Canadian team to agree to participate in a league with an American quota if a similar Canadian quota didn't apply to it or if Canadians were not considered non-foreigners in the whole league's quota system. A quota of foreigners applying to the Canadian team would be illegal.

I can respect that you have a different opinion on this issue than I do but at least think through your posts first and try to come up with somewhat logical arguments. If you are going to criticize others' posts and claim they are out of touch you should have pretty solid logic in your own posts.

[kelownaguy]

Doyle, I don't think its written in stone yet that its the CSA that's putting out the expansion fee for the MLS, there's a chance it could be someone like the Argo's owners that buy it. And if that's the case , then it makes sense for the those owners to buy a team because they have another big league tenant for their stadium. They have the right to do whatever they want with their money, and I'm sure that makes a lot more business sense for them to own and operate an MLS franchise in their own building for the one time expansion fee of 10 or 12 million, rather then shell out all that money year after year trying to support a Canadian league that to this day has only shown that 3 cities will support their teams, sounds like a very risky business venture to me. If it is the CSA that is footing the bill for the expansion MLS, then you have every right to your opinion what should be done with the money, however, if it is a private investor then you have no right to tell them what they should do with their own money.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Since I am still up let me be the first to point out your obvious errors in logic. 12 million might indeed pay for one year of a Canadian league but there has to be someone willing to put up this sum for the league and I have certainly not heard of anyone willing to do so. It appears that there are investors in Toronto willing to meet the MLS franchise fee whatever it will be in the end. If this is not the case the Toronto MLS team won't happen just like the CUSL didn't happen and we will be in the same situation as currently. Additionally what level of play are we going to have in a Canadian league run on a 12 million budget? Each team would also have a smaller budget that 1.5 milion because not insignificant league operating expenses and start up costs would also be taken out of the 12 million. The 12 million would also be a yearly recurring cost not a one time franchise fee so you would have to have someone willing to invest that every year. I don't know what a typical MLS team's yearly budget is but I would expect it to be less than 12 million.

You missed the point. The $12 Million Cdn would be more than enough to cover the team budgets in their first year. Since we know that any new entry into MLS will have to pay a higher fee to get it, it will cost far more than the $12 Million Cdn that Chivas USA and Real Salt Lake paid to get into the league. The more money that will be spent on an MLS expansion fee is far better to be invested into a Canadian league

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The Raptors and Jays play in leagues without quotas. The Jays (or any other MLB team) could field an all-Japanese team if they wanted to. The majority of players are American because the majority of top players in these sports are American. If the NBA or MLB decided to mandate an American quota for their Toronto teams this would be illegal under Canadian law. They could do it for their American teams like the MLS does but not for a Canadian based employer. It would be unlikely though not illegal for any Canadian team to agree to participate in a league with an American quota if a similar Canadian quota didn't apply to it or if Canadians were not considered non-foreigners in the whole league's quota system. A quota of foreigners applying to the Canadian team would be illegal.

Law mean ****ing squat. A lawyer can go through the law and rip them apart. MLB and the NBA can go to a American quota and still have their teams in TO because they have the people who can work around the laws and still get what they want.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I can respect that you have a different opinion on this issue than I do but at least think through your posts first and try to come up with somewhat logical arguments. If you are going to criticize others' posts and claim they are out of touch you should have pretty solid logic in your own posts.

I do think through my posts. The only difference is I'm addicted to having MLS team like you guys are. You guys treat MLS like a drug, you need more and you can't live without it.

So don't start talking about logic when you don't provide anything real that support MLS in Toronto.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Law mean ****ing squat. A lawyer can go through the law and rip them apart. MLB and the NBA can go to a American quota and still have their teams in TO because they have the people who can work around the laws and still get what they want.

I think you are wrong on that one Doyle. The only way you can higher a foreigner over a Canadian in Canada is to prove that there is no qualified Canadian to do the job. That holds for Universities and multi-Billion dollar corporations that donate thousands to the Liberal party of Canada. If these entitities can't get an exemption, then there is no way that a single soccer team will find a way around it. No MLS team in Canada will be able to have an American quota of players that discriminates against Canadian players. The rules have been tested to death and still hold. The only way that will change is if NAFTA is expanded to include the free movement of Labour - a la the EU - in which Americans and Canadian are treated with the same rights no matter their nationality.

If MLS keeps its current rules regarding a limit on non-americans, then a Canadian MLS team will have that same rule, only with Canadian instead of Americans. The only way around it would be to drop all restrictions on nationality.

Even on CFL teams, the rule is written so as to limit the number of foreigners i.e. imports on the roster and there is nothing that prevents a CFL team from dressing fewer imports except the ability to find Canadians of equal or greater talent. If the rule was written so that there could only be a maximum number Canadians on the roster, without regard for ability, then the rule would nopt stand up.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I think you are wrong on that one Doyle. The only way you can higher a foreigner over a Canadian in Canada is to prove that there is no qualified Canadian to do the job. That holds for Universities and multi-Billion dollar corporations that donate thousands to the Liberal party of Canada. If these entitities can't get an exemption, then there is no way that a single soccer team will find a way around it. No MLS team in Canada will be able to have an American quota of players that discriminates against Canadian players. The rules have been tested to death and still hold. The only way that will change is if NAFTA is expanded to include the free movement of Labour - a la the EU - in which Americans and Canadian are treated with the same rights no matter their nationality.

An immigration lawyer hired by the club can easily argue that there isn't enough talent in Canada to make a Canadian team viable. He would have nor problem pushing the authorities to grant exemptions to American players. To make even more simple, an American player playing on and MLS team in Toronto wouldn't likely need a work permit since he would be living in the US while playing in Canada. Athletes can get exemptions from the work permit rules.

Sports and Labour are two different things.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

If MLS keeps its current rules regarding a limit on non-americans, then a Canadian MLS team will have that same rule, only with Canadian instead of Americans. The only way around it would be to drop all restrictions on nationality.

You raching far too much. This is an American league and the decide the rules. You can't have it your way without others demanding the same treatment. A team will end up with Americans on it since it's not worth it to change the rules.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Even on CFL teams, the rule is written so as to limit the number of foreigners i.e. imports on the roster and there is nothing that prevents a CFL team from dressing fewer imports except the ability to find Canadians of equal or greater talent. If the rule was written so that there could only be a maximum number Canadians on the roster, without regard for ability, then the rule would nopt stand up.

You seem to forget that the rules have been weakned over the years to the advantage of American players. CFL rules used to require that there be a Canadian amongst the QB's on a roster. That rule dissapeared a long time ago. The CFL can drop the quota and not even hear a peep of opposition out of it.

Oh how much the times have changed.

[G-Man]

An all-Canadian team is stupid idea. What if it sucks? As a fan, do I support it cause the players are local?

It's kinda of like going to watch a U-16 game and all the players have fathers coaching or running the team. OH you have to have a dad involved to start? OHH you have to be a canuck to play.

Right. At 30 bucks an MLS ticket, I want to see the best players my 30 bucks can bring to town and that may only include 2 Canadians.

And so be it.

Remember the Manic!

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

An all-Canadian team is stupid idea. What if it sucks? As a fan, do I support it cause the players are local?

It's kinda of like going to watch a U-16 game and all the players have fathers coaching or running the team. OH you have to have a dad involved to start? OHH you have to be a canuck to play.

Right. At 30 bucks an MLS ticket, I want to see the best players my 30 bucks can bring to town and that may only include 2 Canadians.

And so be it.

Remember the Manic!

The troll strikes again.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

An all-Canadian team is stupid idea. What if it sucks? As a fan, do I support it cause the players are local?

It's kinda of like going to watch a U-16 game and all the players have fathers coaching or running the team. OH you have to have a dad involved to start? OHH you have to be a canuck to play.

Right. At 30 bucks an MLS ticket, I want to see the best players my 30 bucks can bring to town and that may only include 2 Canadians.

And so be it.

Remember the Manic!

Yes, but what if it doesn't suck! Just imagine! And why are you so quick to assume it'll suck? If we fielded a MLS side made up of the best Canadians playing in North America right now, would it not compete at a decent level with other MLS sides? Imagine a team made up of the best Impact and Whitecap players, toss in some Lynx-dudes, a smattering of others, and DeRo, Brillant...It could be a decent side.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

An immigration lawyer hired by the club can easily argue that there isn't enough talent in Canada to make a Canadian team viable. He would have nor problem pushing the authorities to grant exemptions to American players. To make even more simple, an American player playing on and MLS team in Toronto wouldn't likely need a work permit since he would be living in the US while playing in Canada. Athletes can get exemptions from the work permit rules.

Possibly they could, but if league rules "say" that Canadians can not compete in their own country then it is not a question of saying there are not enough qualified Canadians, it is a question of discrimination against Canadian players. MLS rules as currently stand, would be a discrimination against Canadian players. It won't fly. Plus, you would not be able to designate that the replacements were americans, only that players must better than the Canadians. Additionally, you would need to show that there was a fair mechanism in place to determine that the Canadians were not qualified. Remember we are talking about a league mandate that the players be "American". So the Canadian MLS team could stock up on Brazilians, dominate the League with the rest of MLS crying foul.

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

You raching far too much. This is an American league and the decide the rules. You can't have it your way without others demanding the same treatment. A team will end up with Americans on it since it's not worth it to change the rules.

It is not a reach at all Gavin. The only way around Canadian laws would be for the MLS to drop all restrictions on nationality or allow Canadians to compete as domestic players everywhere in the league. If there was such a reciprocal agreement then as long as there was a fair tryout process, the north american could be specified. I'd live with this because I know there are more than 9 Canadians who could make it in MLS if ther restrictions were dropped.

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

You seem to forget that the rules have been weakned over the years to the advantage of American players. CFL rules used to require that there be a Canadian amongst the QB's on a roster. That rule dissapeared a long time ago. The CFL can drop the quota and not even hear a peep of opposition out of it.

Oh how much the times have changed.

But the important element is that the restictions, or quotas are on the import player, not the Canadian player. Its why the Canadian content rules didn't apply for CFL teams in the US, because you can't mandate that a foreign national be preferrred over a qualified domestic player in either the US or Canada. If the CFL were to drop all "import" restrictions, that would be legal because qualified Canadians are not restricted. Now practically, there would be very few Canadians in the league because the american development system is so far advanced over the Canadian that only exceptional canadian athletes would be able to compete. Nevertheless, if the CFL were to say no more than 2, or 4 or even 40 Canadians could be on the roster they would run afoul of the law. But they limit foreign workers which makes it legal. There is a difference between structured limits on Canadian workers (League rules say the team must be american) and practical limits (like Basketball where there are so few Canadians qualified to work) Structured limits are illegal, practical limits are not so long as they only inhibit the Canadian player on ability rather than nationality.

In any event Gavin, there is, somewhere on the net, an excellent piece by Karas & Associates, a Toronto law firm, on athletes and immigration/employment law in Canada. Have a look for it. As it may either clarify or confirm your opinions. I think you are mistaken in your application of the law, but the error in understanding may be mine. Give it a read and let me know what you think if you have the time.

There are exemptions similar to what you are thinking, but only for visiting athlete i.e. Real Madrid Playing Roma in Saskatoon, or the Phildelphis Flyers playing in Canada etc. etc., or for countries or leagues with reciprocal agreements in which canadian athletes are not subject to domestic labour restrictions i.e. NHL, NBA etc. MLS does not currently have this kind of structure (while NASL did) so they will not be exempt.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

An all-Canadian team is stupid idea. What if it sucks? As a fan, do I support it cause the players are local?

Well, ummm, yeah. Yeah. You do. That's sorta the way it works...

As to the back and forth on the CFL import restrictions. Gordon has it right in that the import restrictions apply to the max. number of foreighn players each club can carry on it's rosters, dress, and field during play. Clubs are perfectly entitled to employ less than their maximum allowed imports if they so wish. But never do and it's got less to do with the available quality of players and more to do with money.

Canadian players, who teams must play, have fewer quality rivals when it comes to negotiating wage demands and playing conditions. Have a look at the wage structure of any CFL team, you're going to be surprised how many Canadians on those rosters are in the top end of the pay chart and how many Yanks are in the bottom (outside of the star players that is).

The last roster expansion a few years ago reflected the growing economic strength of the league in that while it expanded the rosters (by 2 players I believe) it did not increase the import ratio. Should the CFL take a down turn again in the future expect the rosters to shrink again and it'll be the higher paid Canadians lossing the jobs.