Spain WNT and federation

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, GasPed said:

If Vilda could go to a Spanish men's team right now, then the culture over there must be way different than here.  E.g. Bill Peters, former top NHL coach, was accused of racism and bullying in 2019, and fired.  He had to go to Russia to get another job, and after he was released there, was unemployed until recently hired by a junior hockey team (to a large and predictable outcry).  Also, on the soccer front, to my knowledge, no coach who was named in the NWSL's 2021 report on abuse has been hired into a soccer job yet (save Farid Benstiti, who is coaching Algeria's women's team).

That said, I could be reading the room completely wrong.  But I do think that if say, Herdman, as CWNT coach, was accused of the same things Vilda is/was, he would be canned and it would be a long time before anyone in North America would hire him.

This is where I object. What was Vilda accused of? There was no report of harrassment, no report of anything sexual ever. But the American press especially has conflated this into what they deal with, assuming it's the same; the Americans don't deal with their major issues, then when an issue comes up somewhere else, they jump on it. And then you are in major difamatory mode. This is where I did not agree with how the 15 who boycotted presented their case, since they appeared to be insinuating something without saying anything. And that is completely unfair.

Vilda has no charge, no accusation and not even an innuendo of wrongdoing of anything like what you are talking about. Ever. 

Which is where I object to how he's been vilified.

As things have played out, it is very probable that the real concern of the 15 when they sent their email to the Federation a year ago was the Federation. That they were concerned about how things were being done from the top, not on the pitch. Then things like comparatives with the Men's NT came out, travel arrangements, having physios available, not having so many in a hotel room. All federation things.

Remember, Vilda took Spain to a loss vs. the US in France, in a very close match, and then lost to England last summer in the Euros, a game they were winning until late. 

So for me, it is a character assassination, because there are tons of people who think like you do, and make comparisons like you just have. 

As the former Barça coach Lluís Cortès, who won the first champions, was booted out in similar circumstances, all innuendo, and again from Barça players, pressure on the basis of thin air, there's a pattern there which for me is very dangerous (Cortès made the unlucky decision to go to Ukraine and had to flee when the war broke out).

Every time a female player does not like a coach--male or female, thinking about what happened with coaches at Portland Thorn recently--she can start a rumour mill. Do players get to name their own coaches? How is that supposed to work? 

Vilda is objectively a good coach. Probably the best in the world right now, the whole Sarina Wiegman business is a bit much. He deserves to be able to go into the market and find work and prove himself. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[GasPed]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This is where I object. What was Vilda accused of? There was no report of harrassment, no report of anything sexual ever. But the American press especially has conflated this into what they deal with, assuming it's the same; the Americans don't deal with their major issues, then when an issue comes up somewhere else, they jump on it. And then you are in major difamatory mode. This is where I did not agree with how the 15 who boycotted presented their case, since they appeared to be insinuating something without saying anything. And that is completely unfair.

Vilda has no charge, no accusation and not even an innuendo of wrongdoing of anything like what you are talking about. Ever. 

Which is where I object to how he's been vilified.

As things have played out, it is very probable that the real concern of the 15 when they sent their email to the Federation a year ago was the Federation. That they were concerned about how things were being done from the top, not on the pitch. Then things like comparatives with the Men's NT came out, travel arrangements, having physios available, not having so many in a hotel room. All federation things.

Remember, Vilda took Spain to a loss vs. the US in France, in a very close match, and then lost to England last summer in the Euros, a game they were winning until late. 

So for me, it is a character assassination, because there are tons of people who think like you do, and make comparisons like you just have. 

As the former Barça coach Lluís Cortès, who won the first champions, was booted out in similar circumstances, all innuendo, and again from Barça players, pressure on the basis of thin air, there's a pattern there which for me is very dangerous (Cortès made the unlucky decision to go to Ukraine and had to flee when the war broke out).

Every time a female player does not like a coach--male or female, thinking about what happened with coaches at Portland Thorn recently--she can start a rumour mill. Do players get to name their own coaches? How is that supposed to work? 

Vilda is objectively a good coach. Probably the best in the world right now, the whole Sarina Wiegman business is a bit much. He deserves to be able to go into the market and find work and prove himself. 

I'll be completely honest here - you're preaching to the choir.  I still have no idea what Vilda did specifically that so incensed the 15 (yes, he conducted bed checks every night - was that it?).

As for the trend to judgement based on innuendo and the court of public opinion - well, that bothers me just as much as it bothers you I think.  The fundamental ability for the defense to present a case, establish context, defend themselves against accusations, call their own witnesses and make their own arguments, is completely lost.  Vilda (in my opinion) is being presumptively lumped in with Rubiales as part of the old-school misogyny club ("After all, they've supported each other and he applauded at Rubiales' speech, right?  Las 15 had it right the first time!"), and sacrificially axed to appease the media and public opinion gods.  Worse yet, his legacy and future employment opportunities will be tainted accordingly.  It's very unfair, especially when the innuendo overshadows a monumental accomplishment (i.e. winning the World Cup with your B squad).

Btw, did you hear that Ceferin (UEFA President) is now being called a misogynist for the way in which he handed the Coach of the Year trophy to Sarina Wiegman ("Be careful, it's heavy")?  Interesting times... 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, GasPed said:

I'll be completely honest here - you're preaching to the choir.  I still have no idea what Vilda did specifically that so incensed the 15 (yes, he conducted bed checks every night - was that it?).

As for the trend to judgement based on innuendo and the court of public opinion - well, that bothers me just as much as it bothers you I think.  The fundamental ability for the defense to present a case, establish context, defend themselves against accusations, call their own witnesses and make their own arguments, is completely lost.  Vilda (in my opinion) is being presumptively lumped in with Rubiales as part of the old-school misogyny club ("After all, they've supported each other and he applauded at Rubiales' speech, right?  Las 15 had it right the first time!"), and sacrificially axed to appease the media and public opinion gods.  Worse yet, his legacy and future employment opportunities will be tainted accordingly.  It's very unfair, especially when the innuendo overshadows a monumental accomplishment (i.e. winning the World Cup with your B squad).

Btw, did you hear that Ceferin (UEFA President) is now being called a misogynist for the way in which he handed the Coach of the Year trophy to Sarina Wiegman ("Be careful, it's heavy")?  Interesting times... 

Good of you to pick up on the bed checks.

Seems that was a thing they did with the previous coach, up to 2015, and he did it early on. Weird the head coach would do that, not assistants, checking to see if they were in bed, like kids at summer camp.

But not surprised the women lacked the discipline to meet the curfew, it was all amateur hour for years, and not only in Spain. So many things about the way women have been coached and prepared were amateur for so long. And even now. I was at the Champions League semi final when Chelsea visited Camp Nou, and the warmup exercises they were doing and then at the half, were childish. It was embarrassing, it was like what we did in 1976.

A good part of the narrative of the women's game development is about growing pains, and those pains are often the result of not being held to a fully professional standard.

There is a lot about the women's game that has to grow up still, there is too much pandering still, a lot of softness. I posted this about Sinclair: she has had the privilege to never have to hear she passes awfully and is hurting the team with that garbage. Sometime they too  need to hear they are totally screwing up without that being reason to whine about the sexist coach. So that may sound very macho, but I don't think it is: women want to win and compete just the same as men, so if they want that and still prefer coahes who are soft and easy on them, that seems sexist. 

[red card]

Spain's Liga F players are going on strike for the first 2 weeks of the season that starts this weekend.

The players want the minimum wage raised to 23k euros from 16k. If league makes over 8 million euros from sponsors, they want the min raised to 25k. Futpro says league has enough money coming from tv rights and gets government funding.

DAZN holds liga F global rights for all matches at a reported 7 million euros/yr for 5 years. In Spain, it charges about 10 euros/month for just liga F while it often shows 2 matches/week for free internationally on Youtube. Mediapro is also paying 1 million euros/yr for a match/week on its free-to-air channel in Spain.

League only wants it raised to 20k because it has a long list of expenses, including licenses and refereeing costs and need to give 20% of sponsors money to the federation (same as La Liga).

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/world/europe/spain-women-soccer-strike.html

Edited September 8, 2023 by red card

[GasPed]

17 hours ago, red card said:

Spain's Liga F players are going on strike for the first 2 weeks of the season that starts this weekend.

The players want the minimum wage raised to 23k euros from 16k. If league makes over 8 million euros from sponsors, they want the min raised to 25k. Futpro says league has enough money coming from tv rights and gets government funding.

DAZN holds liga F global rights for all matches at a reported 7 million euros/yr for 5 years. In Spain, it charges about 10 euros/month for just liga F while it often shows 2 matches/week for free internationally on Youtube. Mediapro is also paying 1 million euros/yr for a match/week on its free-to-air channel in Spain.

League only wants it raised to 20k because it has a long list of expenses, including licenses and refereeing costs and need to give 20% of sponsors money to the federation (same as La Liga).

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/world/europe/spain-women-soccer-strike.html

There's a lot happening with the Spanish women these days, and I don't know how much (if any) of the issues are related, but from an outsider's perspective it really looks very messy.  I certainly hope reasonable heads prevail in all of it.

[The Ref]

Really? According Spanish law if Rubiales is found guilty of sexual assault as the prosecutor accused him of, Rubiales can face up to 4 years in prison.  Man, that kiss was a hot one.

Edited September 9, 2023 by The Ref
one letter too many

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, The Ref said:

Really? According Spanish law if Rubiales is found guilty of sexual assault as the prosecutor accused him of, Rubiales can face up to 4 years in prison.  Man, that kiss was a hot one.

It seems clear to me an incident that took place in Australia should be judged in Australia, but I'm not a jurist.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:23 AM, red card said:

Spain's Liga F players are going on strike for the first 2 weeks of the season that starts this weekend.

The players want the minimum wage raised to 23k euros from 16k. If league makes over 8 million euros from sponsors, they want the min raised to 25k. Futpro says league has enough money coming from tv rights and gets government funding.

DAZN holds liga F global rights for all matches at a reported 7 million euros/yr for 5 years. In Spain, it charges about 10 euros/month for just liga F while it often shows 2 matches/week for free internationally on Youtube. Mediapro is also paying 1 million euros/yr for a match/week on its free-to-air channel in Spain.

League only wants it raised to 20k because it has a long list of expenses, including licenses and refereeing costs and need to give 20% of sponsors money to the federation (same as La Liga).

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/world/europe/spain-women-soccer-strike.html

Thanks. In many ways this is a different story. The collective agreement of a few years ago established a strong ground, now they're trying to take the next step.

The real problem is that the Spanish league has 16 teams and proper promotion and relegation, and some very modest teams with small fanbases, stadiums, make it to top flight. So their finances are very tight, they don't have a million to spend on salaries and travel (like a CPL team). They can't even attract sponsors. So they're competing with veritable powerhouses with LaLiga men's teams. None of the bigger 8-12 teams have real problems with the costs, they can shift sponsorship money from the men or use the women for "starter" sponsors (Barça had no room for Stanley tools with the men, so they got a foot in the door with the women).

An example of a modest team in Liga F is Levante-Las Planas in a Barcelona suburb, small neighborhood stadium, no men's program of note. The second best women's team in the city. They stayed up last year after promoting, a bit of a miracle. They struggle to be minimally pro.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Levante_Las_Planas

Unlike the US, England or other leagues, Spain prefers this "problem" of a bigger league, which means another hundred players are getting top flight experience, vs some of the best teams and players in the world, while making 20k a year. Instead of worrying that every team in a small elite league is financially buoyant,  development first.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[red card]

Rubiales has resigned as first mentioned in this interview with Piers Morgan. In a later statement, he didn't offer an apology but resigned because: Insisting on waiting and clinging to it is not going to contribute to anything positive, neither to the federation nor to Spanish soccer. Among other things, because there are factual powers that will prevent my return.

Since sons are never mentioned, I do wish men don't bring up their daughters in these discussions especially for Rubiales who has missed support payments.

Note that Morgan said Quinn shouldn't have been playing at the World Cup.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by red card

[RS]

Of course he was interviewed by Piers Morgan.

[mtlfan]

4 hours ago, red card said:

Rubiales has resigned as first mentioned in this interview with Piers Morgan. In a later statement, he didn't offer an apology but resigned because: Insisting on waiting and clinging to it is not going to contribute to anything positive, neither to the federation nor to Spanish soccer. Among other things, because there are factual powers that will prevent my return.

Since sons are never mentioned, I do wish men don't bring up their daughters in these discussions especially for Rubiales who has missed support payments.

Note that Morgan said Quinn shouldn't have been playing at the World Cup.

 

He points out that Quinn is just pretending she is not a women as she would not be eligible to play if she is a real transgender person.

[The Ref]

I wonder if Jenny Hermoso is now such a hot potato that no coach or team would want anything to do with her.

[mtlfan]

I don't think it will hurt her career as she did not do anything wrong.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, The Ref said:

I wonder if Jenny Hermoso is now such a hot potato that no coach or team would want anything to do with her.

That's ridiculous, if any team thinks that. She's a great player, some said one of Spain's best this tournament, and from all evidence a great teammate. I understand why we let her go at Barça but she's very respected and any top team in the world would be lucky to have her. 

I really think she would have preferred to have not had anything to do with this mess. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, red card said:

Rubiales has resigned as first mentioned in this interview with Piers Morgan. In a later statement, he didn't offer an apology but resigned because: Insisting on waiting and clinging to it is not going to contribute to anything positive, neither to the federation nor to Spanish soccer. Among other things, because there are factual powers that will prevent my return.

Since sons are never mentioned, I do wish men don't bring up their daughters in these discussions especially for Rubiales who has missed support payments.

Note that Morgan said Quinn shouldn't have been playing at the World Cup.

 

A bit pathetic how Rubiales took the big payment from that lunatic Piers, who seems to have offered him cash in return for a newsworthy story (the resignation).

No better way to prove you're a weak insecure male than to fawn over these media daddies whose sole purpose is to comfort weak insecure men in the name of defending masculinity.

 

[red card]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:23 PM, red card said:

Spain's Liga F players are going on strike for the first 2 weeks of the season that starts this weekend.

The players want the minimum wage raised to 23k euros from 16k. If league makes over 8 million euros from sponsors, they want the min raised to 25k. Futpro says league has enough money coming from tv rights and gets government funding.

DAZN holds liga F global rights for all matches at a reported 7 million euros/yr for 5 years. In Spain, it charges about 10 euros/month for just liga F while it often shows 2 matches/week for free internationally on Youtube. Mediapro is also paying 1 million euros/yr for a match/week on its free-to-air channel in Spain.

League only wants it raised to 20k because it has a long list of expenses, including licenses and refereeing costs and need to give 20% of sponsors money to the federation (same as La Liga).

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/world/europe/spain-women-soccer-strike.html

Liga F strike is settled. Players get 21k euros min salary: 1k above league offer but 2k below players demand.

First match on DAZN is this Friday at 1500 EDT featuring Valencia v Real Madrid. 2 more matches on Saturday including Madrid CFF v Barcelona at 1300.

Frauen Bundesliga also starts this Friday on DAZN with Frieburg v Bayern at 1215. Then 2 more matches on Sunday including Wolfsburg v Leverkusen at 1000.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Liga F strike is settled. Players get 21k euros min salary: 1k above league offer but 2k below players demand.

First match on DAZN is this Friday at 1500 EDT featuring Valencia v Real Madrid. 2 more matches on Saturday including Madrid CFF v Barcelona at 1300.

Frauen Bundesliga also starts this Friday on DAZN with Frieburg v Bayern at 1215. Then 2 more matches on Sunday including Wolfsburg v Leverkusen at 1000.

 

That's before taxes, which are low at this salary level. 

Then there are increments of 1500€ gross per year next season and 1000 the one after. Adding increments each season if the business of the league grows, suggesting players at the bottom rung will get increases from the league, through their clubs, based on the success of it's business model.

Spanish minimum wage currently works out to just over 15,000/year.

What is admirable is how the big hitting players, who are all making far more, supported a strike benefitting the players on weaker teams at pro entry level.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[BearcatSA]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:09 PM, RS said:

Of course he was interviewed by Piers Morgan.

I keep envisioning a particularly bad episode of Britain's Got Talent!:

Morgan:  "So, Luis, what are you going to show us this evening?"

 

 

[Cheeta]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:17 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

A bit pathetic how THAT TWAT Rubiales took the big payment from that lunatic  TWAT Piers, who seems to have offered him cash in return for a newsworthy story (the resignation).

...

 

FYP.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Re Piers Morgan, people here are laughing how Rubiales, a UEFA VP, changed only occasionally to English to be more emphatic or make his point, and ended up exposing his useless level of English and his own clownish mentality at once.

[Unnamed Trialist]

There isn't a day this isn't newsworthy, it is quite amazing. Tebas, the head of La Liga, said that it was one of the most viral stories in recent years from the stats they were seeing. 

Latest is that the have Nations League this week, away to Sweden, and the majority of WC players and many more made a statement that they preferred not to be called up. Interestingly, the Swedes said they'd support them if they didn't come.

The players say the federation had not done enough with Rubiales being removed, or the change with Vilda, that it was just one of 5 major demands. They especially took aim at the communications team, as it was perceived they had tried to discredit the original 15 boycotters a year ago and were still trying to dredge up shit on the players, and force Hermoso to retract, to defend Rubiales just a few weeks ago. 

They they wanted the women's part of the federation restructured, for it to be given a professional business structure, things like that. 

The new coach, a women and former pro, called up many who said they preferred not to go and the reaction was that it was a provocation, that they were still trying to ignore the demands and force the players into an uncomfortable situation. Then she did not call up Hermoso, "to protect her" and Hermoso has come out criticising this as it is an arbitrary decision, that she never asked to be protected. 

So it was not clear if the group would even show up for the camp, or go if they did. In the end they spent all night, until 5am today, negotiating with the deputy minister for Sport and the federation, and all the players except two have decided to travel to Sweden. The two saying they are not happy with things still are two who missed the World Cup being good enough to be there, CB Mapi León and mid Patri Guijarro, the MVP of the Champions League final. 

[The Ref]

When will all this ends.  Now Hermoso is going for money trying to freeze Rubiales assets.  What was a successful world cup for Spain now it will be remembered as the kissing cup.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 9/20/2023 at 6:25 PM, The Ref said:

When will all this ends.  Now Hermoso is going for money trying to freeze Rubiales assets.  What was a successful world cup for Spain now it will be remembered as the kissing cup.

They beat #1 ranked Sweden yesterday, playing very well with lots of players rotated. 

The Swedes were supportive of the cause in the stadium.

I think football fans will remember the play, mostly because I think they'll continue to win trophies.

[The Ref]

When in Spain don't kiss anyone it is considered a sexual act and you can go to jail for up to 4 years.

[Unnamed Trialist]

19 minutes ago, The Ref said:

When in Spain don't kiss anyone it is considered a sexual act and you can go to jail for up to 4 years.

I think if you look at non-consensual touching and of an intimate nature, it may be common in other countries. 

In Spain, thing is, it is extremely common to kiss. You kiss both cheeks when introduced to someone (Netherlands it is three, by the way) even my son found it hard not to do this back in Canada.

While Covid reduced the habit, it is still extremely common; I got used to it and do it, but have reduced it these last years. Also common is hugging, hand-holding (entire families blocking sidewalks just when you are in a hurry). And Rubiales being from the south, and a working class background, even more so. There is a common touchy-feely way of doing things, more in the south than the north, more in the working classes, that even has some oddly irritating manifestations coming from the upper middle and upper class: watch Barça president Laporta, he pats players' faces, cuffs the backs of necks,grapples necks and pulls them towards him.  I find this a form of rather fake comraderie that some monied classes use to make like they are buddies, when they are really not and have no real social solidarity, but it is common in certain circles. 

That all of this general culture has then served to veil and obscure really abusive actions, there is no question. Women close to me have often told of certain actions, certain "respectable" gentlemen in high places, who were physically and verbally harassing as a matter of fact and whom had to be avoided in certain circumstances out of fear of getting into a fix. One of these people I heard about happens to be the father of a goalkeeper who has been in Spanish first division.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist