2024 CONCACAF Champions Cup

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

"Fans will be able to enjoy the live event through the Confederation's TV partner networks, including FOX Sports | Tubi (USA-English), TUDN | ViX (USA-Spanish), Fox Sports Mexico (Mexico-Spanish), ESPN | Star+ (Central America, Caribbean, and South America), and the Concacaf Official Platforms for all other territories (subject to territory restrictions)."

So does that mean, the draw won't be on OneSoccer? CONCACAF Youtube? Or CONCACAF.com maybe?

What would be more significant is if it implies Onesoccer haven't bought the rights in a Canadian context and will not be showing the actual games? There was never much doubt that the first round was going to be in February because of the UEFA style fall-spring format followed by most of CONCACAF so what's going to happen with the logistics of the Cavalry's home leg will be interesting to watch unfold. Canada's participation is likely being treated as an afterthought in a you can always withdraw if you don't like it sort of way.

[Kent]

26 minutes ago, narduch said:

There is also a scenario where if Vancouver wins MLS Cup, Montreal would qualify for CCC.

I am also interested to see if making the Carribean or Central American Cup finals would give a team enough of a boost to be seeded in the Preliminary round draw. 

Thanks for the Montreal call out. I've updated my previous post.

As for a Caribbean or Central American team making Pot 1, I doubt it. Keep in mind there are only semis and finals left. It's 2 legs, but best case scenario they would win both legs of the semis, then a win and a loss (or 2 draws, not sure which would be better ranking wise) in the final, and these results would be against similarly ranked teams, not big favourites (that would give more ranking points). Alajualense is the highest ranked Central American or Caribbean team left in those tournaments, and they would have to move from 45th up to 10th.

But I haven't been following along closely. I don't know if it's mathematically possible. Keep in mind MLS teams can't tank in the rankings now that it's playoff time (meaning they can't go on losing streaks) and there are 21 MLS teams between Alajualense and 10th.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Kent

[phil03]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What would be more significant is if it implies Onesoccer haven't bought the rights in a Canadian context and will not be showing the actual games? There was never much doubt that the first round was going to be in February because of the UEFA style fall-spring format followed by most of CONCACAF so what's going to happen with the logistics of the Cavalry's home leg will be interesting to watch unfold. Canada's participation is likely being treated as an afterthought in a you can always withdraw if you don't like it sort of way.

Honestly, I'd say that this is a when life gives you lemon kind of situation. CONCACAF has set the first round for February? Well, I guess whoever get drawn against Forge and Cavalry will get to play in Hamilton or Calgary in February (Vancouver is actually not too bad), which will probably be pretty healthy for the CPL clubs' odds of pulling an upset... If their opponents don't like it they can blame the confederation.

[Kent]

1 minute ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I'd say that this is a when life gives you lemon kind of situation. CONCACAF has set the first round for February? Well, I guess whoever get drawn against Forge and Cavalry will get to play in Hamilton or Calgary in February (Vancouver is actually not too bad), which will probably be pretty healthy for the CPL clubs' odds of pulling an upset... If their opponents don't like it they can blame the confederation.

Well the February games will give the CPL teams the weather advantage, but their opponents will have the "It's not 2 months until our season starts" advantage.

[narduch]

Even a home game in Toronto or Montreal could have a bitter cold night in early February if there is a cold spell.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The Forge have already managed to do it previously because THF has fieldturf. The problem logistically is how a grass pitch can be made playable at that time of year in Calgary. The attitude of soccer's governing bodies is that's your problem to figure out how you are going to host this. In a Montreal context the solution has been to use the Big Owe.

[narduch]

Considering Concacaf still made Canada play on that swamp in Honduras in Nations League I'm not sure they have the highest standards. 

Besides whatever Cavalry can offer is probably still better than the surface for Commonwealth in Edmonton from WCQ

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There was never much doubt that the first round was going to be in February because of the UEFA style fall-spring format followed by most of CONCACAF

I think there was never much doubt it was going to start in February because Leagues Cup starts in July and the CONCACAF will want this over before that.

[Kent]

6 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think there was never much doubt it was going to start in February because Leagues Cup starts in July and the CONCACAF will want this over before that.

Exactly. Leagues Cup in July, Central American and Caribbean Cups from August to December. They could always swap positions of the continental and the sub-continental competitions if they have any concern about CPL stadiums' ability to host games in February, since CPL teams don't get to play in a sub-continental tournament.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Exactly. Leagues Cup in July, Central American and Caribbean Cups from August to December. They could always swap positions of the continental and the sub-continental competitions if they have any concern about CPL stadiums' ability to host games in February, since CPL teams don't get to play in a sub-continental tournament.

I don't think that's going to happen.

I believe MLS lobbied for the tournament to be at the start of the year v 2nd half of the year because they didn't want it to coincidence with their playoffs.

This is an aside, but I see a lot of talk of MLS and Liga MX joining Copa Libertadores but I don't even know how you can even fit that into the calendar 

[SpursFlu]

11 hours ago, narduch said:

There is also a scenario where if Vancouver wins MLS Cup, Montreal would qualify for CCC.

I am also interested to see if making the Carribean or Central American Cup finals would give a team enough of a boost to be seeded in the Preliminary round draw. 

According to my calculations. The only MLS team that can qualify without winning the MLS Cup are the Revolution

[Kent]

45 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

According to my calculations. The only MLS team that can qualify without winning the MLS Cup are the Revolution

According to Wikipedia, if Vancouver wins they will use the MLS Cup spot rather than the Voyageurs Cup spot (MLS Cup spot skips the first round), so Montreal gets the Voyageurs Cup spot because they were runners up. But I don't know where the source of that info is. If anyone has a link to something official that'd be great to see.

[red card]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Exactly. Leagues Cup in July, Central American and Caribbean Cups from August to December. They could always swap positions of the continental and the sub-continental competitions if they have any concern about CPL stadiums' ability to host games in February, since CPL teams don't get to play in a sub-continental tournament.

3 hours ago, narduch said:

I don't think that's going to happen.

I believe MLS lobbied for the tournament to be at the start of the year v 2nd half of the year because they didn't want it to coincidence with their playoffs.

This is an aside, but I see a lot of talk of MLS and Liga MX joining Copa Libertadores but I don't even know how you can even fit that into the calendar 

This opinion piece puts the challenged scheduling on Don Garber:

 

..this is what MLS gets for forcing the Leagues Cup on the American Soccer Calendar to add more games for no reason. They are forcing more matches on already crowded fixtures in MLS. We saw US Open Cup rounds being interfered with Champions Cup match weeks, and it's not far to either competition to have this interference.

All I want from Don Garber is to stay in his lane. All he should worry about is making MLS grow and making it better than it was last season. To make it all make sense. Let US Soccer govern the game and make the necessary moves to improve, and allow CONCACAF to do its part to grow the game within the entire region....I want Don Garber to stop trying to make the MLS what the NFL does.

https://beyondthe90.substack.com/p/concacaf-champions-cup-schedule-challenges

 

[Shway]

A F$%^&* men brother @red card. I couldn't agree more.

This year MLS team's are going to experience a cluster fuck of a schedule, and we might see teams picking and choosing which competition they want to compete in as a result.

US Open Cup in May (all teams)
CCC in May to June
Copa America from June to July (will they pause?)
League Cups from July to August. 

Garber will probably split the schedule into 2 and teams will only play their conference opponents. 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If the Leagues Cup hadn't happened, CONCACAF still appears to have wanted a North American regional tournament of some description (their proposal involved CanPL clubs) so were the extra games really coming from Don Garber or from Victor Montagliani?

Think there's a tendency in the United States and I guess to a lesser extent also in Canada to assume everything has to automatically revolve around what the American league wants. CONCACAF competition has been happening for decades usually with only marginal interest even from soccer people in the United States and Canada.

A lot of what has unfolded will have been driven by what keeps the Central American and Caribbean nations happy. Victor Montagliani and other CONCACAF officeholders need to keep those federations happy to keep their jobs because that's where most of the votes are.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Watchmen]

41 minutes ago, Shway said:

A F$%^&* men brother @red card. I couldn't agree more.

This year MLS team's are going to experience a cluster fuck of a schedule, and we might see teams picking and choosing which competition they want to compete in as a result.

US Open Cup in May (all teams)
CCC in May to June
Copa America from June to July (will they pause?)
League Cups from July to August. 

Garber will probably split the schedule into 2 and teams will only play their conference opponents. 

This isn't different from England, where teams compete in the league, the FA Cup, the League Cup, and (potentially) Europe.

It also isn't different from last year, just substitute the Gold Cup for the Copa. I don't think they'll be splitting the schedule in 2 or only play within their conferences.

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, narduch said:

This is an aside, but I see a lot of talk of MLS and Liga MX joining Copa Libertadores but I don't even know how you can even fit that into the calendar 

You couldn't. The previous agreement when Liga MX teams participated was that only teams that didn't qualify for the Concacaf CL could participate, meaning Liga MX was sending their 5-7th ranked teams IIRC.

It's also not really practical- the distances the clubs would all have to travel would be enormous.

I think that "mini-tournament" between the Concacaf winners (tbd) and Conmebol cup winners is the compromise.

[Kent]

20 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

This isn't different from England, where teams compete in the league, the FA Cup, the League Cup, and (potentially) Europe.

It also isn't different from last year, just substitute the Gold Cup for the Copa. I don't think they'll be splitting the schedule in 2 or only play within their conferences.

The break for Leagues cup doesn't have a parallel in England, and playing through continental competitions (and the World Cup aside from 2022) doesn't happen in England either, aside from the African Cup of Nations which they have no break for in England, they just do without the players that play in that tournament.

Also due to climate, MLS has a 3.75 month offseason, and the EPL has a 2.25 month offseason (but also 4 more regular season games, and the Champions League is more games than our Champions Cup).

I'm not saying they will split the schedule into conferences, but fixture congestion is a problem here and in Europe.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 

A lot of what has unfolded will have been driven by what keeps the Central American and Caribbean nations happy. Victor Montagliani and other CONCACAF officeholders need to keep those federations happy to keep their jobs because that's where most of the votes are.

The Central American countries are actually unhappy that they get no automatic places in the CCC.

I think it's a valid argument that Honduras,  Costa Rica, Guatemala and Panama should have at least 1 guaranteed spot.

As it stands now, there may not be any Honduras teams in the CCC

[narduch]

Really the CCC should run from March to November.

I don't think any other Confederation (Oceania doesn't really count) compresses their Champions League like Concacaf does.

Also they really need to bring back a Group Stage

[Shway]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

This isn't different from England, where teams compete in the league, the FA Cup, the League Cup, and (potentially) Europe.

It also isn't different from last year, just substitute the Gold Cup for the Copa. I don't think they'll be splitting the schedule in 2 or only play within their conferences.

I'm going to repeat some of @Kentpoints and add some...

- They don't play through the summer which affects calls ups(Continental tournaments, and FCWC) quality drops when teams are missing there key players. 

- UEFA competitions only involve 35% of the teams, and it's stretched out over 10 months. Leagues Cup takes a month break from league play to include 100% of the teams. (Some teams were off for almost two weeks). CCC while doesn't have 32 teams (24), and a group stage it takes place over 5 months.

- EPL has 20 teams balanced schedule, MLS has 29 (and growing) teams and besides it being unbalanced, some teams don't play each other at all. 

- EPL has a shorter off-season allowing the schedule to be a little more stretched, whereas MLS has a longer offseason causing the season to be more condensed. 

- EPL doesn't play during international windows, MLS does.

- EPL doesn't have parity and they have relegation so team expectations vary based on clubs. MLS is built off parity and clubs will have the opportunity to have a second season halfway through. (inter Miami).

So ultimately it very much so is different from the EPL, as there isn't a lot of overlap of tournaments outside of the top 7 clubs, where MLS has it from the jump with 10 clubs. Depth isn't an issue in the EPL as it is in MLS. 

Im also not saying they will split the schedule, but I won't be surprised if they did. I think what's stopping that from happening now is Messimania.

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

I'm not saying they will split the schedule into conferences, but fixture congestion is a problem here and in Europe.

This is more where I was going with it, that fixture congestion isn't unique to MLS.  It's a problem in Europe as well, and teams there also prioritize some competitions over others.  Bigger teams throw out B squads for the early stages of the League Cup, for instance.

[Kent]

45 minutes ago, Shway said:

MLS is built off parity

I just want to say, this is a myth.

[Shway]

23 minutes ago, Kent said:

I just want to say, this is a myth.

It is...and it isn't. 
I get it because teams spend differently, and with less restrictions on free agency it has changed this. 

But parity to me is equal opportunity. And every MLS club has this, whether they take advantage of it or not doesn't dispute the reality of what parity is.

[Watchmen]

Well, I'm boldly going to predict that Cavalier from Jamaica is one of the teams in the CCC, with their 5-0 first leg road win.

Moca of the Dominican Republic has a narrow 1-0 lead over Robinhood of Suriname. 

All games in the Central American Cup tonight ended in a draw.