New Format CCL 2023/2024

[phil03]

18 hours ago, RJB said:

Any time a team qualifies twice, one spot should simply go to the next highest ranked team in the league.  So if a team wins the league and the playoffs, second place in the league gets in.  If a team wins the league, and the playoffs, and the Voyageurs Cup, then second and third in the league should get in.  The particular trophy runner-up should not get in that way, so as to avoid MLS teams getting one of Canada's spots by default.  Win and you're in, or else it goes the league way.

So by that reasoning, if Montreal was to win the Voyageurs Cup and also get place through the MLS or the Leagues Cup then the place ought to go to the CPL even if the final was against Vancouver and the third-best finishing team was TFC? That would be unfair both unfair and needless antagonistic to MLS clubs and their fans.

IMO the way it ought to work, and by my understanding it does, is that the place (I think two places ought to have been determined through it but that ship has already sailed) in Voyageurs Cup is determined by the results of the Voyageurs Cup and the places determined by the CPL are given based to CPL clubs, no matter what. Its what CONCACAF's website says too:

So that in this scenario:

On 1/31/2023 at 3:07 PM, Kent said:

It becomes very messy very quickly with that kind of stuff. Let's say the V Cup final was between Toronto and Montreal. Toronto wins, they make it to the CCL.

Then York United win the regular season, so they get a spot. Then York United make it to the final against Valour. If Valour wins, CPL has 2 representatives in the Champions League, fun times for the league and the commissioner/president is happy. But if York United wins, Valour is out, and instead Montreal gets the final spot? Why do they get a spot that was meant for a competition they aren't even a part of? Do we now get into conspiracy theory realm that if Valour wins, it's because the league wanted it to happen so they get 2 spots?

Yuck!

TFC would enter the tournament for their performances in MLS or in Leagues Cup, in the same way Montréal would have as next best club if the format had already changed this year.

Since TFC is already qualified otherwise then the spot for the Voyageurs Cup would go to Montréal.

CPL-wise the place for regular season champion that York United doesn't need would go to whoever was in second place in the regular season, lets say Valour for the sake of the discussion.

So in that scenario Canada would have four entry that year: TFC, Impact, York United and Valour, and nobody would have cause to complain, really. 

On 1/31/2023 at 7:36 AM, narduch said:

Also wonder what happens if a CPL club wins the Voyageurs Cup and also qualifies through the league

That is indeed the trickiest scenario. Based on how the CONCACAF website read, with the Canada Championship being mentioned before the CPL, my understanding is that this club would enter as Voyageurs Cup champion and that the place for the CPL would be redistributed accordingly. It isn't the way I would have done it but a call had to be made either way, I suppose.

Edited February 4, 2023 by phil03

[Ansem]

Logically based of what's done elsewhere

Scenarios:

Montreal winning VCup + qualifying via MLS

• Montreal goes to CCL via VCup
• Next best MLS Club goes to CCL via the league

 

Cavalry winning VCup + CPL Cup or/and CPL regular season

• Cavalry goes to CCL via VCup
• Next best CPL club(s) in regular season goes to CCL via the league

 

Potential confusion

TFC wins MLS Cup or League Cup + VCup

• MLS & League Cup winners goes straight into the round of 16 while the VCup doesn't (1st round only)
• Logically - TFC goes to Round of 16 while being VCup champions (keep the trophy)
• The CSA would have to decide who gets that berth : Runner-up of VCup or Next best CPL club via the league*

*Runner-up to domestic cups usually don't get berth into continental tournaments, if you look up qualifiers for Europa, "next best league club goes"

• Next best CPL club goes to CCL 1st round

Edited February 7, 2023 by Ansem

[SpursFlu]

The whole thing seems so confusing but if you look on Wikipedia it's just broken down as a bracket and it's really simple 

[Kent]

3 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

The whole thing seems so confusing but if you look on Wikipedia it's just broken down as a bracket and it's really simple 

Yeah, the format isn't confusing if you assume all the teams that qualify only qualify in one way. The only confusing thing is what to do if teams qualify via multiple different pathways. There doesn't seem to be a set of rules determining who gets which spot in those weird scenarios. It feels like they are going with the "hope it doesn't happen" strategy.

[Watchmen]

Renamed to Concacaf Champions Cup. Prize money for the winner increased to $5m. If you were hoping for a return of the group stage, that doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

 

[red card]

US$500k to $5 million in financial distributions and prize money to winner now puts it ahead of AFC & CAF which are at $4 million and OFC's 75k.

Though, the Saudis seem interested in backing the CAF Champions League. 

UEFA leads with about $22 million winner prize money while Libertadores winner gets $18 million and Sudamericana is at $5 million.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, red card said:

US$500k to $5 million in financial distributions and prize money to winner now puts it ahead of AFC & CAF which are at $4 million and OFC's 75k.

Though, the Saudis seem interested in backing the CAF Champions League. 

UEFA leads with about $22 million winner prize money while Libertadores winner gets $18 million and Sudamericana is at $5 million.

The new African Super League is saying they'll pay the winner $11.5m, though obviously we'll see if that gets off the ground. 

[SpursFlu]

Really good news

Bit of a spin off.. I think something lost in the shuffle is the new Central American Cup. The draw goes on Thursday. 20 teams, groups of 5 top 2 advance to knockout phase. 5 teams advance to Champions Cup. This feels like a proper league and I kinda feel that competition will really take off and up the level in CA

Edited June 7, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Metro]

15 hours ago, red card said:

US$500k to $5 million in financial distributions and prize money to winner now puts it ahead of AFC & CAF which are at $4 million and OFC's 75k.

Though, the Saudis seem interested in backing the CAF Champions League. 

UEFA leads with about $22 million winner prize money while Libertadores winner gets $18 million and Sudamericana is at $5 million.

Is the $500K what a team gets just to qualify?  Sorry, I couldn't find the answer anywhere else.

[Ansem]

I'm calling it now - CONCACAF will bring back the group stage. Why let only MLS benefit from Messi who might bring Suarez, Busquets and Di Maria with him when you can stretch the tournament and grow the game in the region. Montagliani smells the dollars too

 

[Watchmen]

18 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm calling it now - CONCACAF will bring back the group stage. Why let only MLS benefit from Messi who might bring Suarez, Busquets and Di Maria with him when you can stretch the tournament and grow the game in the region. Montagliani smells the dollars too

 

You think Messi is going to any non-MLS/Liga MX stadiums? He's not even guaranteed to go everywhere in MLS.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

You think Messi is going to any non-MLS/Liga MX stadiums? He's not even guaranteed to go everywhere in MLS.

Lol - he's MLS property only? As if he never played in Central America 🙄

He's old enough to decide for himself and besides, winning CCL means going back facing Euro giants and even possibly Ronaldo if he gets the job done in Asia.

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Lol - he's MLS property only? As if he never played in Central America 🙄

He's old enough to decide for himself and besides, winning CCL means going back facing Euro giants and even possibly Ronaldo if he gets the job done in Asia.

1) Has he ever played in Central America? I legitimately don't know.

2) Yes, I agree he'd decide for himself. And I think he'd decide not to go on those types of away trips.

Further, there's no guarantee Inter qualifies for the CCL. What they do qualify for is the Leagues Cup. Might have just made that a more valuable property for everyone (including CONCACAF).

[SpursFlu]

Why wouldn't he go to Central America? 

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

1) Has he ever played in Central America? I legitimately don't know.

To be fair, not recently but he played Guatemala in 2013

 

19 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

2) Yes, I agree he'd decide for himself. And I think he'd decide not to go on those types of away trips.

I don't see the GOAT sitting out games when his club needs him the most - away in Central America. Not that I'd compare South America to central but CONMEBOL qualifiers can be brutal as well depending where they have to play.

 

22 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Further, there's no guarantee Inter qualifies for the CCL. What they do qualify for is the Leagues Cup. Might have just made that a more valuable property for everyone (including CONCACAF).

There's always next season to qualify for CCC. Of course everyone benefits, I'm just saying Concacaf won't pass that chance to use Messi to grow it's Champions League and the sport regionally while increase the competition value globally.

There's been complaints by MLS about schedule congestion and being out of season form in the past prompting the confederation to change its format to accommodate them. If the league can freeze it's season for a month for a League Cup, I don't see why concacaf would put the interest of MLS and the League Cup (they don't make money on that) above its own club competition.

Wanna bet the Mexican clubs with Liga MX wouldn't mind hosting the GOAT in their own stadium since League cup is played exclusively in the US? Group Stage means an increased likelihood of hosting Messi at Azteca or Monterrey.

[Watchmen]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't see the GOAT sitting out games when his club needs him the most - away in Central America. Not that I'd compare South America to central but CONMEBOL qualifiers can be brutal as well depending where they have to play.

He doesn't always attend CONNEMBOL qualifiers either, and playing for the national team is still a different matter from playing for a club team.

I think if he has concerns about playing on turf, he'll have just as many concerns about playing on some of the cow patches in Central America and the Caribbean. 

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

here's always next season to qualify for CCC. Of course everyone benefits, I'm just saying Concacaf won't pass that chance to use Messi to grow it's Champions League and the sport regionally while increase the competition value globally.

I don't know if the group stage grows the CC more locally or globally over the current format.

17 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Wanna bet the Mexican clubs with Liga MX wouldn't mind hosting the GOAT in their own stadium since League cup is played exclusively in the US? Group Stage means an increased likelihood of hosting Messi at Azteca or Monterrey.

Under the current format, 6 clubs are guaranteed entry in to the CC, with 3 more spots available to them from the Leagues Cup. CC is home and away, so I'm not really sure a return to the group stage increases the opportunity for a Liga MX side to host him.

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Under the current format, 6 clubs are guaranteed entry in to the CC, with 3 more spots available to them from the Leagues Cup. CC is home and away, so I'm not really sure a return to the group stage increases the opportunity for a Liga MX side to host him.

Group stage means more games, more airtime that could lead to better media deals (currently brutal), potentially more lucrative sponsors in a competition where Messi and crew plays. Keeping the shorter version would be a stupid business move by concacaf and Montagliani spoke to the importance of growing the region's club competition - who just landed the GOAT. What's one more (of many) revamping of the tournament at this point?

There's still time for Miami to make the playoffs (6 points behind) for next year's tournament. I'm almost joking here, might as well bring back CONCACAF League to ensure he plays in at least one of the 2🤣

 

18 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

He doesn't always attend CONNEMBOL qualifiers either, and playing for the national team is still a different matter from playing for a club team.

I think if he has concerns about playing on turf, he'll have just as many concerns about playing on some of the cow patches in Central America and the Caribbean. 

You're right - he wouldn't be needed in Jamaica or Guatemala but against the likes of Olimpia or the top 3 of Costa Rica, at least off the bench if the game is close makes sense.

 

20 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't know if the group stage grows the CC more locally or globally over the current format.

Global audiences are more likely to tune in to watch Messi in knockout stages against MX or MLS clubs to see if he can win another Champions League trophy than paying an Apple TV subscription to watch Real Salt Lake or Cincinnati 😉

[Watchmen]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Global audiences are more likely to tune in to watch Messi in knockout stages against MX or MLS clubs to see if he can win another Champions League trophy than paying an Apple TV subscription to watch Real Salt Lake or Cincinnati 

Agreed. Which is why the current format makes more sense. It's all knockout stage, loaded with MLS and Liga MX sides.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Agreed. Which is why the current format makes more sense. It's all knockout stage, loaded with MLS and Liga MX sides.

Correct but there's a regional market to grow with lots of potential as well - if you have the tool, use it. Messi is temporary so you got to make his presence count!😉

[Watchmen]

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Correct but there's a regional market to grow with lots of potential as well - if you have the tool, use it. Messi is temporary so you got to make his presence count!😉

Next year's tournament is already set. How long do we think Messi will play in MLS? 2 years? 3? I'm just not sure they revise the tournament for maybe 1 year of Messi.

[Kent]

They literally JUST changed the word "League" to "Cup". I had a faint hope that one day they could potentially bring back the group stage, but after 6 years of no group stage they finally committed to the Cup format longer term by changing the name of the competition. My faint hope is gone.

Messi joining Inter Miami though does give me a faint hope that he could play in a CPL stadium one day. Apparently Miami is in the semi finals of the US Open Cup. If Inter Miami gets into CCC (man that feels weird after years of typing CCL) there will be about a 2 in 11 chance a CPL team gets drawn against Miami (assuming CPL teams would be in the lower seeded pot and Miami would be in the higher seeded pot).

[Ansem]

Also let's not forget that all that change was done before Messi's official arrival. It wouuldn't be the first time concacaf made last minute changes

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 hours ago, Watchmen said:

He doesn't always attend CONNEMBOL qualifiers either, and playing for the national team is still a different matter from playing for a club team.

How many WC qualifiers and Copa Americas has Messi skipped in his entire eligible career? My impression is that he's very committed and hardly ever has missed for no reason.

Anyways, it's 174 games for the seniors since 2006 or so, that's an average of 10 a year.

 

[Kent]

49 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Also let's not forget that all that change was done before Messi's official arrival. It wouuldn't be the first time concacaf made last minute changes

Yeah, what was it, 1 day before? Sorry, but I really don't think they are going to change the club continental championship for 1 guy. When would this change happen? Right after Inter Miami qualifies for Champions League? Before? Let's say they win the US Open Cup to qualify, would they change the format at that moment, then next year Miami doesn't qualify, do they change it back? I'm sorry, but I think what you are suggesting is pie in the sky stuff. I really wish they would bring back the group stage, but I don't think it's happening anytime soon.

[Watchmen]

19 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

How many WC qualifiers and Copa Americas has Messi skipped in his entire eligible career? My impression is that he's very committed and hardly ever has missed for no reason.

Anyways, it's 174 games for the seniors since 2006 or so, that's an average of 10 a year.

 

Never skipped Copa America, and he definitely showed up for WC qualifying for a long time, but I recall him missing qualifiers more recently. Looking in to it, could be his suspension I'm thinking of in 2017.