Canadian "Championship" League (Tier 2)?

[Ansem]

http://m.therecord.com/sports-story/7294235-fledgling-canadian-premier-league-could-come-to-waterloo-region

Beirne sees CPL teams coast to coast and, eventually, in different divisions

What does people makes of it?

[FC_Hali]

I think ideally you would have a standardized div 2 with regional leagues covering every province. Something along the lines of:

• PCSL (BC)
• Western Soccer League (Alberta, Sask, Manitoba)
• L1O
• PLSQ
• Atlantic Premier League

This could be the level for CPL reserve/u23 teams and for clubs/cities that don't have the wherewithal to compete in the CPL (ex Thunder Bay Chill). In a perfect world this would be a semi pro level but right now I'll take a consistent D2 from coast to coast.

If the Atlantic Provincial bodies could get their act together, I think a L1O style league could be realistic out East. A few years ago there was an inter-provincial league but it lacked any resources or organization to be sustainable. This would go a long way to improving the massive player participation drop off after u16.

 

 

[Complete Homer]

Pretty sure he's implying north American style divisions/conferences 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

http://m.therecord.com/sports-story/7294235-fledgling-canadian-premier-league-could-come-to-waterloo-region

Beirne sees CPL teams coast to coast and, eventually, in different divisions

What does people makes of it?

being ambitious.

Who really knows what the future holds.

Cool thing about soccer is that if there is a way to make it to the top league you can engage smaller markets.

But I'm not sure he was referring to promotion or simply having a d2 league affiliate.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

Pretty sure he's implying north American style divisions/conferences 

actually this makes a bit more sense.

[Tigers]

4 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

actually this makes a bit more sense.

That's how I took it - eventually have enough teams to split east-west.

[Gopherbashi]

Yeah, if L1O is still in a single-tier format despite having 16 teams and no revenue difference between a first and second tier, I wouldn't hold my breath on CPL bucking the trend.

[ironcub14]

As long as CPL avoids single entity to start off with, I think with baited and held breath, if all the optimistic scenarios play out the way it does, then CPL could realistically envision a CPL1 and a CPL2 around 2030 or so.

Without getting into specifics, you have seen or are seeing similar things happening in other nascent professional leagues recently in Japan, Korea and Australia. These leagues, plus MLS, all provide some really good recent precedents on how CPL may look like two decades from now.

But sure, PB probably meant conferences for now.

[Complete Homer]

3 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

As long as CPL avoids single entity to start off with

Probably a tall order IMO

[matty]

Wouldn't be shocked if he's talking pro/rel given his background in England. He knows seasons are long and having teams battle to stay up top or get into the top creates interest and he's here to make shit accessible to fans.

I don't think we'll see pro/rel, I think we're going to get Australia's pyramid: Top tier of 10 clubs and like 5 leagues under it with 10+ teams each

[ironcub14]

12 hours ago, matty said:

Wouldn't be shocked if he's talking pro/rel given his background in England. He knows seasons are long and having teams battle to stay up top or get into the top creates interest and he's here to make shit accessible to fans.

I don't think we'll see pro/rel, I think we're going to get Australia's pyramid: Top tier of 10 clubs and like 5 leagues under it with 10+ teams each

You know, the cool thing about Australia's pyramid is that Japan (I think) and Korea had something similar before as well, where the top tier was closed off, but you had a limited/open form of pro/rel in the lower tiers. With sustained success though for the clubs in the top tier, and with more demand from the fans and the media, kinda like the V's forum or smth lol, they eventually instituted p/r for the top tier as well.

I like how all these natural evolutions happened incrementally. And that's why I said 2030, if not much later, in my comment above for CPL, it's going to take a long time and a high degree of success, which obviously isn't guaranteed. But it's important to set things in structure in the beginning, to set things up for the long-term.

[ironcub14]

15 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Probably a tall order IMO

Here's to hoping the owners may avoid the pure single entity system and find other ways to pool the risks collectively, a tall order it may be. Definitely saying this with the long-term in mind, with p/r being one of the main issues that will rear its head later on, along with all the LA Galaxy ping pong balls you mentioned in the single entity thread

I put this in that thread as well, but I thought I'd include it here as well. Was having a convo with Bob Young a week ago on twitter, and I tried to briefly input if they could consider avoiding pure single entity somehow. Highly doubt we're going to be able to influence them anyhow, but even just getting the point across slightly, and him taking the time to reply, I'm already quite happy.

 

[Kent]

Fine, I'll bite.

Does the pro/rel dream mean CPL at some point dividing it's teams into two leagues? Or are people dreaming about L1O, PLSQ, etc. promoting up into it?

For people thinking of a future CPL split, at how many teams would you want that? For example, would you rather two 8-team leagues or one 16-team league? Two 9s or one 18? 2 tens or one 20?

I would love if we could have promotion and relegation, but if it comes at the expense of having a top division with 12 or more teams, I think I would have some reservations. It would be pretty awesome if we could have a 20 team table one day (and I honestly think that is overly optimistic, especially since so far we only have 2).

[Oranje]

If the CPL is created with the caveat that once it's on terra firma it'll introduce a pro/rel aspect, I don't see why you couldn't have the bottom team from both the East and West division being replaced by a respective playoff  between the L10, PLSQ, and Atlantic (for East). This would ensure travel costs remain down because you won't have Victoria replacing Halifax in the East Division.

It could be tiered as well in the introduction. Start with bottom East/West having a 2 game playoff with the winner of the respective 'Div II' playoff. Then in 5 or 10 years add an auto-relegation spot and a playoff spot. This would hinge on the competitiveness of Div II though.

Also, since this is going to be a salary cap league, teams will need to get creative and invest in an academy/local talent to field a competitive team while staying under the cap, which can only benefit Canadian soccer as a whole.

This is obviously a pipe-dream, but I feel the league has more to gain if it starts off with the "Promotion/Relegation is possible if..." and never does it, than "Promotion/Relegation is never happening" and teams under invest and put out a garbage product week after week with no repercussions. At least in the first scenario, there is the looming possibility of Pro/Rel being introduced which could be enough incentive to spend.

[ironcub14]

The only detail I think that really matters for CPL as of 2017 is that you avoid setting up CPL with pure single entity or in some other format where you could not practically even consider implementing p/r purely within MLS 20-30 years down the road, which seems to me exactly like what has happened with MLS post-1996.

In fact, I would only consider a CPL1 and a CPL2 when CPL1 has hit 18-20 teams, and that there somehow is further demand within Canada to add more clubs to CPL1, which is probably highly unlikely, even as of 2040. But my main goal for CPL as of 2017 is to leave that vastly optimistic scenario open for consideration 20-30 years from now, because you can still collectively share the risk of CPL together without having to go strictly with single entity.

---

My very broad vision for a CPL1 and a CPL2 for 2040 would be something like a 12-team CPL1 and a 12-team CPL2, which would evolve out of a 20-team CPL1 that somehow still has demand for expansion.

The CPL2 would be composed of mid-population cities and suburbs, from the following,

• about 2-4 teams from CPL1
• about 2-4 teams from L1O/PLSQ/etc, and
• about 4-8 new expansion clubs that would form with the intent to start at CPL2, and go from there.

The purpose of going from a 20-team CPL1 to a 12-team CPL1 and a 12-team CPL2 is because you continue to give room for both CPL1 and CPL2 to grow throughout the years. Who knows what the Canadian soccer landscape will look like in 2060? Do we really want to see CPL become a MLS clone in its league structure? How many people in US and Canada envisioned, in 1995, that MLS would be talking specifically about expanding to 28 teams just 20 years after the league had launched, and that you'd have a guy like Ted leading some venom-filled movement?

If CPL avoids single entity, it can leave the potential for the whole Canadian pyramid to continue to grow for many decades after it has begun. I know the details can be fleshed out way more specifically, but I don't want this post to get long at all.

 

[Complete Homer]

Paul Beirne qualified his statement on "divisions"

Said it can refer to geographical divisions or divisions of quality (a first and second tier) with some sort of interplay between levels/divisions

Let's not blow this up as "Beirne just promised pro/rel", but neat to hear that multiple divisions isn't off the table completely

[ironcub14]

5 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Paul Beirne qualified his statement on "divisions"

Said it can refer to geographical divisions or divisions of quality (a first and second tier) with some sort of interplay between levels/divisions

Let's not blow this up as "Beirne just promised pro/rel", but neat to hear that multiple divisions isn't off the table completely

Definitely, nobody at CPL should promise p/r. But they should at least do what's needed now to keep that option open when the CPL has been an absolute smashing hit over the next two decades lol.

[Cheeta]

Here's hoping this CanPL borrows the best of a single entity structure that it can from MLS while discarding the worst.

That is, trash heap the 17,000 lines of player employment rules, let the franchises sign whoever they can and put 8 players with Canadian passports on your match day 16. 

Let you people pick and choose what you'd keep.

[Rintaran]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Paul Beirne qualified his statement on "divisions"

Said it can refer to geographical divisions or divisions of quality (a first and second tier) with some sort of interplay between levels/divisions

Let's not blow this up as "Beirne just promised pro/rel", but neat to hear that multiple divisions isn't off the table completely

Reading this, I actually kinda envision something like what we're doing in the DRFL right now. Geographical conferences for the first half, with top 2 per geographical conference moving into Division 1, and the remainder dropping into a division 2 for the 2nd half of the year. This provides a great regional derby for the first half of the year, and satisfies the need for a cross-Canada battle for supremacy in the 2nd. It also helps protect the investment of those buying into Canadian Premier League, and every year you have a real opportunity to play in the top Division through the whole year, while simultaneously guaranteeing that you'll see the top teams across Canada in the 2nd half of the season.

[Alex D]

Maybe we could see something similar to the Brazilian league structure. Every team plays in both their state and national leagues simultaneously. 

[ironcub14]

I'm sure most of you guys saw PB's statement on the SPN pod on one of the CPL threads here, on twitter or heard it on the pod. Honestly, what PB said, that would be a truly fantastic long-term goal to strive for.

As for how it would transition from being a 1-division league to a 2-division league, I wrote something longer above, but I think that when there is demand for CPL clubs beyond 20 teams, that's the perfect time to consider a split of 12 and 12 clubs for a CPL1/CPL2.

 

 

[Rheo]

It is a great long term goal.  The problem is a few people on here tend to ignore the long term part lol.  We really need to remember that as of right now we have a league with two teams and no start date.  Can we get that up and running and succeeding before we start planning a million other things on top of it

[Oranje]

Does anybody else thing that the introduction of CPL essentially kills CIS Soccer? Unless someones main priority is school and is playing soccer on the side, I don't see anybody with serious aspirations in the sport wouldn't opt for the CPL route.

[ironcub14]

25 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It is a great long term goal.  The problem is a few people on here tend to ignore the long term part lol.  We really need to remember that as of right now we have a league with two teams and no start date.  Can we get that up and running and succeeding before we start planning a million other things on top of it

Haha, just making sure and hoping that PB and the CPL boys set everything in foundation for the next 20+ years, all while keeping the focus on the next 2 weeks, next 2 months, next 2 years, etc.

[Rheo]

7 minutes ago, Oranje said:

Does anybody else thing that the introduction of CPL essentially kills CIS Soccer? Unless someones main priority is school and is playing soccer on the side, I don't see anybody with serious aspirations in the sport wouldn't opt for the CPL route.

CIS is another level of the pyramid.  NCAA soccer hasn't died with the NWSL and MLS.  Some will go pro, some will want an education (depending on the academy situation).  If anything it gives more players the opportunity to play and get notice so late bloomers or those who get overlooked are fewer and far between.

Please note I'm not well versed in the CIS level, just basing it on the NCAA (which is most likely wrong since they seem very different in level of play)