Canadian USL Expansion Discussion 2016-

[Dub Narcotic]

Let's get a thread going that focuses on USL expansion in Canada post-2016 and the CPL thread can focus on CPL news and discussion.

Current state of play:

CSA has banned independent clubs from joining USL and USL-PDL. However, this does not apply to fully affiliated clubs (e.g. TFC2) and its unclear whether or not it applies to already existing clubs in different professional leagues (e.g. Ottawa Fury) switching leagues. Also, if the USL gets D2 certification from the USSF (which they have applied for) this may exempt them from the CSA ban, which was enacted to establish L10/PLSQ/etc.. as Canadian Division 3 leagues as opposed to the PDL and USL. The USL affiliate clubs are not allowed to compete in the Voyageurs Cup.

The USSF has restrictions around the number of non-American clubs that can exist in the league, with 75% of clubs required to be American. With 29 current clubs, 3 of them Canadian, 5 Canadian clubs could be added next year without violating sanctioning, notwithstanding contraction and expansion of the league's American teams.

The USSF has no national player quotas for USL teams. The CSA requires 6 out of 11 starters on Canadian clubs to be Canadian as well as the same ratio of minutes played. This ratio can be averaged out over the entire year.

Canadian cities that have been rumoured to have interest in USL expansion or league moving: Ottawa, Victoria, Calgary and London.

[ted]

We still have no idea if the ban or moratorium is still in place. No one has tried to get an independent  USL team for a couple of years.

 

[-Hammer-]

On 9/7/2016 at 4:26 PM, Dub Narcotic said:

CSA has banned independent clubs from joining USL and USL-PDL. However, this does not apply to fully affiliated clubs (e.g. TFC2) and its unclear whether or not it applies to already existing clubs in different professional leagues (e.g. Ottawa Fury) switching leagues. Also, if the USL gets D2 certification from the USSF (which they have applied for) this may exempt them from the CSA ban, which was enacted to establish L10/PLSQ/etc.. as Canadian Division 3 leagues as opposed to the PDL and USL. The USL affiliate clubs are not allowed to compete in the Voyageurs Cup.

They aren't fully affiliated with an existing MLS franchise, so no, the Fury would not be exempt. Fury 2 may be exempt, but it's doubtful that move happens. As far as D2 certification, meaningless if the ban explicitly targets the USL.

On 9/7/2016 at 4:26 PM, Dub Narcotic said:

The USSF has restrictions around the number of non-American clubs that can exist in the league, with 75% of clubs required to be American. With 29 current clubs, 3 of them Canadian, 5 Canadian clubs could be added next year without violating sanctioning, notwithstanding contraction and expansion of the league's American teams.

True, barring the USL expanding in the US of the USSF changing the rules, which they can do at their discretion, as well as enforce domestic requirements at any time.

On 9/7/2016 at 4:26 PM, Dub Narcotic said:

The USSF has no national player quotas for USL teams. The CSA requires 6 out of 11 starters on Canadian clubs to be Canadian as well as the same ratio of minutes played. This ratio can be averaged out over the entire year.

Canadian cities that have been rumoured to have interest in USL expansion or league moving: Ottawa, Victoria, Calgary and London.

The USSF has no domestic quotes for USL teams for now, if it does acquire division 2 sanctioning MUST have a domestic quota which the USSF shall define according to this document.

http://www.insidemnsoccer.com/2010/08/12/ussf-d-2-professional-league-standards/
 

They also can at any point opt to create domestic requirements, although currently don't because they want to keep a healthy relationship with MLS who treats the league (rightly) as a farm league to lock up player rights, with low levels of both pay and play.

As far as the CSA standards, they are not enforceable. The CSA has no authority over the USL as it is not sanctioned by the CSA. The only means of enforcement they have to denying entry to the Voyaguers cup to affiliated (MLS) teams who fail to meet it, deny access to CSA resources like that have the CSL (which is still running unsanctioned) or request the USSF to enforce their rules, of which the USSF is under no obligation to do so.

That is pretty much what it comes down to, do we let the USSF sanction and run our clubs, knowing that their priority is to develop for the US National Team and not the Canadian national team and hope for the best? So yeah, plenty of cons in this system, most flagrant of them housing the MLS farms teams which makes the league seem like a farm league and greater harms the league's ability to market, acquire television deals and be taken seriously. After all, what kind of TV revenue can you ask from a league that has clubs that draw in the hundreds and more then half drawing less then 3,000.

[Dub Narcotic]

I was hoping to keep the editorializing out of this thread. I appreciate the factual contributions.

[CDNFootballer]

There won't be any USL expansion into Canada, CPL targetting 2018 launch and moratorium on stand alone USL clubs in play to reserve markets for that.

[Complete Homer]

23 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

There won't be any USL expansion into Canada, CPL targetting 2018 launch and moratorium on stand alone USL clubs in play to reserve markets for that.

Hey now, we can't rule out CPL getting their own USL development squads?

[Blackdude]

7 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

As far as the CSA standards, they are not enforceable. The CSA has no authority over the USL as it is not sanctioned by the CSA. The only means of enforcement they have to denying entry to the Voyaguers cup to affiliated (MLS) teams who fail to meet it, deny access to CSA resources like that have the CSL (which is still running unsanctioned) or request the USSF to enforce their rules, of which the USSF is under no obligation to do so.

Still, a team playing in an American league would need to be sanctioned by the CSA. So, if the CSA isn't happy with the quota of a certain USL team, they could just tell the team well if you don't do that, you won't be sanctioned next year.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Hey now, we can't rule out CPL getting their own USL development squads?

Lol I like the cut of your jib sir

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Still, a team playing in an American league would need to be sanctioned by the CSA. So, if the CSA isn't happy with the quota of a certain USL team, they could just tell the team well if you don't do that, you won't be sanctioned next year.

They already have strict CanCon requirements in place for the three USL reserve teams and could easily apply those to Ottawa and others as well.

[Dub Narcotic]

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/10/09/ottawa-fury-fcs-time-in-nasl-appears-to-be-coming-to-an-end

The Sun reporting that the Fury will announce a move to USL before the end of the month.

[rob.notenboom]

37 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/10/09/ottawa-fury-fcs-time-in-nasl-appears-to-be-coming-to-an-end

The Sun reporting that the Fury will announce a move to USL before the end of the month.

Very curious to see how this all shakes out. As of September 28th the only substantiated information on the potential move was that the Fury had not formally applied to the CSA to move to USL. But considering that John Pugh is on the CSA BOD, it would be very surprising if they had not been many informal discussions between the Fury and CSA about this.

[Complete Homer]

Top USL guys apparently get around 2000-3000 per month while in season, and nothing in the offseason. Can't see Dixon/Tissot/Haworth/Edwards sticking around for that unless they are really desperate 

[Complete Homer]

"Most of the guys are under option so it’s not a case of negotiating a new contract, it’s a case of deciding if we’ll take the option and informing the player we’re going to take the option" 

 

Though perhaps they'll keep a few at their present salary and be a high-end team? 

[shermanator]

28 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Top USL guys apparently get around 2000-3000 per month while in season, and nothing in the offseason. Can't see Dixon/Tissot/Haworth/Edwards sticking around for that unless they are really desperate 

I can't see either of Dixon or Tissot staying. I could potentially see Edward staying given his family situation, and Haworth staying given that he has never been more than an average NASL player outside of a hot streak this year.

Also, it's Eddie EDWARD, not Edwards. Don't mean to single you out, but it seems that no one on this site knows how to spell his last name properly.

[shermanator]

On 09/09/2016 at 2:28 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

They already have strict CanCon requirements in place for the three USL reserve teams and could easily apply those to Ottawa and others as well.

Does anyone know what the actual domestic quotas for the existing USL clubs are?

The only thing I've read is Duane Rollins stating that the reserve teams must have 50% Canadians on their roster, and start 6 Canadians per game, but I don't think this is the case given that WFC 2 have already broken that requirement 7-8 times in their 2 years.

I've also read an average of 6 Canadians starting per game over the course of the year which is a quota that has been met by all clubs, so maybe that is it.

[TRM]

7 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/10/09/ottawa-fury-fcs-time-in-nasl-appears-to-be-coming-to-an-end

The Sun reporting that the Fury will announce a move to USL before the end of the month.

If they do retain the majority of their roster that would put them into the upper echelon of teams. A winning season will generate local excitement. Most of the fans know that it isn't MLS but probably don't care if it is NASL or USL. Plus the marketing of games against the MLS2 sides (not just TFC2 & FC Montreal) will at least bring name recognition.

I think this will work out for Ottawa as costs will be lower for travel while they wait to see if anything happens in the DRFL (Duane Rollins Fantasy League aka CPL). If it does great they move but if it doesn't then they are still playing in a league.

At least there will be a place for players to play next year.

[Gopherbashi]

Yeah, part of me wonders if OFFC intends to use a banner USL year to hype themselves up for the next season.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Don't think it's sensible to go to the trouble of changing leagues for just one season, if you seriously expect to be moving to yet another one in 2018. The more likely explanation is that Ottawa don't think a standalone CPL is happening and see USL as the final destination with a Canadian division involving the three MLS reserve teams being a possibility further down the road. What's more interesting in all of this is the CSA sanctioning entry into a D3 level USSF league after reportedly blocking previous attempts at USL entry by non-MLS Canadian ownership groups in recent years, although it remains to be seen if they actually sign off on this.

[ironcub14]

All I can say is, I can't wait to see how all this shakes out over the next 5 years.

[CDNFootballer]

On 10/10/2016 at 5:41 PM, TRM said:

If they do retain the majority of their roster that would put them into the upper echelon of teams. A winning season will generate local excitement. Most of the fans know that it isn't MLS but probably don't care if it is NASL or USL. Plus the marketing of games against the MLS2 sides (not just TFC2 & FC Montreal) will at least bring name recognition.

I think this will work out for Ottawa as costs will be lower for travel while they wait to see if anything happens in the DRFL (Duane Rollins Fantasy League aka CPL). If it does great they move but if it doesn't then they are still playing in a league.

At least there will be a place for players to play next year.

The purpose of a move to the lower third div USL if the rumors turn out to be true would be to cut costs so they won't likely keep a majority of the roster but will pay Usl level salaries and revamp. They would stay in NASL if they were going to retain most of the roster at NASL level salaries.

Heard many people upset at a possible move to Mls's minor league Usl so although some won't care a substantial amount will, attendance will drop.

 

Going from playing independent pro clubs in NASL to playing farm teams of MLS will hinder not help bringing in fans as will moving to USL thats locked in to being MLS's minor league with many farm teams and affiliates composing it.

On 9/7/2016 at 1:26 PM, Dub Narcotic said:

Also, if the USL gets D2 certification from the USSF (which they have applied for)

The USSF met on Sept 23rd to review the applications of USL for D2 and NASL for D1 and both were not passed.

The status qou is likely to remain with NASL D2 and USL D3.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Do you have a url for that? Tried to find info about that elsewhere and couldn't find it anywhere.

[ironcub14]

I'll take some articles on that as well. I dont trudge through BigSoccer like I used to, but I think I would have seen news about the results of that USSF meeting on my twitter feed at least. Cheers.

[ironcub14]

This is the only thing I found from a quick glance through the NASL and USL reddits. At the time, I thought it meant that they were simply going to take a week or two to decide, but I guess the decision was made right there and then at the USSF meeting.

 

[Dub Narcotic]

On 10/13/2016 at 5:30 PM, CDNFootballer said:

The purpose of a move to the lower third div USL if the rumors turn out to be true would be to cut costs so they won't likely keep a majority of the roster but will pay Usl level salaries and revamp. They would stay in NASL if they were going to retain most of the roster at NASL level salaries.

Heard many people upset at a possible move to Mls's minor league Usl so although some won't care a substantial amount will, attendance will drop.

 

Going from playing independent pro clubs in NASL to playing farm teams of MLS will hinder not help bringing in fans as will moving to USL thats locked in to being MLS's minor league with many farm teams and affiliates composing it.

 

You keep on saying this but everyone looking at the issue has shown no attendance drop in home numbers whether independent teams (of which USL has many) or full affiliates are the opposition. In fact, I will offer you a bet that we will see no substantial difference in attendance to the downside next year if Ottawa is in USL, defined as their current numbers minus a margin of error (say, a thousand people). I would also wager that the games vs. Toronto and Montreal will see some the highest home numbers yet.

[Gopherbashi]

A 1000-person margin of error would be about 20%.  Pretty sizable.