Canadian Premier League

[Zem]

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

Just as Kurtis Larson acts as the spokesperson for TFC, Fury Fanatic is basically at this point acting as a spokesperson for Fury FC, alongside AJ Jakubec.

Duane Rollins had told me and several others on twitter, a few weeks ago, and the above tweets from Fury Fanatic seem to go along with this, that there may very well be a competing CPL bid coming from Ottawa, if OSEG does not go along with CPL.

I've argued in the main CPL thread for the USL Canada option in the past, but I'm not happy to hear that, if a CPL were to really go forward, that OSEG is not willing to be a part of this from the get go, from two different perspectives.

It obviously sucks to hear OSEG thinks USL would be a better way to go than CPL.

But it also sucks to hear that the CPL group, whether it be Young, McGrane or Vic, that they cannot convince OSEG to follow along with them.

Overall, I'm very much holding out to see just how many concrete ownership groups actually come to fruition in a CPL over the next 2-3 years. Or if they wanna give us all some big fancy Christmas gifts, the next 2-3 months.

I as a Fury fan I have rapidly lost faith in OSEG to push the club in an ambitious and forward-looking direction. It seems they're intent on finding a way to make the club profitable in as little time as possible and by any means, and not invest in the long term despite the organisation's comparatively massive wealth, both in available capital and revenue. I think John Pugh is a great president and owner, but I get the impression that the rest of the board aren't nearly as interested in the club's long-term future and have started to grow impatient with the lack of return on investment.

[Kent]

23 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I really doubt CPL would be asking in the same order or magnitude for broadcast rights as MLS, but how much worse would viewership being? Unless it is 10X worse, paying CPL a small fraction is a better deal, and it is something they can mold freely into a product they largely control.

To this point, I read in the most recent issue of Plastic Pitch that halfway through the current MLS season (July something) the average viewership for a game on Sportsnet was something like 30k. If TSN's numbers are similar, I imagine there isn't much practical difference for them between 30k and 3k. So even if it's 10x worse ratings, it's possible MLS ratings rounds to 0 anyways.

For people looking for a silver lining, it could be that this news (and the knowledge of it coming) was what helped Jason DeVos take the job with the CSA a while back.

[Ansem]

It's logical

MLS was always going to ask for more than the previous contract. With viewership being low, it's understandable why it wasn't worth it. Paying that much money for so little content to show, (only 3 teams to cover)

TSN pursuing CPL at a cheaper price, with more Canadian content, more teams and matches to cover with the possibility for having the the same viewership or more is a no-brainer.

They got out of the MLS contract while they still could.

[Complete Homer]

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

MLS was always going to ask for more than the previous contract.

The way I perceive this change is heavily dependent on the truth of this statement. I see two scenarios:

1. Like you said, MLS wanted to continue the contract or get a raise, TSN balked while having CPL in its future and is content to gun for 50k CPL viewers at a cheap price vs 100k MLS viewers at a price likely an order of magnitude higher. With established CFL links giving a degree of trust between the CPL groups and TSN, I can see this as realistic.

2. Garber et al. have repeatedly complained publicly about lack of penetration of MLS in the Canadian market. He isn't dumb, he can see that TFC/IMFC/VWC have core support at the gate but have not extended beyond very limited pockets of the TV market. In a bid to change that, they pitch Soccer Night in Canada to CBC at a cheap price in an effort to drive media penetration long term.

To me, both situations seem realistic. It is easy to paint MLS as money-grubbing, but they were smart enough to pay to get MLS on TV in the early days, they have the sense to be pragmatic for growth. The scenarios aren't really mutually exclusive either, but I suspect one of the two served as the driving force for Soccer Night in Canada to come about

[Ansem]

A new Ottawa CPL team with a stadium at LeBreton Flats owned by Melnyk (billion + net worth) and the Ottawa Senators would be already a better choice for CPL

LeBreton Flats redevelopment Downtown Ottawa (LRT station included)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

54 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Serious question: if TSN was not happy with their MLS viewership figures and dropped it for CBC to pick up, should we be expecting them to 1.5-2.5 years from now, in Spring 2018 or Spring 2019, double down on soccer by picking up a number of CPL games instead?

 

Clearly we shouldn't but that won't stop some people. The revenues of sports broadcasters are in serious decline at the moment because of so called cord cutting and the steep decline in TV viewership by people under 50. It's even having an effect on NFL ratings in the US at the moment:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/nfl-ratings-just-fell-off-a-cliff-why/503666/

My guess would be that TSN are already locked into contracts and commitments with other sports properties that are not providing the revenues that they originally expected and that means they are not in a position financially to give MLS significant rights money at the moment along with the marketing push it needs for the audience to grow. As for CPL I suspect if any such league starts up in 2018 or 2019 they would actually have to pay for broadcast time until there was evidence that it could generate sufficient ad revenue to cover costs.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

The way I perceive this change is heavily dependent on the truth of this statement. I see two scenarios:

1. Like you said, MLS wanted to continue the contract or get a raise, TSN balked while having CPL in its future and is content to gun for 50k CPL viewers at a cheap price vs 100k MLS viewers at a price likely an order of magnitude higher. With established CFL links giving a degree of trust between the CPL groups and TSN, I can see this as realistic.

2. Garber et al. have repeatedly complained publicly about lack of penetration of MLS in the Canadian market. He isn't dumb, he can see that TFC/IMFC/VWC have core support at the gate but have not extended beyond very limited pockets of the TV market. In a bid to change that, they pitch Soccer Night in Canada to CBC at a cheap price in an effort to drive media penetration long term.

To me, both situations seem realistic. It is easy to paint MLS as money-grubbing, but they were smart enough to pay to get MLS on TV in the early days, they have the sense to be pragmatic for growth. The scenarios aren't really mutually exclusive either, but I suspect one of the two served as the driving force for Soccer Night in Canada to come about

I'd go with number 1 over option 2.

I don't see how CBC can do better with only 3 teams to cover. MLS have only themselves to blame. Low number of Canadians playing in the league and no more Canadian expansion.

MLS are trying to get Canada to rally behind one of the 3 teams, without the NHL century old tradition, Blue Jays history and Raptors proven recent track record (playoffs only).

MLS aka Americans...just assumed that us Canadians would just be happy to support one of the big 3 and they'd bag millions of viewers...hence not bothering to expand here...big mistake...CBC won't save them and CPL might draw more here than they ever will. At least people from let's say Winnipeg or Halifax have more reasons to identify to their CPL team with Canadians on the field than a Toronto or far away Vancouver team.

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'd go with number 1 over option 2.

I don't see how CBC can do better with only 3 teams to cover. MLS have only themselves to blame. Low number of Canadians playing in the league and no more Canadian expansion.

MLS are trying to get Canada to rally behind one of the 3 teams, without the NHL century old tradition, Blue Jays history and Raptors proven recent track record (playoffs only).

MLS aka Americans...just assumed that us Canadians would just be happy to support one of the big 3 and they'd bag millions of viewers...hence not bothering to expand here...big mistake...CBC won't save them and CPL might draw more here than they ever will. At least people from let's say Winnipeg or Halifax have more reasons to identify to their CPL team with Canadians on the field than a Toronto or far away Vancouver team.

They can do better because even cord-cutters use CBC. Hell, I don't pay for cable but watch CBC news. CBC had nearly double TSN's numbers a decade ago when MLS was less of a draw (albeit new and shiny). I can see MLS sacrificing money for viewers.

There *is* a strong subset of Canadian sports fans that are interested in Canada-centric products (ex. CFL), but it isn't the whole market. Besides, TFC/IMFC/VWC don't have to do much to slap the "Canada's teams" marketing all over themselves despite few Canadian players, just like the Jays have done successfully

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

5 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

I doubt CBC is paying much, unless they have word of increased funding under the new government. Especially after claiming to be out of the sports broadcasting business. If anything I bet it will be a split deal, maybe a game of the week type thing on CBC with the rest Stoll on TSN

I think that's actually a reasonable assumption.  As far as I was aware(by no means an expert), funding was cut year after year under the Harper government, and, at least traditionally, liberal governments have provided funding for the CBC.  Perhaps since they are on the outside looking in for hockey at this point, they have decided homegrown soccer will do for the time being with their new-found funding?

Possibly a little pie-in-the-sky, but it does kind of make sense. 

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I think that's actually a reasonable assumption.  As far as I was aware(by no means an expert), funding was cut year after year under the Harper government, and, at least traditionally, liberal governments have provided funding for the CBC.  Perhaps since they are on the outside looking in for hockey at this point, they have decided homegrown soccer will do for the time being with their new-found funding?

Possibly a little pie-in-the-sky, but it does kind of make sense. 

Even then, I don't see funding in place to outbid TSN if it was interested. I think the move had to be initiated by MLS approaching CBC directly, either because TSN put them out on the street or because they are going for the larger potential audience. I don't think this would be an instance of CBC going out on a limb and attempting to nab something from TSN that TSN was actually interested in

[ted]

1 hour ago, C2SKI said:

It's baffling to me that there isn't constant fan consultation during this process. Quite disheartening actually.

Maybe I'm just used to it by now but I would use words like, "par for the course", "totally normal" and, "what else would you expect" rather than, "baffling".

I would like to think we could offer some useful feedback and ideas, but to an outsider this forum in particular and fan groups in general,  looks decidedly unable to come to a consensus on how to start or manage the operations of a new league. Of course, they could be doing lots of consulting with fans who could be under non-disclosure agreements.

[Pqhbv]

Or just: "That's the way she goes..."

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

28 minutes ago, ted said:

Maybe I'm just used to it by now but I would use words like, "par for the course", "totally normal" and, "what else would you expect" rather than, "baffling".

I would like to think we could offer some useful feedback and ideas, but to an outsider this forum in particular and fan groups in general,  looks decidedly unable to come to a consensus on how to start or manage the operations of a new league. Of course, they could be doing lots of consulting with fans who could be under non-disclosure agreements.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that they've been in contact with people who have a general idea of our wants/needs though.  I don't know.  Just because no one has been directly contacted doesn't mean it's completely useless to try and see what consensus we do arrive at.

Sure, at the end of the day, we won't have much of an impact on the business side of it, but I like to think smart business people care what their most dedicated customers will think.  Call me crazy.

[C2SKI]

37 minutes ago, ted said:

Maybe I'm just used to it by now but I would use words like, "par for the course", "totally normal" and, "what else would you expect" rather than, "baffling".

I would like to think we could offer some useful feedback and ideas, but to an outsider this forum in particular and fan groups in general,  looks decidedly unable to come to a consensus on how to start or manage the operations of a new league. Of course, they could be doing lots of consulting with fans who could be under non-disclosure agreements.

It has nothing to do with us having useful ideas, or the ability to manage the operations of a league. It's the complete disconnect between 'club' management and  supporters that bothers me. Well run businesses understand what their consumers are likely to purchase. Clubs generally have shared interests among members. How can they expect support if the most committed people don't know what league their team will compete in next year, or if they are committed to an American system, or a Canadian system.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

51 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Even then, I don't see funding in place to outbid TSN if it was interested. I think the move had to be initiated by MLS approaching CBC directly, either because TSN put them out on the street or because they are going for the larger potential audience. I don't think this would be an instance of CBC going out on a limb and attempting to nab something from TSN that TSN was actually interested in

true true, yea not even saying they've outbid anyone, just that they might be more willing to pay for sports content now as opposed to 2 years ago.

[Dub Narcotic]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Clearly we shouldn't but that won't stop some people. The revenues of sports broadcasters are in serious decline at the moment because of so called cord cutting and the steep decline in TV viewership by people under 50. It's even having an effect on NFL ratings in the US at the moment:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/nfl-ratings-just-fell-off-a-cliff-why/503666/

My guess would be that TSN are already locked into contracts and commitments with other sports properties that are not providing the revenues that they originally expected and that means they are not in a position financially to give MLS significant rights money at the moment along with the marketing push it needs for the audience to grow. As for CPL I suspect if any such league starts up in 2018 or 2019 they would actually have to pay for broadcast time until there was evidence that it could generate sufficient ad revenue to cover costs.

You and I and some others have been talking about this reality since this discussion first started. What's the best case scenario for a Canadian owner in a Canadian league? There's no realistic operational profit of any note, no capital appreciation potential, no American national team SUM television money to subsidise operational losses and the television money gravy train in general is in the middle of a music-industry style collapse. The USL has a laser focus on minimising costs, which is the alpha and omega of professional soccer in North America, especially at the lower levels, which is why it is succeeding (for some value of success).

With Montagliani on the way out and an apparent agreement on domestic quotas in MLS forthcoming I wouldn't be surprised if CPL talk starts to die down now and we see the reality that multiple Canadian teams in USL and NASL (with the possibility of a separate national division) is what is happening for the short-to-medium term. 

[Dub Narcotic]

BTW, I would love if SNIC has a combined highlight show from all league levels in Canada.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

You and I and some others have been talking about this reality since this discussion first started. What's the best case scenario for a Canadian owner in a Canadian league? There's no realistic operational profit of any note, no capital appreciation potential, no American national team SUM television money to subsidise operational losses and the television money gravy train in general is in the middle of a music-industry style collapse. The USL has a laser focus on minimising costs, which is the alpha and omega of professional soccer in North America, especially at the lower levels, which is why it is succeeding (for some value of success).

With Montagliani on the way out and an apparent agreement on domestic quotas in MLS forthcoming I wouldn't be surprised if CPL talk starts to die down now and we see the reality that multiple Canadian teams in USL and NASL (with the possibility of a separate national division) is what is happening for the short-to-medium term. 

Turning a profit on your original investment and helping Canadian soccer for those who are more philanthropic than others...that would be the goal

In the first year? probably not, but as a long term goal? Just like MLS owners, yes.

Why are we so quick to forget that MLS started small, then went through growing pains and that now, some of those owners today are laughing their way to the bank with the insane increase in value of their franchise compare to their initial investment.

Is the league fantasy or is it that the problem is that anything less than NASL in our minds is a failure? I've long ago accepted that CPL would be around NASL level in attendance and viewership and it was up to the league to build that up.

CPL being selective on their owners makes sense. There's a different between "millionaires who goes to USL due to losses" and a billionaire like Melnyk and his assets being in the billions having the ability to absorb a 1-2 million dollars loss for a few years. Perhaps Ottawa Fury ownership were told their pockets weren't deep enough which would make sense as they are going to USL unable to absorb further losses of revenues. Owners throwing the towel within the first 5 years will sink the league. You can't have that at all.

CPL main motivation was to improve the Canadian program. it's been demonstrated so many time that teams within the USSF pyramid isn't the solution. How sure are you that fixing the issue of Canadians becoming domestic will automatically prevent American teams from being biais towards American players regardless at equal or similar skill level? Let alone multiplying Canadian teams in NASL and USL?

Call me naive about the CPL all you want but I will equally call you naive on how much faith some have on the USSF helping our program out of the goodness for their hearts.

OR we can just accept that we will remain mediocre during our lifetime and end this pointless debate.

[mianjo]

 

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

A new Ottawa CPL team with a stadium at LeBreton Flats owned by Melnyk (billion + net worth) and the Ottawa Senators would be already a better choice for CPL

LeBreton Flats redevelopment Downtown Ottawa (LRT station included)

Ansem

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Posted 3 hours ago · Report post

A new Ottawa CPL team with a stadium at LeBreton Flats owned by Melnyk (billion + net worth) and the Ottawa Senators would be already a better choice for CPL

LeBreton Flats redevelopment Downtown Ottawa (LRT station included)

 

I was going to come on and say maybe it was not the Fury who would join the CPL but it would be Melnyk, he did want to build a soccer complex out at the Canadian Tire site back in 2008 but a location at Le Breton would be a great site, But someone beat me to it.

[Complete Homer]

You know what surprises me about this discussion? 

When Duane Rollins states that Soccer Night in Canada has nothing to do with CPL based on conversations with connections at TSN and CBC, no one questions his credibility. 

When Duane Rollins states that TSN had been in talks with CPL groups about a fully independent league,  Toronto/Calgary/etc ownership groups, etc, he is dismissed we a crazed lunatic/liar/wannabe journalist

I get it, we all have personal biases and epistemological blocks that make it very difficult to see others' views as rational, but this is a blatant inconsistency. 

 

[rob.notenboom]

You know, I think it would be an instructive exercise to start a thread called 'CanPL Facts' where we would collect only those things that people know are actually happening or, conversely, only the things people know for sure are not happening in regards to CanPL (confirmed information mind you). It would cut through a lot of the chatter, supposition, inflation, denial, pontification, and pet theory promotion. Many would have nothing to say. 

[Complete Homer]

4 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

You know, I think it would be an instructive exercise to start a thread called 'CanPL Facts' where we would collect only those things that people know are actually happening or, conversely, only the things people know for sure are not happening in regards to CanPL (confirmed information mind you). It would cut through a lot of the chatter, supposition, inflation, denial, pontification, and pet theory promotion. Many would have nothing to say. 

You'd need a pro and an anti evidence thread. Otherwise it would get bogged down by debate over the credibility of individuals

[gwsmith63]

Just a thought, but maybe TSN is finally feeling the financial impact of losing the NHL deal to Sportsnet?

 

 

[Dub Narcotic]

56 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

You know what surprises me about this discussion? 

When Duane Rollins states that Soccer Night in Canada has nothing to do with CPL based on conversations with connections at TSN and CBC, no one questions his credibility. 

When Duane Rollins states that TSN had been in talks with CPL groups about a fully independent league,  Toronto/Calgary/etc ownership groups, etc, he is dismissed we a crazed lunatic/liar/wannabe journalist

I get it, we all have personal biases and epistemological blocks that make it very difficult to see others' views as rational, but this is a blatant inconsistency. 

 

I agree. The biggest piece of real evidence we have is what Ottawa Fury is doing. If they are going to USL then it doesn't appear the CPL is very close to reality. If they abstain from the USL and announce they are waiting for the CPL in 2018 then we pop the champagne corks. From all indications they will be in USL next year.

[Ansem]

Just now, Dub Narcotic said:

I agree. The biggest piece of real evidence we have is what Ottawa Fury is doing. If they are going to USL then it doesn't appear the CPL is very close to reality. If they abstain from the USL and announce they are waiting for the CPL in 2018 then we pop the champagne corks. From all indications they will be in USL next year.

Again, perhaps CPL don't want the Fury owners in their league