Is The World Cup Only A Dream?

[sting]

I did a little research and I'm starting to wonder if it's realistic for us to expect Canada to qualify for the World Cup. We have never won a qualifying match in Mexico, USA or Costa Rica and I believe only 1 in Honduras. Very little success in El Salvador, Panama and Guatemala. When we qualified back in 1986 we never had to face Mexico or the U.S. in any stage. In order to qualify now you have to go into those countries and get wins, something we can't seem to do. We do beat these teams in Gold Cup at times but we never go into Central America to play. Mostly in the U.S. not under the same pressure.

The reason I bring this up is maybe we shouldn't let go of many vets and instead focus on trying to win the Gold Cup like we did before. Maybe the World Cup is not something realistic after all. I know we could have advanced to the Hex with out getting points in Panama or Honduras but next round we would have had to pick up points in tough countries to advance. Believe me I want to go to the World Cup but it's been a real long time since we were close to making a run at it. Last time we were close was 94 and we did not have to face the USA who was host. Is the bar set to high?

[Keegan]

Bull****.

If T&T, Jamaica, Honduras and Costa Rica can do it why not us? We just need a real manager for next cycle and hopefully the yoots will start coming through the pipe (as they already are). The game is played with eleven a side and a ball on the pitch, we aren't vastly inferior to ANYONE in this region.

[sting]

So you only believe the reason don't qualify is because of the Coach? I believe it's deeper. Coaching is a problem as well. We looked vastly inferior to Honduras. We never played teams like US, Mexico or Costa Rica this time around.

[sting]

Bull****.

If T&T, Jamaica, Honduras and Costa Rica can do it why not us? We just need a real manager for next cycle and hopefully the yoots will start coming through the pipe (as they already are). The game is played with eleven a side and a ball on the pitch, we aren't vastly inferior to ANYONE in this region.

When TNT got through in 2006 they finished second to Mexico and only had to beat St. Kitts and St. Vincent to get to the Hex where they finished fourth and just had to beat only Guatemala and Panama for the last spot. Not exactly a tough route.

[Keegan]

So you only believe the reason don't qualify is because of the Coach? I believe it's deeper. Coaching is a problem as well. We looked vastly inferior to Honduras. We never played teams like US, Mexico or Costa Rica this time around.

So if it's deeper where is it? Eleven PROFESSIONAL players on par with most teams in the region minus the United States and Mexico entered the pitch on Tuesday.

What do you think the problem is? Something in the water in Canada? Have a look at Honduras roster... not overly impressive.

[nolbertos]

So if it's deeper where is it? Eleven PROFESSIONAL players on par with most teams in the region minus the United States and Mexico entered the pitch on Tuesday.

What do you think the problem is? Something in the water in Canada? Have a look at Honduras roster... not overly impressive.

I think you guys are deluding yourselves that we're on par with everyone minus USA and Mexico. If that were the case, the results of the last 15 years, would say, we made the Hex consistently with the USA and Mexico and qualified to at least One World Cup. The fact that we haven't made the Hex longer and are fighting it out with the likes of Guatemala, Panama, Cuba and El Salvador, to me signifies, we're in the 2nd or 3rd tier of CONCACAF Powerhouses. The 1st tier, only applies to the US, Mexico and to a small extant Costa Rica. All these countries have made the World Cup consistently over the last 20 years and won at least a Gold Cup (with the exception of Costa Rica). The Second Tier are the countries that have consistently battled in the Hex and sometimes qualify, like Honduras, Jamaica, T & T and sometimes El Salvador, but now, I'd put Panama in 2nd tier, since they're showing way more progress than us this recent WCQ. 3rd tier is where we are, because we can't even make the Hex over the past 15 years, don't have a domestic national league (D1 or D2) and our FA is one of the weakest in the region. Canada has a small voice in CONCACAF, probably equivalent to a St. Kitts.

If the Honduras roster wasn't overly impressive, than how the heck did this "unimpressive" side, light up Canada like a Xmas tree with buckets of goals? We have to rethink our entire system, from Grassroots, CSA, Provincial Associations, Training programs, etc. Having a new coach and expecting him to perform miracles won't be the answer and worse, if the coach is European and doesn't have a clue about training in hot humid climates, with bumpy and no grass stadiums and having to adapt.

[Macksam]

I did a little research and I'm starting to wonder if it's realistic for us to expect Canada to qualify for the World Cup. We have never won a qualifying match in Mexico, USA or Costa Rica and I believe only 1 in Honduras. Very little success in El Salvador, Panama and Guatemala. When we qualified back in 1986 we never had to face Mexico or the U.S. in any stage. In order to qualify now you have to go into those countries and get wins, something we can't seem to do. We do beat these teams in Gold Cup at times but we never go into Central America to play. Mostly in the U.S. not under the same pressure.

The reason I bring this up is maybe we shouldn't let go of many vets and instead focus on trying to win the Gold Cup like we did before. Maybe the World Cup is not something realistic after all. I know we could have advanced to the Hex with out getting points in Panama or Honduras but next round we would have had to pick up points in tough countries to advance. Believe me I want to go to the World Cup but it's been a real long time since we were close to making a run at it. Last time we were close was 94 and we did not have to face the USA who was host. Is the bar set to high?

How long should we "concentrate" on winning the Gold Cup? Just until the 2018 World Cup cycle is over?

[Keegan]

I think you guys are deluding yourselves that we're on par with everyone minus USA and Mexico. If that were the case, the results of the last 15 years, would say, we made the Hex consistently with the USA and Mexico and qualified to at least One World Cup. The fact that we haven't made the Hex longer and are fighting it out with the likes of Guatemala, Panama, Cuba and El Salvador, to me signifies, we're in the 2nd or 3rd tier of CONCACAF Powerhouses. The 1st tier, only applies to the US, Mexico and to a small extant Costa Rica. All these countries have made the World Cup consistently over the last 20 years and won at least a Gold Cup (with the exception of Costa Rica). The Second Tier are the countries that have consistently battled in the Hex and sometimes qualify, like Honduras, Jamaica, T & T and sometimes El Salvador, but now, I'd put Panama in 2nd tier, since they're showing way more progress than us this recent WCQ. 3rd tier is where we are, because we can't even make the Hex over the past 15 years, don't have a domestic national league (D1 or D2) and our FA is one of the weakest in the region. Canada has a small voice in CONCACAF, probably equivalent to a St. Kitts.

If the Honduras roster wasn't overly impressive, than how the heck did this "unimpressive" side, light up Canada like a Xmas tree with buckets of goals? We have to rethink our entire system, from Grassroots, CSA, Provincial Associations, Training programs, etc. Having a new coach and expecting him to perform miracles won't be the answer and worse, if the coach is European and doesn't have a clue about training in hot humid climates, with bumpy and no grass stadiums and having to adapt.

The point I'm making is purely based on talent alone. I'm sick of hearing this "we're not good enough" bull****.

We have players in some of the top leagues in the world and players who play ALONGSIDE players on Hondurans. To put this in perspective, Honduras was missing their best midfielder... he plays in MLS, the same league where De Rosario was MVP, De Guzman is a DP and Will Johnson is an MLS Cup winner and former All Star. COME ON NOW. The problem lies deeper but we didn't lose 8-1 because of it.

Could Bengtson or Costly be the starting striker for Frankfurt? NO. Is Mario Martinez better than Hutchinson? HELL NO.

[El Hombre]

So you only believe the reason don't qualify is because of the Coach? I believe it's deeper. Coaching is a problem as well. We looked vastly inferior to Honduras. We never played teams like US, Mexico or Costa Rica this time around.

We looked vastly inferior to them in one game where all 11 players on the field played well below their standards (to extrapolate and draw conclusions from one game is a ridiculous idea). We also looked superior to them in the game in Toronto.

Getting to the World Cup is not easy and everything needs to line up just right for Canada to do it (ie. favourable draw, good coach, few injuries, players playing well at the right time), but it's not unrealistic.

[Obinna]

CONCACAF tier 1

Mexico

USA

CONCACAF tier 2

Honduras

Panama

Costa Rica

Jamaica

CONCACAF tier 3

Guatemala

El Salvador

Canada

Haiti

T&T

CONCACAF tier 4

Guyana

Antigua and Barbuda

Cuba

Nicaruaga

CONCACAF Minnows

The rest....

[Obinna]

We need wholesale change to the structure and approach to the game in Canada if we ever want to be a fixture in tier 2.

[Keegan]

So if the final round of WCQ was 8 teams would we be considered in the second tier too? There is no way T&T and Haiti are in our tier right now. T&T hasn't qualified for a Gold Cup since 2007!

The difference between us and Jamaica, Honduras and Panama talent wise really isn't much and if we get a good coach you'll see that next summer. With a full team I'd take our team over Jamaica's any day.. Richards and Johnson are starters for them like come on these guys aren't a tier above us. I think our Gold Cup record stands to show just how competitive we can be at times.

FWIW I think Costa Rica is the 3rd best team in CONCACAF right now.

[rob.notenboom]

We were about 12 inches away from making the hex this time (about the distance that McKenna flashed his header wide against Honduras at home) so obviously we can at least make it to the hex.

Over the previous 4 qualifying cycles, the fourth place team has gotten 16 pts (Costa Rica/Honduras 2010), 13 pts (T&T 2006), 14pts (Honduras 2002), and 12pts (Costa Rica 1998). If we were to get to the hex and having 10 games, getting that many pts is a possibility. Win 3 or 4 at home with a few ties (or a win) on the road and we would be there. After Tuesday's result that seems incomprehensibly far away, but I don't think it's so far as to be a pipe dream.

[Keegan]

We were about 12 inches away from making the hex this time (about the distance that McKenna flashed his header wide against Honduras at home) so obviously we can at least make it to the hex.

Over the previous 4 qualifying cycles, the fourth place team has gotten 16 pts (Costa Rica/Honduras 2010), 13 pts (T&T 2006), 14pts (Honduras 2002), and 12pts (Costa Rica 1998). If we were to get to the hex and having 10 games, getting that many pts is a possibility. Win 3 or 4 at home with a few ties (or a win) on the road and we would be there. After Tuesday's result that seems incomprehensibly far away, but I don't think it's so far as to be a pipe dream.

+1

[tmcmurph]

A fond memory for some of us that is now not a dream but one of those falling nightmares where you wake when you hit something. Hopefully the 8-1 loss will wake up some at the CSA. We'll know when they appoint the new coach.

[sting]

The point I'm making is purely based on talent alone. I'm sick of hearing this "we're not good enough" bull****.

We have players in some of the top leagues in the world and players who play ALONGSIDE players on Hondurans. To put this in perspective, Honduras was missing their best midfielder... he plays in MLS, the same league where De Rosario was MVP, De Guzman is a DP and Will Johnson is an MLS Cup winner and former All Star. COME ON NOW. The problem lies deeper but we didn't lose 8-1 because of it.

Could Bengtson or Costly be the starting striker for Frankfurt? NO. Is Mario Martinez better than Hutchinson? HELL NO.

Just because your players are in top leagues or play alongside players from other countries doesn't mean they are equal. The NHL is the top hockey league in the World, Wayne Gretzky and Tie Domi both played as forwards. I doubt Canada would have used Domi for the National Team.

Our players simply lack the skill. Honduras was able to finish 8 chances against us. Have we ever scored anywhere near that amount against one of top 10 CONCACAF teams? It's not luck they scored 8 and it's not the wrong National Coach preventing us from doing the same. We need hire level coaching but they won't be the ones to turn Canada into a scoring machine. That happens by making better players at the grass roots level.

[sting]

How long should we "concentrate" on winning the Gold Cup? Just until the 2018 World Cup cycle is over?

I think we should have a mix of vets and youngsters for an unlimited time. If they could win another Gold Cup, the young guys will gain a great deal from it and become the next leaders but going all young will mean early exits and less games. We as fans would enjoy watching a competitive team that has a shot at the Gold Cup rather than watching a young team that may or may not turn into something good. I know I enjoyed watching Canada win 2000.

[villus]

The point I'm making is purely based on talent alone. I'm sick of hearing this "we're not good enough" bull****.

We have players in some of the top leagues in the world and players who play ALONGSIDE players on Hondurans. To put this in perspective, Honduras was missing their best midfielder... he plays in MLS, the same league where De Rosario was MVP, De Guzman is a DP and Will Johnson is an MLS Cup winner and former All Star. COME ON NOW. The problem lies deeper but we didn't lose 8-1 because of it.

Could Bengtson or Costly be the starting striker for Frankfurt? NO. Is Mario Martinez better than Hutchinson? HELL NO.

This is what has lead us to deluding ourselves for years. We have players playing in some of the best leagues in the world? Who cares, the proof is in the pudding when they show up and play when it counts. Jackson plays in the EPL, how has he done this qualifying round? How many goals does he have? De Guzman is a DP? LOL who cares, TFC clearly made a mistake giving him a DP spot. Instead of asking yourself if Bengston or Costly could be the starting striker for Frankfurt ask yourself if any striker on our roster could put up 2-3 goals vs Honduras or Panama? The game is played with a ball and 11 players, correct and you don't get points based on what euro league your players play in, you get points from goals, you get goals from 11 players playing with skill and working as a machine for a common goal. Stalteri was a starter in the Bundesliga and EPL and he got torched by Honduras. League means nothing especially when most of our players are bit part players in those leagues. We need to face facts, just because we have some players in the EPL, BL1 and with some success in the MLS don't kid yourself that that = international powerhouse.

Bottom line is, Honduras has a domestic league thats the biggest advantage of all. Our players have played in europe for years because they've had to, they have no choice but to pursue europe at all costs if they want to play soccer professionally and because they've probably had better agents then those Honduran players. I'm sure England tells themself the same thing every major competition, "we have the best league in the world" "these guys just play in South America!" "we have players playing at big clubs!" as they get beat over and over by countries that are supposedly below them.

[lazlo_80]

is the title of this thread for real?

We aren't Guam. It's okay to be frustrated, but this is a little silly, non?

[guppy]

I did a little research and I'm starting to wonder if it's realistic for us to expect Canada to qualify for the World Cup.

I think so .. Because I think part of the problem is mental. They were one game short of the hex .. suppose Ricketts scored on that early chance .. suppose they got a goal in the Toronto game with Honduras instead of missing chances. Their shaky confidence might have held together. Still, they waste yrs and yrs replacing one under-qualified coach with another.

[madmonte]

I like your mode of thinking Keegan, and I agree that by players alone, I don't see how Honduras or Panama had much better than us. Whatever was fundamentally wrong, I don't think that was it. As a sidenote, we played fine at home...

Yes, we got beat badly in Honduras...but we got beat pretty badly in Panama too, actually. They REALLY outplayed us. Just like we REALLY outplayed them (and Honduras) in Canada.

I know most teams play better at home than away, but the disparity of how Canada played home vs away really needs to be looked at more. I'm not saying that necessarily Canada needs to play all their friendlies in central american climate, or all their opposition needs to be similar to them...I AM saying that this team has been subpar on the road, and it may have nothing to do with where they play.

[redhat]

is the title of this thread for real?

We aren't Guam. It's okay to be frustrated, but this is a little silly, non?

Absolutely. The title expresses futility, but we had our chances to make it. We were missing mental toughness, as the difference in my opinion. Perhaps a different coach and a group of players who can handle adverse match game pressures, could have made things different.

[Addona]

I like your mode of thinking Keegan, and I agree that by players alone, I don't see how Honduras or Panama had much better than us. Whatever was fundamentally wrong, I don't think that was it. As a sidenote, we played fine at home...

Yes, we got beat badly in Honduras...but we got beat pretty badly in Panama too, actually. They REALLY outplayed us. Just like we REALLY outplayed them (and Honduras) in Canada.

I know most teams play better at home than away, but the disparity of how Canada played home vs away really needs to be looked at more. I'm not saying that necessarily Canada needs to play all their friendlies in central american climate, or all their opposition needs to be similar to them...I AM saying that this team has been subpar on the road, and it may have nothing to do with where they play.

I do think people are reading too much into the scoreline ... after the 3rd goal, and certainly after the 4th, our players simply stopped playing. Should they have stopped playing? NO! But they did ... and the score got out of hand. But I don't think it's indicative of us being that much worse than Honduras, i.e. there is no real difference, to me, between losing that game 4-0, or 8-1.

[Keegan]

This is what has lead us to deluding ourselves for years. We have players playing in some of the best leagues in the world? Who cares, the proof is in the pudding when they show up and play when it counts. Jackson plays in the EPL, how has he done this qualifying round? How many goals does he have? De Guzman is a DP? LOL who cares, TFC clearly made a mistake giving him a DP spot. Instead of asking yourself if Bengston or Costly could be the starting striker for Frankfurt ask yourself if any striker on our roster could put up 2-3 goals vs Honduras or Panama? The game is played with a ball and 11 players, correct and you don't get points based on what euro league your players play in, you get points from goals, you get goals from 11 players playing with skill and working as a machine for a common goal. Stalteri was a starter in the Bundesliga and EPL and he got torched by Honduras. League means nothing especially when most of our players are bit part players in those leagues. We need to face facts, just because we have some players in the EPL, BL1 and with some success in the MLS don't kid yourself that that = international powerhouse.

Bottom line is, Honduras has a domestic league thats the biggest advantage of all. Our players have played in europe for years because they've had to, they have no choice but to pursue europe at all costs if they want to play soccer professionally and because they've probably had better agents then those Honduran players. I'm sure England tells themself the same thing every major competition, "we have the best league in the world" "these guys just play in South America!" "we have players playing at big clubs!" as they get beat over and over by countries that are supposedly below them.

You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. We have talent on par with these teams. Period. I'm not saying we have world class talent, I'm just saying that we have talent on PAR with the teams we needed to beat. There is no arguing it. I actually watch these players play at their clubs, I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. Carlo Costly couldn't cut it in MLS... last Tuesday he scored a hattrick against us. Bengtson is a good MLS striker, I'll give him that for sure... but Jackson is a decent Premier League striker. Again... just putting it in perspective. There is a reason he gets paid more $$$ than Bengtson to play footy.

What I'm saying is that the problem is management/mentality NOT talent. Anyone who thinks that these teams are that much better than us talent wise is out to lunch or doesn't know the players to begin with.

[Nesij]

I do think people are reading too much into the scoreline ... after the 3rd goal, and certainly after the 4th, our players simply stopped playing. Should they have stopped playing? NO! But they did ... and the score got out of hand. But I don't think it's indicative of us being that much worse than Honduras, i.e. there is no real difference, to me, between losing that game 4-0, or 8-1.

I think they stop playing after the second goal.