NASL sanctioning not secure

[Raven]

"Details are far and few between, but word broke this morning that the United States Soccer Federation has expressed concern over the North American Soccer League for sanctioning Division II professional soccer in the US for the 2011 season."

http://www.insidemnsoccer.com/2011/01/21/breaking-news-ussf-concerned-with-nasl-sanctioning-of-d2-pro-soccer-for-2011-season/#comments

[mmd]

Would the CSA be stepping on the USSF's toes if they were to sanction the NASL. The CSA wants to have a 2nd division, maybe this is their chance. They can add Ottawa, Hamilton into the mix with the American teams, and remove the dead weight. Just a thought.

[ted]

Would the CSA be stepping on the USSF's toes if they were to sanction the NASL.

Yes. It cannot be done. USSF sanctioning is required for US teams.

[Raven]

Update: USSF Confirms D2 Sanctioning Denied to NASL for 2011 Season

http://www.insidemnsoccer.com/

http://www.matchfitusa.com/2011/01/nasl-takes-sanctioning-blow.html

[jloome]

Did they make it a year? I had a year in the dead pool

All kidding aside, to me this should be the impetus Tom Fath needs to start building a Canadian league, designed around three regional loops, and not kicking off until everyone involved has a solid, realistic stadium planned or available.

If done right, soccer can make money. But this grade of shenanigan was never going to work.

[paul-collins]

Move the US teams up north?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The USSF appeared to bend over backwards to accomodate the NASL when provisional sanctioning was given and came up with an inventive solution last year with USSF-D2 when various doomsday scenarios were being speculated about so odds on the NASL teams will still get to proceed with their season one way or another even if it's not under the control of the NASL.

[alberta white]

JLoome,

Any suggestions on which way this should move Tom and Dave?

Should FCE concentrate on a PDL campaign upon which they win on the field and are crippled in the Pocket? or continue with another invitational season or (Two) until they can front up $40 mil for an MLS ticket, bearing in mind that Don Garbers model (to me anyway) is to create a football version of the NHL?

Could we cope with 'Oilers FC'...

Edmonton averaged 3500 if you include the Commowealth games.

Would Colo Colo come back again? Based on the competition I think they would, Its a challenge i think the coaches liked. but would the finances for Tom and Dave stand it?

Edmonton cup?

It works with championship sides. but can the pitch and seating at Foote be adapted to make it work without echoing around in the Commonwealth?

Again, Could FC Edmonton build up intrest if they played the likes of Eric Cantona's Comos Juniors?

[Richard]

Will we possibly see USL PRO become the de facto second tier with the current NASL clubs moving across if the NASL cannot get its act together? This was surely part of the thinking at USL HQ when they yielded to the NASL for D2 status and went with what must be a much more affordable regional model for USL PRO - a name which does not imply any particular level, unlike USL-2 or D3 Pro League, very likely deliberately so.

[jloome]

JLoome,

Any suggestions on which way this should move Tom and Dave?

Tom finds me objectionable, I think (totally not surprising if you knew me. Short-tempered, among other things). I rather like him, however. Either way, they already know my ideas for building a club and decided to go another way. I will say, conclusively, that I predicted all of this might happen to them a year ago. There are endemic problems involved in trying to start this grade of soccer in North America and call it professional.The fan base for this sport simply isn't the same as the typical north american fan base,and the ducks have to be solidly in a row before it can proceed.

Should FCE concentrate on a PDL campaign upon which they win on the field and are crippled in the Pocket? or continue with another invitational season or (Two) until they can front up $40 mil for an MLS ticket, bearing in mind that Don Garbers model (to me anyway) is to create a football version of the NHL?

To me, there are only a few ways this can logically go.

1. USL and NASL figure out a way to bury the hatchet and work together. Not likely.

2. Edmonton approaches USL. It originally was supposed to be an east-coast only league (although now has an LA franchise, I believe) so the travel costs would be ridiculous. To me, this is business suicide. The quality is insufficient in this city to make money.

3. Edmonton runs a PDL team. This could maybe keep them technically alive until they can work out a local stadium deal, which would prepare them for...what? MLS is very unlikely based on the existing demand, Edmonton's relative size and location.

4. Edmonton and Montreal hastily develop a national league, using existing facilities.As with the last CSL it dies a hideous death because the quality of product is simply insufficient for the market.

5. Canadian owners get together and plan out a league, with a major corporate sponsor like Adidas, as the U.S. did with MLS. They ensure from the start that proper facilties -- essential to the gameday atmosphere that drive live football -- are in place, so that there are no football lines, no crappy turf. They keep expectations realistic: 7,000 to 10,000 max per game in most cities.

If we want pro soccer to work in Canada beyond three MLS clubs, the last option is the only one that is going to work. Period.

With all due respect to people trying to work up from a lower level: you are catering to the wrong market. Dedicated hard core local soccer fans are not your client. The wider city population, particularly Canadians who follow footie overseas and want to party in a cool place on Saturday, are your demographic.

It's not a complicated equation, it's just really bloody expensive, planning intensive, and risk-laden. If done properly, however, it could maximize much needed exercise facility construction across Canada (by making elements of the stadiums open to public use, particularly any practice fields); it could help stimulate local construction economies; end city field booking issues by providing much needed extra slots, to prevent ridiculous game times for kids; provide medium-size facilities for medium-sized public events that simply look foolish in enormous stadiums .

Tough to get people to see that it's just not going to work if they try "easier" or shorter routes, however. Everyone wants the easy answer, but there isn't one in this case.

Would Colo Colo come back again? Based on the competition I think they would, Its a challenge i think the coaches liked. but would the finances for Tom and Dave stand it?

Edmonton cup?

I understand they lost a bundle on those, and ended out footing the entire bill for Colo Colo's Toronto trip and game against TFC Academy, to meet contractual obligatoions. So....no. Good lord, I hope not.

It works with championship sides. but can the pitch and seating at Foote be adapted to make it work without echoing around in the Commonwealth?

No. Foote is the death of pro soccer in Edmonton, perhaps the worst of the (few) available options. I know the mayor would be amenable to renovating Clarke Park however and expanding seating significantly.

Again, Could FC Edmonton build up intrest if they played the likes of Eric Cantona's Comos Juniors?

No, this is the exact wrong approach to take. The footie fanbase nowadays is sophisticated and informed, relative to what they want, and they see through such gimmicks. And Cosmos doesn't even have a team yet. Of any sort. OR a place to play. Or a league.

[jloome]

This has long been considered likely why they took that approach, yes. One of the issues, however,is that USL -- at least initially -- went to lengths to keep teams on the east coast. I'm not sure it understands the market any better than the NASL investors do.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

They keep expectations realistic: 7,000 to 10,000 max per game in most cities.

I would love to see what jloome would regard as unrealistic. :confused: That's close to Edmonton Aviators sort of thinking, basically, and would be wildly optimistic enough if it were used in setting budgets that it would be a recipe for a franchise not making it through to the end of the first season. Odds on what will happen is that the USSF will withhold final definitve sanctioning for the NASL until there is a broader base of investors involved but a D2 league competition consisting of the teams currently lined up to play in the NASL this summer will still proceed one way or another. In the mean time all sorts of people with a self-serving agenda will no doubt stick their heads above the parapet again to try to sell people all kinds of snake oil about Canada having a D2 national league of its own (that last bit is aimed primarily at CSA and CSL types rather than people posting on the internet, for what it's worth).

[jloome]

I would love to see what jloome would regard as unrealistic. :confused: That's close to Edmonton Aviators sort of thinking, basically, and would be wildly optimistic enough if it were used in setting budgets that it would be a recipe for a franchise not making it through to the end of the first season.

As usual you spew nonsense without asking any relevant questions. TFC draws 20,000 a game, montreal draws 10,000 a game, vancouver will draw somewhere around Toronto's figure. Why? They have top-tier stadiums and teams.

PROFESSIONAL LACROSSE DRAWS 9,000 A GAME IN EDMONTON. Pro Football, done right, is a lot more popular than lacrosse.

What I'm proposing has never been done, never been proposed. I put forward an argument suggesting top-level investment and infrastructure has to be in place before you proceed -- obviously referring to a higher-calibre than the Aviators, or anything tried as a Canadian league for that matter -- and you lower the intelligence of the entire thread, nay the entire board....no, **** it, the entire human race, with that ridiculous post, devoid even of an argument.

Honestly, you get snippy and personal when I respond petulantly, but you have a persistent habit of attacking posts without actually proposing anythjing remotely resembling an argument beyond "it won't work."

Really, I've asked you before. When it comes to my posts, just **** off.

[jloome]

I would love to see what jloome would regard as unrealistic. :confused: That's close to Edmonton Aviators sort of thinking, basically, and would be wildly optimistic enough if it were used in setting budgets that it would be a recipe for a franchise not making it through to the end of the first season. Odds on what will happen is that the USSF will withhold final definitve sanctioning for the NASL until there is a broader base of investors involved but a D2 league competition consisting of the teams currently lined up to play in the NASL this summer will still proceed one way or another. In the mean time all sorts of people with a self-serving agenda will no doubt stick their heads above the parapet again to try to sell people all kinds of snake oil about Canada having a D2 national league of its own (that last bit is aimed primarily at CSA and CSL types rather than people posting on the internet, for what it's worth).

Unrealistic would be another cut-rate league, with cut-rate atmosphere and cut-rate commitment.....because it's worked so well up until now.

****. This has to be the single dumbest post from someone who should know better that I've seem on this board in 10 years.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Really, I've asked you before. When it comes to my posts, just **** off.

I'll be the one that decides which posts I respond to and in what way. If as you have posted the FC Edmonton ownership are planning on building an SSS with an eye on eventual MLS expansion they have a lot more concept than you do as to how to draw that kind of crowd one day.

[Redcoatsforever]

I'll be the one that decides which posts I respond to and in what way. If as you have posted the FC Edmonton ownership are planning on building an SSS with an eye on eventual MLS expansion they have a lot more concept than you do as to how to draw that kind of crowd one day.

Actually, I think that now would be a good time to return to your Aviators example, since history has shown us that it's entirely possible to be planning on garnering support without actually planning on drawing the people in. Perhaps jloome got snippy-which he admitted to-but you haven't made an argument, you've done the same thing you used to do to all of our CSL threads, you just say "it can't work" because you think Canadians should forever be at the mercy of the USSF for our pro soccer.

I'm one of the "let's build our league from lower divisions up" crowd, but this NASL-sanctioning thing is a real game-changer. We actually have an opening to seriously consider our own D2, and basically all jloome has said is "let's get it right" and then suggested some fairly sound ways of doing so.

So, I guess my question is:

Why do you hate the concept of a well-built Canadian league?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There is a difference between thinking something couldn't work and hating the concept. Not worth pursuing this if you don't grasp that.

[Macksam]

As usual you spew nonsense without asking any relevant questions. TFC draws 20,000 a game, montreal draws 10,000 a game, vancouver will draw somewhere around Toronto's figure. Why? They have top-tier stadiums and teams.

PROFESSIONAL LACROSSE DRAWS 9,000 A GAME IN EDMONTON. Pro Football, done right, is a lot more popular than lacrosse.

What I'm proposing has never been done, never been proposed. I put forward an argument suggesting top-level investment and infrastructure has to be in place before you proceed -- obviously referring to a higher-calibre than the Aviators, or anything tried as a Canadian league for that matter -- and you lower the intelligence of the entire thread, nay the entire board....no, **** it, the entire human race, with that ridiculous post, devoid even of an argument.

Honestly, you get snippy and personal when I respond petulantly, but you have a persistent habit of attacking posts without actually proposing anythjing remotely resembling an argument beyond "it won't work."

Really, I've asked you before. When it comes to my posts, just **** off.

I have to agree with jloome here. If Edmonton had an SSS sized around 9,000 to 10,000 and the club was professionally run, it could draw well.

[jloome]

I'll be the one that decides which posts I respond to and in what way. If as you have posted the FC Edmonton ownership are planning on building an SSS with an eye on eventual MLS expansion they have a lot more concept than you do as to how to draw that kind of crowd one day.

Oh, so you've actually talked to the owner of the club for a cumulative couple of hours of his plans? You have sources among the local media daily? You've got sources still within the club?

No. I do. Consequently, as usual, I suspect this is your usual character assassination lacking a point.

Seriously, never has a board been so in need of an ignore button.

[jloome]

Actually, I think that now would be a good time to return to your Aviators example, since history has shown us that it's entirely possible to be planning on garnering support without actually planning on drawing the people in. Perhaps jloome got snippy-which he admitted to-but you haven't made an argument, you've done the same thing you used to do to all of our CSL threads, you just say "it can't work" because you think Canadians should forever be at the mercy of the USSF for our pro soccer.

I'm one of the "let's build our league from lower divisions up" crowd, but this NASL-sanctioning thing is a real game-changer. We actually have an opening to seriously consider our own D2, and basically all jloome has said is "let's get it right" and then suggested some fairly sound ways of doing so.

So, I guess my question is:

Why do you hate the concept of a well-built Canadian league?

I suspect he simply has no argument or doesn't understand the relative issues. He prompts the same vitriol from half the people on this board, always has. That's usually a clear indicator of an abject absence of humility.

[TFCRegina]

Oh, so you've actually talked to the owner of the club for a cumulative couple of hours of his plans? You have sources among the local media daily? You've got sources still within the club?

No. I do. Consequently, as usual, I suspect this is your usual character assassination lacking a point.

Seriously, never has a board been so in need of an ignore button.

Click on BBTB's username, I believe you go into View Profile (or it's equivalent) and then on the left hand side there's an option to add to ignore list.

[TFCRegina]

As usual you spew nonsense without asking any relevant questions. TFC draws 20,000 a game, montreal draws 10,000 a game, vancouver will draw somewhere around Toronto's figure. Why? They have top-tier stadiums and teams.

PROFESSIONAL LACROSSE DRAWS 9,000 A GAME IN EDMONTON. Pro Football, done right, is a lot more popular than lacrosse.

What I'm proposing has never been done, never been proposed. I put forward an argument suggesting top-level investment and infrastructure has to be in place before you proceed -- obviously referring to a higher-calibre than the Aviators, or anything tried as a Canadian league for that matter -- and you lower the intelligence of the entire thread, nay the entire board....no, **** it, the entire human race, with that ridiculous post, devoid even of an argument.

Honestly, you get snippy and personal when I respond petulantly, but you have a persistent habit of attacking posts without actually proposing anythjing remotely resembling an argument beyond "it won't work."

Really, I've asked you before. When it comes to my posts, just **** off.

I'm still of the opinion if we developed a Regionally Based 2nd Division (CSL Premier) --> West/East, we could have a totally viable model with a Playoff Cup at the end. It's under this model that I could see a Saskatoon based (definitely Regina based...Riders are too popular) 2nd Div side having some success in drawing crowds.

Something like this:

West:

Edmonton

Calgary

Saskatoon

Winnipeg

Victoria

Vancouver

Kelowna

Moose Jaw/Prince Albert/Medicine Hat/Brandon/Red Deer (One of Four)

East:

Toronto

Hamilton

Montreal

Quebec

Halifax

Moncton

Ottawa

London/Kitchener-Waterloo (one of two)

Two 8 team Divisions, with top 2 from each Conference Qualifying for the CSL Premier League Cup (held in one location each year, on a rotating basis --> like the Memorial Cup)

All 8 teams play in a CSL West and CSL East (Single Match Knockout) Cup, respectively, outside of the normal competition for a few extra games and some extra silverware.

Now, blast away at my proposal BBTB/Richard.

[Mr.Impact]

I Think the USSF has got it right. How could one Owner (Traffic) own major stakes in THREE franchises, and be president of the league at the same time? It's about time that they stop the revolving door of dead wieght franchises, that were doomed to fail. If they don't have enough teams that have Solid ownership, a decent stadium, and a demand for the product, then shut it down.

[Soccerpro]

I Think the USSF has got it right. How could one Owner (Traffic) own major stakes in THREE franchises, and be president of the league at the same time? It's about time that they stop the revolving door of dead wieght franchises, that were doomed to fail. If they don't have enough teams that have Solid ownership, a decent stadium, and a demand for the product, then shut it down.

+1

[joepaco]

I Think the USSF has got it right. How could one Owner (Traffic) own major stakes in THREE franchises, and be president of the league at the same time? It's about time that they stop the revolving door of dead wieght franchises, that were doomed to fail. If they don't have enough teams that have Solid ownership, a decent stadium, and a demand for the product, then shut it down.

it worked for the MLS.......