NASL sanctioning not secure

[Trident]

it worked for the MLS.......

Indeed.

[canucklefan]

So, there's no league for Montreal and Edmonton this year, but will the 2 clubs be able to play the Voyageurs cup 2011?

[Redcoatsforever]

So, there's no league for Montreal and Edmonton this year, but will the 2 clubs be able to play the Voyageurs cup 2011?

It might sound like a crappy way to go, but for Montreal they could always just play the first team in place of the Academy in CSL this year.

[jloome]

I'm still of the opinion if we developed a Regionally Based 2nd Division (CSL Premier) --> West/East, we could have a totally viable model with a Playoff Cup at the end. It's under this model that I could see a Saskatoon based (definitely Regina based...Riders are too popular) 2nd Div side having some success in drawing crowds.

Something like this:

West:

Edmonton

Calgary

Saskatoon

Winnipeg

Victoria

Vancouver

Kelowna

Moose Jaw/Prince Albert/Medicine Hat/Brandon/Red Deer (One of Four)

East:

Toronto

Hamilton

Montreal

Quebec

Halifax

Moncton

Ottawa

London/Kitchener-Waterloo (one of two)

Two 8 team Divisions, with top 2 from each Conference Qualifying for the CSL Premier League Cup (held in one location each year, on a rotating basis --> like the Memorial Cup)

All 8 teams play in a CSL West and CSL East (Single Match Knockout) Cup, respectively, outside of the normal competition for a few extra games and some extra silverware.

Now, blast away at my proposal BBTB/Richard.

Your first issue, before even choosing cities, is assessing and addressing the lack of national infrastructure.

The second is developing an investor's group and a key corporate sponsor

These are the hardest issues for a proper league, but essential. Every basic element of common sense shows that the market for good professional soccer, with a fervent club atmosphere, is solid in this country.

But that's not what we're getting. Instead, we're seeing cautious buy-ins with mostly mediocre players in poor venues.

If Canadians want a pro league the pre-requisites are proper capital investment, a major sponsor commitment, and infrastructure development plans that fit both community needs and team needs, in order to attract some government support.

I believe these things are doable, but it has to be due to a realistic desire for the league to MAKE MONEY, first and foremost, not to develop Canadian talent. If we have a decent domestic quota, such as five in the first team, minimum three starting, we can still massively develop talent, but also put quality on the pitch with experienced overseas players.

That means realistic budgets more similar to MLS than what we see in D2 now. And NONE of it will work without stadiums first. No footie atmosphere=no event status=insufficient community buy in. And the promotion must be WAY more intense and aggressive than we've seen so far.

It's a huge undertaking, but without infrastructure being addressed first, the "second-rate" feel of these ventures will remain their undoing.

[jloome]

Click on BBTB's username, I believe you go into View Profile (or it's equivalent) and then on the left hand side there's an option to add to ignore list.

Much obliged!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I'm still of the opinion if we developed a Regionally Based...

Now, blast away at my proposal BBTB/Richard.

That's a case of moving the goalposts because now you are talking about a D3 level league, while this thread is about D2 level. As I am sure I have already explained to you I see PDL as the more realistic business model once you move away from the big cities. Here is how I think a regional division three Canadian league could be formed:

http://canadiansocceropinion.blogspot.com/2010/11/possible-pathway-to-u-23-focused.html

and why I think there would still be a need for leagues like the CSL and VMSL to continue to operate at the same time in the GTA and lower mainland BC:

http://canadiansocceropinion.blogspot.com/2010/12/where-now-for-d3-level-soccer-in-canada.html

Meanwhile getting back to the actual subject matter of the thread, in the context of Edmonton if the FC Edmonton ownership have the finances required the obvious way to actually be able to draw the kind of crowds that jloome sees as "realistic" is to explore MLS expansion. With Toronto, Vancouver and soon Montreal playing in that league there aren't enough large markets left in a Canadian context to put together a viable D2 league aiming for those sorts of crowds in an economically sustainable manner. With the recent wave of MLS expansion soon only Rochester will be left as a minor league pro soccer franchise drawing over 5000 fans per game so the type of league jloome is talking about seems far fetched to me in the short to medium term even in a North American context.

[Trident]

That's a case of moving the goalposts because now you are talking about a D3 level league, while this thread is about D2 level. As I am sure I have already explained to you I see PDL as the more realistic business model once you move away from the big cities. Here is how I think a regional division three Canadian league could be formed:

http://canadiansocceropinion.blogspot.com/2010/11/possible-pathway-to-u-23-focused.html

and why I think there would still be a need for leagues like the CSL and VMSL to continue to operate at the same time in the GTA and lower mainland BC:

http://canadiansocceropinion.blogspot.com/2010/12/where-now-for-d3-level-soccer-in-canada.html

Meanwhile getting back to the actual subject matter of the thread, in the context of Edmonton if the FC Edmonton ownership have the finances required the obvious way to actually be able to draw the kind of crowds that jloome sees as "realistic" is to explore MLS expansion. With Toronto, Vancouver and soon Montreal playing in that league there aren't enough large markets left in a Canadian context to put together a viable D2 league aiming for those sorts of crowds in an economically sustainable manner. With the recent wave of MLS expansion soon only Rochester will be left as a minor league pro soccer franchise drawing over 5000 fans per game so the type of league jloome is talking about seems far fetched to me in the short to medium term even in a North American context.

Rochester quit doing well at the gates years ago. Even their own supporters have quit going to games.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

From what I understand a lot of people lost interest when the rhetoric from ownership about MLS entry being just around the corner stopped after the 13,000 seat SSS was built with funding from NY state. They still do well in relative terms compared to the likes of FC Miami and the Puerto Rico Islanders. With the departure of Portland and Vancouver this season and Montreal next season I think they are the only minor league franchise that can be relied on to consistently draw more than 5000 home fans:

http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/?p=3584

It will be interesting to see if they still manage to do it in USL-Pro this summer.

[Mr.Impact]

it worked for the MLS.......

Comparing the ownership involved with MLS's Single Entity structure, to NASL's Traffic Sports .... really? While Owners in MLS operated more then one franchise, they did it in major markets. They also didn't play out of high school football fields, drawing a handfull of people. Their Solid Net Worth also allowed them to absorb losses in the early years. Not to mention that they had an independant Commissioner.

How long Could Traffic Support a Minnesota Franchise, that seems to be looking for a new owner every year, a Miami/Fort Lauderdale franchise that changes name/colors every year, but still can't draw flies. They also had to inject some money to revive a dead Carolina Franchise. This is the 2011 Version of NASL/USL Survivor. Look back through the last decade, and thats What the USSF is trying to avoid.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The USSF's new D2 requirements were probably designed to force a merger between the NASL and USL factions but that strategy was torpedoed by the USL's voluntary "relegation" to D3. Now the USSF have a problem on their hands unless they ease up a bit on some of their requirements.

[Alex D]

I have Blizzard on ignore but I cannot help myself from reading his posts on these types of subjects.

The Faths are talking about building a 7-10,000 seat stadium with a price tag somewhere between $10-15 million (maybe less, i think they know someone in the construction business). Blizzards assertion is that if they want to draw more than 5,000 fans they should get an MLS team. So there's $40 million for an expansion slot, but wait, that little stadium wont do. Time to spend another obscene amount bringing it to 20K and MLS standards. It's fun spending other people's money isn't it.

Wait! What's that? Edmonton is about as high on MLS's expansion wish list as Rochester? It seems the days of showing up at the doorstep at MLS with a giant cheque and receiving a team are over. The only Canadian market left that may have an outside shot is Ottawa with the Melnyk plan but that one seems put out to pasture.

So where does that leave us? 3 Canadian teams in MLS and nothing bellow until you hit the bottom. We have owners in markets across Canada that want a team and have nowhere to go. At this point can you really tell me it is safer to join the non-existent/ even when it does exist completely unstable US D2 than trying to create something of our own?

I agree 100% with J-loome. If we want a thriving league, and it is within reach, everything must be done correctly from the onset. We have to treat it like a major league, our own version of MLS, J-league, A-league, or any of the league that have been launched in recent times, not some piss-ant Canadian backwater second division. This means proper facilities, a TV deal, major sponsors, and proper marketing.

Anything less is doomed to fail. It may flail around for a few years, and those years will be fun, but eventually it will shut down and nobody will be surprised. But if we, Canadian soccer, can get our ducks in a row we have an opportunity to change the face of the game at home.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The ignore thing is mutual but seeing as this latest post isn't outright abusive as some of the earlier ones have been I'll point out that Edmonton is much the same size as Ottawa and Ottawa was taken very seriously by MLS when Eugene Melnyk was putting together an expansion bid. The main problem in Rochester was that nobody ever emerged who was able/willing to write the cheque for an expansion franchise. Was listening to Pat Ercoli on a Rochester soccer podcast recently who appeared to me to be saying that in retrospect that was a mistake and they should have tried to go for it. In a recent post jloome confirmed that FC Edmonton's ownership are planning on building an SSS that is expandable to 20,000 because they have MLS aspirations further down the line.

[Alex D]

Ottawa was given the same lip service as every other expansion candidate that didn't make the cut. To be honest Melnyk's proposal seemed to be nothing more than trying to strike while the iron was hot. Eugene knew that Ottawa needed to build a new stadium and he was just trying to get some free money to expand his complex out in Kanata.

Don't get me wrong, if Melnyk did get the team, I have no doubt that he would do a fantastic job with it. I just don't think we will see anymore Canadian teams in MLS unless MLS creates it's own second division.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In an Ottawa context, Garber said if the SSS was backed by the city council it was almost inconceivable that they would not get a team. That's a lot more than lip service, in my opinion and surprised me a bit at the time.

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=266619&lid=headline&lpos=topStory_soccer

The Ottawa Sun is reporting that MLS commissioner Don Garber would all but assure Melnyk an expansion team if he gets the go-ahead from the city council to build a proposed $110 million soccer stadium in Kanata.

"It's highly unlikely and almost inconceivable that with a stadium deal in place we would not grant an expansion team to Ottawa," Garber told the Sun.

[Alex D]

The same things have been said in the past to St. Louis and Rochester. Ottawa and St. Louis both fell through and Rochester is still only half finished.

Ottawa is definitely the top choice for a Canadian MLS club. They have one big advantage that makes them desirable to MLS, they are located nicely in-between Toronto and Montreal.

From an Americans perspective, Edmonton is located a thousand miles north of nowhere and there are more polar bears than people. It doesn't matter if it is a large modern city in the middle of oil country.

There are great markets in Canada for top-flight pro soccer but they are currently stuck in limbo.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Compare and contrast with St Louis that had a stadium deal in place but didn't get a team, Garber's public posture on that points to them being comfortable with both Melnyk and Ottawa. People have been coming up with arguments as to why it can't happen every step of the way on MLS. It used to be they will never add a Canadian team, then they'll never expand beyond Toronto. Bottom line is if further Canadian expansion provides the revenue streams they are looking for odds on they will go for it. If not they will look elsewhere. It would take a huge up front investment so I can understand why FC Edmonton's owners want to do things gradually and follow the Montreal Impact's trajectory over the last decade.

[Alex D]

If we both cut through the BS we seem to be in agreement that there are markets in Canada where pro soccer can work if things are done properly.

Long term vision is where we differ.

You seem to think that we can have 4 or 5 teams in MLS plus maxing out whatever the allotment of D2 teams the USSF will give us. This is a nice goal to have, as MLS is a higher level than what we could ever achieve on our own. I just don't see anymore Canadian teams getting into MLS (and I was very pro Whitecaps and Impact to MLS, all the power to them). Having 3 MLS teams and 3 D2 (if there is a 12 team D2 and they don't count Puerto Rico as foreign) is better than what we have at the moment. But if we can get together our own national league, at a higher level than USSF D2 but below MLS, we will be much better off.

If we could find 8 ownership groups to come together and spend half of MLS's franchise fee ($20 million can buy a decent little stadium and set the team up nice) to set up Canadian 1st division clubs we will be miles ahead of 3 half-assed D2 clubs.

What we can't afford is 8 half-assed D2 clubs trying to form our national league.

And to head off this argument at the pass, yes a National league can survive without TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact. It will require a team in Toronto for sponsorship and TV reasons, and the owner of the Toronto club will need large amounts off money, vision, and balls in equal proportions. But if the Toronto club can be the St. Pauli to TFC's Hamburg (anti-corporate people's club underdog vs. big brother superclub(in context to Canadian football)), it should strengthen support on both sides.

The silver bullet is the Voyageurs Cup. These teams will still play competitive matches against the MLS sides. If you look back at Rochester's glory days they were fueled by US Open cup glory, knocking down the "superior" MLS sides.

I'm rambling a bit now so I'll bring it to an end. I know it's not easy, but it is possible. We have to show our support for a national league, let potential investors and sponsor know that we are interested. I am impatiently waiting for the results of the ad-hoc committee to see where we go from here.

BTW Blizz, I am actually enjoying this conversation. If you can keep coming back to me with logical arguments I will refrain from calling you words that will be censored.

[jloome]

I have Blizzard on ignore but I cannot help myself from reading his posts on these types of subjects.

The Faths are talking about building a 7-10,000 seat stadium with a price tag somewhere between $10-15 million (maybe less, i think they know someone in the construction business). Blizzards assertion is that if they want to draw more than 5,000 fans they should get an MLS team. So there's $40 million for an expansion slot, but wait, that little stadium wont do. Time to spend another obscene amount bringing it to 20K and MLS standards. It's fun spending other people's money isn't it.

Wait! What's that? Edmonton is about as high on MLS's expansion wish list as Rochester? It seems the days of showing up at the doorstep at MLS with a giant cheque and receiving a team are over. The only Canadian market left that may have an outside shot is Ottawa with the Melnyk plan but that one seems put out to pasture.

So where does that leave us? 3 Canadian teams in MLS and nothing bellow until you hit the bottom. We have owners in markets across Canada that want a team and have nowhere to go. At this point can you really tell me it is safer to join the non-existent/ even when it does exist completely unstable US D2 than trying to create something of our own?

I agree 100% with J-loome. If we want a thriving league, and it is within reach, everything must be done correctly from the onset. We have to treat it like a major league, our own version of MLS, J-league, A-league, or any of the league that have been launched in recent times, not some piss-ant Canadian backwater second division. This means proper facilities, a TV deal, major sponsors, and proper marketing.

Anything less is doomed to fail. It may flail around for a few years, and those years will be fun, but eventually it will shut down and nobody will be surprised. But if we, Canadian soccer, can get our ducks in a row we have an opportunity to change the face of the game at home.

He's not debating to resolve an issue, he's arguing to win. Trust me, the ignore button will save you headaches.

Anyway, yeah, that's it. Someone finally seems to get entirely what I'm saying: a top-tier league, based in Canada, but with the schedule regionalized. Not rocket science, just hard, hard slogging, because the most important work -- the infrastructure -- hasn't been done.

I will confess to having spied one of his paragraphs, which is why I didn't bother reading the rest. He uses the false equivalent of Montreal "building slow."

This is total nonsense, based on complete ignorance and a lack of research.

For the first seven years of its life (93-2000), the impact drew an average of less than 5,000 fans per game, was perpetually in the red and eventually went bankrupt in 2001. That`s despite starting play the year the Expos left town, giving them a natural offer of something new to an existing-but-disenfranchised fanbase.

In 2001, Saputo -- one of the partners -- rescued the team by brokering a government bailout and conversion to non profit status in partnership with Hydro Quebec.

Local fans then ratcheted up the concept of local team pride -- the best undercurrent for any football club -- but the team had huge government sponsorship support. It has also done a good job of landing significant corporate support.

But -- and this is key -- this only happened because the dedicated fan base, without much help from government or saputo, popularized the team`s gameday culture and environment, as with TFC. In this case, it had to at least in part be due to the confidence of being underwritten by government.

In fact, given that it was still mostly tax dollars that built BMO, you could say the same of TFC. Either way, both upped their fortunes as soon as they developed a government-corporate buy-in.

That eventually led to the construction of Saputo, which combined with the Impact fans` creating the right atmosphere, drove the popularity up to the level require for MLS level attendance. The excellent CCL run helped, too.

So his hypothesis that "Slow growth" was key is nonsense; slow growth almost killed the impact.

Vancouver survived slowly because it already HAD the prerequisities -- pro tradition right back to the NASL, an existing football stadium and an immediate buy in from a significant diaspora culture in Vancouver.

As for "slow growth" in Edmonton, I can tell you with a fair degree of accuracy that he lost over $2 million his first year by doing basically every ****ing thing I told him hasn't worked in the past, that any hardcore football fan with an iota of intelligence and observational skill could tell him hasn't worked in the past.

THAT mindset is why NASL is pretty ****ing doomed right now, and why going properly pro is all the fans will abide at this point.

Bingo Alex, you ****ing nailed it way more succinctly than someone as passionately pissed off over the whole thing as I could.

[jloome]

If we both cut through the BS we seem to be in agreement that there are markets in Canada where pro soccer can work if things are done properly.

Long term vision is where we differ.

You seem to think that we can have 4 or 5 teams in MLS plus maxing out whatever the allotment of D2 teams the USSF will give us. This is a nice goal to have, as MLS is a higher level than what we could ever achieve on our own. I just don't see anymore Canadian teams getting into MLS (and I was very pro Whitecaps and Impact to MLS, all the power to them). Having 3 MLS teams and 3 D2 (if there is a 12 team D2 and they don't count Puerto Rico as foreign) is better than what we have at the moment. But if we can get together our own national league, at a higher level than USSF D2 but below MLS, we will be much better off.

If we could find 8 ownership groups to come together and spend half of MLS's franchise fee ($20 million can buy a decent little stadium and set the team up nice) to set up Canadian 1st division clubs we will be miles ahead of 3 half-assed D2 clubs.

What we can't afford is 8 half-assed D2 clubs trying to form our national league.

And to head off this argument at the pass, yes a National league can survive without TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact. It will require a team in Toronto for sponsorship and TV reasons, and the owner of the Toronto club will need large amounts off money, vision, and balls in equal proportions. But if the Toronto club can be the St. Pauli to TFC's Hamburg (anti-corporate people's club underdog vs. big brother superclub(in context to Canadian football)), it should strengthen support on both sides.

The silver bullet is the Voyageurs Cup. These teams will still play competitive matches against the MLS sides. If you look back at Rochester's glory days they were fueled by US Open cup glory, knocking down the "superior" MLS sides.

I'm rambling a bit now so I'll bring it to an end. I know it's not easy, but it is possible. We have to show our support for a national league, let potential investors and sponsor know that we are interested. I am impatiently waiting for the results of the ad-hoc committee to see where we go from here.

BTW Blizz, I am actually enjoying this conversation. If you can keep coming back to me with logical arguments I will refrain from calling you words that will be censored.

Point of order: if the arguments were logical, you wouldn't be knocking them down so easily. Also, if he hadn't started his response to my original post with character assassination, I wouldn't have sworn at him. Although I do LIKE to swear. Ads emphasis sometimes, and I tend to think the people who don't understand that later go onto make comments about swearing being the lowest form of argument, or somesuch nonsense.

[Alex D]

J-Loome, I like the cut of your jib. I already have BBTB on ignored but like I posted before, I can't help myself from clicking "view post" in this type of thread. His cynicism, nitpicking every idea I come up with, only helps me think of more creative ideas for making this work.

[Macksam]

You seem to think that we can have 4 or 5 teams in MLS plus maxing out whatever the allotment of D2 teams the USSF will give us. This is a nice goal to have, as MLS is a higher level than what we could ever achieve on our own. I just don't see anymore Canadian teams getting into MLS (and I was very pro Whitecaps and Impact to MLS, all the power to them). Having 3 MLS teams and 3 D2 (if there is a 12 team D2 and they don't count Puerto Rico as foreign) is better than what we have at the moment. But if we can get together our own national league, at a higher level than USSF D2 but below MLS, we will be much better off.

Never say never.

[jloome]

J-Loome, I like the cut of your jib. I already have BBTB on ignored but like I posted before, I can't help myself from clicking "view post" in this type of thread. His cynicism, nitpicking every idea I come up with, only helps me think of more creative ideas for making this work.

Just annoys me. I already KNOW how to make this work. Just need the right people to listen, and don't really move in those circles, LOL.

Never say never.

Damn right. Conceptually, it's about corporate vision for long-term financial gain. If you can establish that, you can establish a first-tier Canadian league.

[Juby]

obviously a bit of an 'if' post (because NASL isn't done yet right?). But if NASL won't fly...

As much as it might be ad hoc to create a league like this, I don't really think there would be a better opportunity. I don't think any of the feasability stuff talked about in previous threads meant for 2011 to debut a league so they would have to work alot faster then they planned because this would be a glorious opportunity.

The Impact are mls bound but they would be a huge draw league wide. FCE would have a far better league to compete in then the PDL. We have two groups interested in NASL teams (Hamilton and Ottawa) who might now be wooable, that is halfway to a decent enough 8 teams. Maybe one of the CSL teams can drum up enough partners and sponsors to make a go at it. Calgary and Quebec City are still completely open markets for this level. Maybe the Vancouver area (or Victoria) could field a team (probably more of a prexisting club stepping up like the csl example). Maybe Winnipeg could jump up from PDL after the impact leave and maybe Montreal could support a second team in that league. (Saskatoon, London, Halifax and St. John's are I think the more obvious areas that you might also be able to put a team but you'd probably have to adjust your attendance expectations and budget in those areas).

The potential exists to put together a small league, I was always hoping we could have enough regional infrastructure when we made a league so we could have a few more teams and promotion and relegation (to get rid of failing teams without killing them and bring in rising teams easily ) but with an opportunity like this, I won't complain if we eventually had the same results done the exact opposite way (big teams having good youth teams and eventually these teams being a part of a decent regional league).

The main thing I keep thinking is if they got a league together for this year, their bound to make a few mistakes in the rush so I would think they would need to be open to adjusting things for a second season. The biggest concern I have is that I think jloome's hopes for 7 000- 10 000 might be too optomisitic. If we can get the money together I would say go for it and see if it takes, but let's say attendance was more in the 5000 range, that's still not a bad figure so some teams would have to adjust their budgets (Which is easier if your prepared for it and hopefully without comprimising the level of play much). In the past I showed a model of a very bare bones pro league that would probably need about 2000 fans a game (I was thinking we would be building, not leaping, up from our current level) so I was honestly thinking tossing around more vague figures like 4 000 - 10 000 would be a better idea (opens up the field to a few more communities and investors, it would probably be more of a regular 'minnows and powers' table then a typical north american salary cap league though)

Now if they couldn't get a league together and NASL failed, I still see that as an opportunity. For Montreal, not so much, the USL second division is better then the CSL and would be a decent enough league to play in (not so much for some of their veterens) however I think attendance would drop pretty decently. If they are stuck in this position they should probably loan our their decent aged guys and field a youth team to see if they can 'make' a few extra players. If they did this, then CSL would no longer be such a crazy option, much less travel, probably even less attendance than USL, they could put their reserve team in another Quebec market and double their chances of developing a youngster in a 'youth year' and it would probably create a bit of spike in the attendance for the other CSL teams on their road games. It is probably still be in their best interests to field a USL team though.

FC Edmonton has me thinking, they seem alot more screwed, they would have to join a short PDL season at the look of it. Their too far away from even the CSL (it would cost too much for the CSL teams to go to Edmonton). But here's were the idea comes in, maybe they can convince some existing teams and eager investors to pool together, say, 6 teams from BC to Saskatoon. This league would have alot of disparity, I'm imagining FCE on top, maybe a new team is close to pro, 3 or 4 teams stepped up to semi pro and 1 or 2 is still amateur but can afford to travel. If they could get a league that's semi pro on average together they would have created a better and more local option for themselves. And when the dust settles and they have a better place to go, hopefully the infrastructure of a western league will remain. Then 'boom', FCE would have used their credibility to get others to spend their own money and we would be left a de facto western csl.

edit: I know it's a bit much expect 6 teams to just appear as it'd be a big undertaking but it's not exactly a terrible grandiose idea.

This is mostly just a bunch of open speculation to try and flesh out all the things we could do if 2011 if NASL can't operate this year.

[Richard]

Have to wonder if this isn't just a ploy by the USSF to pressure the NASL, though there is always the USL PRO fallback position even if USL has already published its schedule.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just annoys me. I already KNOW how to make this work. Just need the right people to listen, and don't really move in those circles, LOL.

All too obvious that jloome sees himself as some kind of messiah on this issue. It's easy to gain some disciples by telling people what they desperately want to hear and by casting the people who try to stick to rational thought rather than a faith based belief system as the villains of the piece. Something for people to ponder. If the CFL lost the Toronto Argonauts, BC Lions and Montreal Alouettes to the NFL would it be able to continue in its current format as a high profile national league or would it have to downsize the scale of its operations and ambitions considerably to find the niche at which it would be sustainable on an ongoing basis?