Canadian born TFC Academy player wants to play for Uruguay

[Admin]

I do care because these two are prime examples of where the CSA / OSA / ASA have been totally f*ing boneheaded and led to two excellent players going elsewhere. Despite their roots, both wanted to play for Canada and both were humiliated in their attempts to do so.

Oh, I am not defending anybody.

I do care about that.

I just don't care about that

[loyola]

But did England call on Owen H. for their U19 or U21 side? What about Fernandes?

I'll say what I said a million times when this is brought up:

Take a look at the lineup for Spain in the WC. You have Iniesta and Pique who played for their U20 side. But how many of the others? Have all of Inesta's teammates ,who played Canada at the U20 in 2003, graduated to the senior side? Of course not. So the same HAS TO HOLD true that many of the current lineup ( if not the vast majory) never got picked by their national U20 coach at one timein their lives.

Yet Spain is one of those sides sides that takes the U20 very seriously.

Exactly. I will never buy the OH was cut at the U-17 level s an excuse for him to join England. Specially since he was underage and we have very little idea of how he was at that age compared to other players in camp.

When I look at PJ and DM selections as U-20 coaches for us I don't see many players they've missed or ignored. It seems most of our NT players have been selected at some points by those 2 coaches. I can't really judge for Fonseca as the 2009 is still pretty young.

So maybe most coaches would've cut OH at that time or maybeit was a mistake by Taylor, tough to say. I remember reading someone saying that OH wasn't that impressive when he was playing in Alberta and that he really blossomed when he went to Germany.

[difab]

It seems this kid might have gotten caught up in the moment...maybe not...who knows. What bothers me is the attitude of Canada as a second choice, many of the people who immigrated to this country should be thankful and playing for Canada should be a gesture of gratitude and a source of pride. As a first generation Canadian, in my own ethnic community, often I hear people slam Canada and the CMNT without having ever watched a game.

I often ask the question, if the old country was so great...why are you here????

[Free kick]

I don't quite get your logic. This is an argument about player attitudes. I am saying that both those players wanted to play for Canada as youths. What I am saying is that both players were snubbed by Canada, one early one, one at the U20 level, and that shaped their decisions to go elsewhere. Are you arguing that point?

Fernandes never turned Canada down at the youth level and was royally f*cked over by Mitchell, then Yallop.

********** told those paradigms of sportsmanship leading Canada's U20's to f* off when they tried some real bull**** tactics (YET ANOTHER reason I don't think much of Paul James) to pressure him to join the U20's a couple of years after his humiliating rejection by the clown Taylor.

I have no doubt in my mind that even if Owen H would have been selected by Taylor, the ultimate outcome ( ie.: His defection to England) would have been the same. All others things being equal.

As I said earlier, read that piece on Rossi that i posted earlier from ESPN. the mindset of the two are the same. A lot of athletes, especially soccer players, want to go where the spotlight is the biggest.

[Guest Ed]

I have no doubt in my mind that even if Owen H would have been selected by Taylor, the ultimate outcome ( ie.: His defection to England) would have been the same. All others things being equal.

As I said earlier, read that piece on Rossi that i posted earlier from ESPN. the mindset of the two are the same. A lot of athletes, especially soccer players, want to go where the spotlight is the biggest.

And I have no doubt in my mind that he would have enjoyed a long career with Canada if that had not happened. That is where we must agree to disagree. Rossi lived in f*ing Italy as a young teen, ********** was a one-time tourist to England proudly representing Calgary and Canada playing English clubs about the same time. Rossi was courted by the USA youth teams. **********, who was the star leading Alberta to their first final at the U15 level, was humiliated by our youth coaches. Their stories are quite different.

[Free kick]

What bothers me is the attitude of Canada as a second choice

Well, there you have it, a catch 22. We just cannot get any better as long as that attitude is out there and that attitude will be out there if we cant get any better. The only way to break the vicious circle is to make sure that we are able to cap tie the top talent before they ever leave to go abroad. And that means having all the talent in development infrastructures (ie.pro club academies) here.

And that's why there should be absolutely no tolerance for those players in the domestic youth systems who SERIOUS about playing for another foreign side . I mean, how worst than that can it get if it were to happen.

And, I am only now starting to wonder if all this hoopla over the WC is becoming detrimental. This whole thing is being marketed to us by mass media as an opportunity to reconnect with your roots and to shift your loyalties.

[RamR]

And I have no doubt in my mind that he would have enjoyed a long career with Canada if that had not happened. That is where we must agree to disagree. Rossi lived in f*ing Italy as a young teen, ********** was a one-time tourist to England proudly representing Calgary and Canada playing English clubs about the same time. Rossi was courted by the USA youth teams. **********, who was the star leading Alberta to their first final at the U15 level, was humiliated by our youth coaches. Their stories are quite different.

Even if getting cut as a teen was the pivotal reason for OH not representing Canada and even if it were an error not to select him for the youth teams (two big ifs that are hard to determine definitively one way or the other) it would still be an extremely weak character flaw in the person making the decision to have it unfold the way it did. I strangely would have a lot more respect for him if he just came out and said that he did it because for the selfish reasons of money or fame. Saying that you won't represent your country because you got cut once at the youth level is VERY childish.

[SthMelbRed]

And I have no doubt in my mind that he would have enjoyed a long career with Canada if that had not happened. That is where we must agree to disagree. Rossi lived in f*ing Italy as a young teen, ********** was a one-time tourist to England proudly representing Calgary and Canada playing English clubs about the same time. Rossi was courted by the USA youth teams. **********, who was the star leading Alberta to their first final at the U15 level, was humiliated by our youth coaches. Their stories are quite different.

Ed, I have to call bull**** on your current line of reasoning. Keep in mind that I generally regard you as one of the most respectable posters on this forum, but I think you're out to lunch on this one. You've used the word 'humiliated' several times in this thread. What is humiliating about trying out for a team and being cut? You make it sound as if there was some sinister plot to call this poor kid into camp with the express intention of busting him down for some unknown, evil reason. You need to get back into the reality where a kid tried out for a national representative team as an underage player and wasn't selected because the coach deemed other players to be more deserving at that time. If you have some evidence of something underhanded having taken place, please put it out there, otherwise, it's time to stop peddling that lie.

[Guest Ed]

The coach was a f*ing idiot as can plainly be seen by his selections. According to people I know who were at the camp, ********** did very well but not considered 'physical' enough by the f*ing idiot Taylor. He was probably the top 15 yr old in Canada at the time. But it was his subsequent treatment by James when he was about to debut with Bayern that I consider the 'humiliation' and put that bad seed in place for turning his back on Canada. Don't even try to suggest that there was any outside interest for him AT THAT TIME. There was none. His career was threatened if he did not go to the west coast for a camp and coincidentally someone I know was with him when he received the call. He basically told them to take their threats and go f*ck themselves. Despite all that, I was disappointed as anyone here that England came after him and he chose to play for them. But I can certainly see where he was coming from. He was treated like a piece of **** by the CSA people and Andy Sharpe made it quite clear to me that he was considered a piece of **** (I think "18 yr old *******" was the term Sharpe used in referring to him) for even suggesting that his belief that he could possibly make the Bayern squad as a reason for not going to that camp. You can rewrite history all you want. I was quite involved with people around him at that time and I trust their stories.

[Grizzly]

^^Ed you are the one rewriting history here like you have been doing for years defending Owen. Since we were both in the military, let me ask you something. If a soldier has had a few bad commanding officers who treated him poorly would you find him then justified to go defect to another army or to become a spy and give secrets to the enemy? It seems to me you would from your argument here. He may or may not have been treated poorly by the CSA at one time. Nevertheless, that is no excuse to sell out your country. BTW he was hoping to be at training camp for ManU but has had further setbacks with his injury. I have no qualms in saying I hope he never plays again. It would serve him absolutely right.

[Keano]

Uruguay is a fairly modern, comfortable place by and large Seb. Just sayin'. No quarrel with your general point though.

[Macksam]

I'd also like to point out that there was a school of thought among us that once the pro clubs established academies that these types of defections would cease or atleast become rare. In the third year of its existence there have already been 2 TFC Academy players represent other nations and now this kid.

Well, one left the academy before he switched so that doesn't really count. The other apparently wasn't good enough for Canada.

[SilverSamurai]

VPjr, I think this problem is deeper than just a soccer problem. Clearly anybody who is born, raised and lives in Canada should consider Canada "their country". However, this is very often not the case. So it is no surprise that someone would want to represent "their country" on the field, given the opportunity. This is one of the unique drawbacks of living in a country such as Canada.

Having said that, this will not be as much as a problem if Canada's MNT is much stronger than it is today. While we will always have a difficult time attracting players who are eligible to play for the major soccer powers, it should help with lesser nations like Uruguay.

The solution is a strong Canadian team! We will not be able to change young player's minds otherwise!

I think your missing my point a bit, when he says, I love my country I've never been to (cause were so special just for being us), and you say, screw you, were more special then you, well your no better, I think the only real response is 'hey kid, your a loser', even if canada's better then so and so country, people from so and so don't want to hear (nor should they) some guy from canada take a **** on their country, I'm just saying you don't (and probably shouldn't) have to **** on anyones nationality to say what your saying.

I think Canadians from certain parts of the world are more prone to this kind of behaviour and it goes much deeper than just football. Growing up in Vancouver, I can't recall my friends of Chinese, Japanese, Indian, English, German, Ukrainian, or Russian descent ever suggesting that the country of their parents/grandparents was better than Canada. On the other hand, there was no shortage of Italian-, Croatian-, or Central American-Canadians willing to **** on the country where they born, raised, and educated in order to 'big up' their 'home country'. These types can't be reasoned with and do not see any irony in the fact that they sit in all the comforts that Canada offers them while at the same time denigrating our home out of some false sense of duty to a homeland that for one reason or another pushed their families out. I have no problem with this punk catching a lot of **** for being stupid.

Basically, I think this kid sees Uruguay and thinks "I want to be a part of that." In reality, if he's playing at the TFC academy, he'll likely never be good enough for the squad.

A lot of people here think it's easy to "choose", but in reality unless you've grown up in 2 cultures their is a lot of crap you have to put up growing up. For me actually, it's a big reason why I don't see eye to eye with a lot of other Hispanics. The way I see it, if you're here the least you can do is show some respect. If the "old country" is so good, leave. Most of these people I refer to are immigrants, not Canadian born.

The comment about Canadian race?- Ok their is no Canadian race, nor ethnicity. It's a nationality.

Me: I'm Hispanic, that is my ethnicity and is something I can't change, nor would I. My nationality is Canadian. It's where I'm from and where I was born. My nationlity is NOT the same as my parents.

I still think this kid should be kicked off the academy though...

Random thoughts...

[Ivan]

Well, one left the academy before he switched so that doesn't really count. The other apparently wasn't good enough for Canada.

I know of the kid who went to Portugal (Ferriera, Perriera?) - who's the other?

[jpg75]

Well, one left the academy before he switched so that doesn't really count. The other apparently wasn't good enough for Canada.

Why wouldn't it count? He was a member of the NTC and spent a season with TFCA and used our programs to vault himself to a spot with Porto. Within a few months of his arrival he's suiting up for Portugal...

[Macksam]

I know of the kid who went to Portugal (Ferriera, Perriera?) - who's the other?

Some guy who played for Trinidad's U21 side or something. I have no idea what he's upto now.

Why wouldn't it count? He was a member of the NTC and spent a season with TFCA and used our programs to vault himself to a spot with Porto. Within a few months of his arrival he's suiting up for Portugal...

Yeah, it is bad regardless. I still don't get this bull **** of getting to play for a team due to parentage. Can FIFA please axe this dumb rule.

[Blue and White Army]

Uruguay is a fairly modern, comfortable place by and large Seb. Just sayin'. No quarrel with your general point though.

So is England, but compared to Canada, even it is a relative crap-hole.

If the "old country" is so good, leave. Most of these people I refer to are immigrants, not Canadian born.

Really? Even the people born in other countries who migrate to Canada are crapping on us? I'd expect their born-in-Canada kids to maybe think their ancestral nationality is "cool", but the actual immigrants themselves? I'm flabbergasted.

I still don't get this bull **** of getting to play for a team due to parentage. Can FIFA please axe this dumb rule.

To some degree, I can see why it was created. 17 of Algeria's 23 players in this World Cup were born in France. Unless I'm mistaken, none of them were good enough to play for France. Had this rule not existed, Algeria would have been much, much crappier. So perhaps the World Cup tournament itself is richer in terms of allowing for some movement.

Having said that, it goes both ways - players who should be playing for little countries get poached by the glamorous countries. But perhaps, overall, the smaller countries benefit more... at least in terms of quantity? That said, smaller countries have to be aggressive in finding talent from the larger countries in order to gain from this new rule.

Ok their is no Canadian race, nor ethnicity. It's a nationality.

Me: I'm Hispanic, that is my ethnicity and is something I can't change, nor would I. My nationality is Canadian. It's where I'm from and where I was born.

Perhaps I'm getting pedantic here, but is there such thing as a Canadian "nationality"? The term "nation" is different from country/state... it's an emotional belonging, or the "tribe" that you psychologically are a part of. It's not the passport that you carry. That's why Quebec is a nation, the Iroquois are a nation, the Catalan and the Basque are both nations. I suppose a Canadian nationality exists if anyone feels that it exists, but if it does exist, it is certainly in a post-nation-state sense.

There are huge advantages to Canada not being a nation-state, but it makes it all the more tempting for post-Uruguay punks to turn their back on their true home country (Canada!) as well.

[Free kick]

Some guy who played for Trinidad's U21 side or something. I have no idea what he's upto now.

Yeah, it is bad regardless. I still don't get this bull **** of getting to play for a team due to parentage. Can FIFA please axe this dumb rule.

Essentially, I could get an EU passport if I wanted to eventhough I have been born here and lived here all my life and been to europe only a few times for a vacation. It actually crossed my mind a few time. Thats because I have at least one parent who was born there.

Thats how easy it is to get an EU passport. I dont know what fifa could do to prevent someone from representing a country for which the have a passport.

[Free kick]

Yeah, it is bad regardless. I still don't get this bull **** of getting to play for a team due to parentage. Can FIFA please axe this dumb rule.

The better solution might be for fifa to intruduce some kind residency requirements. for example to qualify for country X you must:

1) Be a citizen of that country (ie.; hold a passport)

2) Not been cap tied to at the senior level for another country

3) Have held a residence in that country for two years or more.

Obviously, you may want to clarify residence by stating, say, that you must prove that you earned a living in that country rather than just having a mailing address.

These rules would not have stopped Jono from representing Holland and OH would have only had Germany as an option to play, which I would have found more acceptable and reasonable.

[SilverSamurai]

So is England, but compared to Canada, even it is a relative crap-hole.

Really? Even the people born in other countries who migrate to Canada are crapping on us? I'd expect their born-in-Canada kids to maybe think their ancestral nationality is "cool", but the actual immigrants themselves? I'm flabbergasted.

To some degree, I can see why it was created. 17 of Algeria's 23 players in this World Cup were born in France. Unless I'm mistaken, none of them were good enough to play for France. Had this rule not existed, Algeria would have been much, much crappier. So perhaps the World Cup tournament itself is richer in terms of allowing for some movement.

Having said that, it goes both ways - players who should be playing for little countries get poached by the glamorous countries. But perhaps, overall, the smaller countries benefit more... at least in terms of quantity? That said, smaller countries have to be aggressive in finding talent from the larger countries in order to gain from this new rule.

Perhaps I'm getting pedantic here, but is there such thing as a Canadian "nationality"? The term "nation" is different from country/state... it's an emotional belonging, or the "tribe" that you psychologically are a part of. It's not the passport that you carry. That's why Quebec is a nation, the Iroquois are a nation, the Catalan and the Basque are both nations. I suppose a Canadian nationality exists if anyone feels that it exists, but if it does exist, it is certainly in a post-nation-state sense.

There are huge advantages to Canada not being a nation-state, but it makes it all the more tempting for post-Uruguay punks to turn their back on their true home country (Canada!) as well.

Uruguay is a nice country man. No need to slag on them.

Certainly not a world super power though.

The immigrants I'm talking about are generally people that come from "rich" families. So they're fed BS stories about how being around the common people here would be a travesty back "home", etc. You have to remember in the majority of Latin America, the middle class is virtually non-existent and is something of a recent thing. Also most of these people left, not by choice but by necessity. I can only speak from experience but growing up, my parents would always say they were thankful for being here in Canada. They also did not approve of people putting down Canada, cheating the system. That rubbed off on me, for the better.

This is different from someone in the UK or Italy that decided to come over at the turn of the century.

But for every "village idiot" i've met, I've also met people that are thankful to be here and are genuinely interested in bettering society. It's definitely not a 1 size fits all.

Think of it as someone wanting to relieve the "golden years" but not being able to do it themselves and living it through their grandfathers.

I mean nation in the traditional sense. A sovereign, independent nation/country. I do see what you mean about a "tribe" being a nation, albeit not necessarily an independent country. Canadian nationality isn't the traditional sense of nationality either, which is why its hard to define what Canadian identity/culture is. We just know it's not quite American, although it is Americanized.

[Blue and White Army]

Uruguay is a nice country man. No need to slag on them.

What, my "crap-hole" comment? That wasn't for Uruguay.

[Macksam]

The better solution might be for fifa to intruduce some kind residency requirements. for example to qualify for country X you must:

1) Be a citizen of that country (ie.; hold a passport)

2) Not been cap tied to at the senior level for another country

3) Have held a residence in that country for two years or more.

Obviously, you may want to clarify residence by stating, say, that you must prove that you earned a living in that country rather than just having a mailing address.

These rules would not have stopped Jono from representing Holland and OH would have only had Germany as an option to play, which I would have found more acceptable and reasonable.

I would like something like this. Jono wanting to play for the Dutch isn't as bad imo since he's been there for a long time. IMO, ********** should have taken at least 5 years of residence in England before being able to suit up for them.

As for the ease of getting a EURO passport for people that have EURO parentage, it really shouldn't matter. A rich soccer player should be able to buy most pass ports in the world rather easily.

[SilverSamurai]

What, my "crap-hole" comment? That was for England.

LOL. No comment...

I would like something like this. Jono wanting to play for the Dutch isn't as bad imo since he's been there for a long time. IMO, ********** should have taken at least 5 years of residence in England before being able to suit up for them.

As for the ease of getting a EURO passport for people that have EURO parentage, it really shouldn't matter. A rich soccer player should be able to buy most pass ports in the world rather easily.

Ease? I guess I need to marry a Euro girl and get myself a Euro passport. lol

[Gordon]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/World+berth+would+make+Canadians+prouder/3250165/story.html

83% (or something close - brainis swiss cheese this morning) of new canadians say they would cheer for Canada over their native country in the World Cup.

[Admin]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/World+berth+would+make+Canadians+prouder/3250165/story.html

83% (or something close - brainis swiss cheese this morning) of new canadians say they would cheer for Canada over their native country in the World Cup.

Ok, I have seen this reported both ways like three times now.

Which is it.