Aljarov Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 The more top players that stay (or come) home, instead of going to Europe, the better MLS becomes. The better MLS becomes, the more competitive players in this league become. The more domestics playing together in MLS, or on any side together, the better their understanding - which can translate directly to the CMNT. Why not make the domestic game better if that's an option? You dont think having De Ro, JDG, Ali-G, Serioux and Nana will benefit Canada's national program? Tell that to the likes of Saprissa and Marathon. Increasing the quality of MLS helps across the board, but like most things it takes investment - both money, in players and by players committing to the betterment of the game here. The more players who can raise the standard the better the results. It's not as glamourous, or prestigeous, but it is more practical and the benefits over the medium and long term stand to be better. Canada has 3 years until it matters again - now is the time for this investment. Also, the more Canadians playing in Canada there are, the less likely they'll be to turncoat to some other random nation. Fans need to believe in the league and help build it. That's not done by encouraging the best talent to leave or bypass it entirely. In the present, probably the best case scenario is for MLS to draft, or develop younger players and then sell them abroad for a profit which can then in turn be reinvested. MLS gets both the income and the first few years of the career, the player then hits his peak abroad gaining new experience at a higher level to return to the league 28-31 to finish off while still having something in the tank. This seems to be MLS's game plan, though most of the returning US MNT players are older (Lewis, Berhalter, Keller etc...) than would be best. Someone like Beasley, or Pearce coming now would be about what I had in mind based on their circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 quote:The cold hard truth is, any Canadian player that can play on a top team, should. Why? If JDG was good enough to be a star player in a top team I would agree with that assessment. But at the moment, with last season in mind, I would argue that JDG wouldn't be a star player in a top team. He would be somewhere between a bench player (like he was at the end with Deportivo) and a decent starter. So, why not trying to be a star player in a lower league? This is what Landon Donovan is and he has been an excellent player for the US. This is what I see with JDG move to TFC, a potential chance for Julian to become a star player something he has never been at the club level (Yes, I know he was MVP in 07-08 but if I don't think he was a real "star" because if he had been one he wouldn't be looking at the MLS right now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 quote:The cold hard truth is, any Canadian player that can play on a top team, should. Why? If JDG was good enough to be a star player in a top team I would agree with that assessment. But at the moment, with last season in mind, I would argue that JDG wouldn't be a star player in a top team. He would be somewhere between a bench player (like he was at the end with Deportivo) and a decent starter. So, why not trying to be a star player in a lower league? This is what Landon Donovan is and he has been an excellent player for the US. This is what I see with JDG move to TFC, a potential chance for Julian to become a star player something he has never been at the club level (Yes, I know he was MVP in 07-08 but if I don't think he was a real "star" because if he had been one he wouldn't be looking at the MLS right now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by loyola Why? If JDG was good enough to be a star player in a top team I would agree with that assessment. But at the moment, with last season in mind, I would argue that JDG wouldn't be a star player in a top team. He would be somewhere between a bench player (like he was at the end with Deportivo) and a decent starter. So, why not trying to be a star player in a lower league? This is what Landon Donovan is and he has been an excellent player for the US. This is what I see with JDG move to TFC, a potential chance for Julian to become a star player something he has never been at the club level (Yes, I know he was MVP in 07-08 but if I don't think he was a real "star" because if he had been one he wouldn't be looking at the MLS right now). I agree with this reasoning in this particular case. Present me with another case, and I might take an opposing view. As has been mentioned before, JdG's move to TFC allows him to hone (I think he's past the development part) a certain skillset that he wouldn't necessarily be able to work on if he signed in a different league: playmaking and being a creative midfielder. I'm hoping that TFC puts him in the middle and allows him to pull the strings for TFC's attack. A couple years of him working on this facet of his game, in a decent league, day in and day out is a positive for me. You couldn't say for certain that he'd have the same opportunity if he moved to the Bundesliga or the Eredivisie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by loyola Why? If JDG was good enough to be a star player in a top team I would agree with that assessment. But at the moment, with last season in mind, I would argue that JDG wouldn't be a star player in a top team. He would be somewhere between a bench player (like he was at the end with Deportivo) and a decent starter. So, why not trying to be a star player in a lower league? This is what Landon Donovan is and he has been an excellent player for the US. This is what I see with JDG move to TFC, a potential chance for Julian to become a star player something he has never been at the club level (Yes, I know he was MVP in 07-08 but if I don't think he was a real "star" because if he had been one he wouldn't be looking at the MLS right now). I agree with this reasoning in this particular case. Present me with another case, and I might take an opposing view. As has been mentioned before, JdG's move to TFC allows him to hone (I think he's past the development part) a certain skillset that he wouldn't necessarily be able to work on if he signed in a different league: playmaking and being a creative midfielder. I'm hoping that TFC puts him in the middle and allows him to pull the strings for TFC's attack. A couple years of him working on this facet of his game, in a decent league, day in and day out is a positive for me. You couldn't say for certain that he'd have the same opportunity if he moved to the Bundesliga or the Eredivisie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Personally speaking I think this is a dream come true both as a TFC fan and a Canadian fan. I don't understand the arguments that this is somehow bad news, let alone agree with them. Having most of our best players playing at a high level in Canada for World Cup qualifying is exactly what we need, particularly to avoid overseas travel and to have longer time playing and practising together. This should raise the profile of TFC in Toronto and thus in the Canadian media even further, which can only be a good thing. With Vancouver joining soon and hopefully Montreal joining soon after, we could by the next qualifying round have a large pool of domestic-based players (not even counting other Canadians playing in US MLS cities) to draw from. It will remove one of the hurdles we always have had with qualifying since we've had largely Euro-based squads that have had to fly in two or three days before a crucial match. At Julian's age, I'm not really seeing the downside at all. The only unfortunate thing is from a TFC perspective, that it might be too late to get them into the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 If Julian had signed with any team in any of the top four leagues in Europe most of us would not have complained. But he had a good offer from TFC, not an average one, a good one, financially competitive with a lower level first tier club in a good league in Europe. That is the difference, and the fact that his rep could not convince any team that Julian could make a difference for them. That is disappointing. That said, I fully agree this is great for MLS and for TFC. He´s a great player and will show it in the league, his presence is going to add a lot to TFC overall, freeing up Guevara above all to be more creative, pushing DeRo forwards likely, and hopefully retiring Robinson, who is way inferior. It also means prestige for MLS, which is something the league needs. Clearly the only factor keeping some decent players from going to the league is money, if the money is there they will come. I am pleased for MLS and don´t think Canada will lose a lot, if anything, with this move. What was Julian going to improve on in Europe if he'd stayed? Very little, the only real loss for him is the level of competition and the prestige of playing in a top league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Aljarov The more top players that stay (or come) home, instead of going to Europe, the better MLS becomes. The better MLS becomes, the more competitive players in this league become. The more domestics playing together in MLS, or on any side together, the better their understanding - which can translate directly to the CMNT. Yet those claims have yet to translate to the CMNT. As for the USNT, they are more than quite happy to see higher talent going to Europe. quote:Originally posted by Aljarov Why not make the domestic game better if that's an option? You dont think having De Ro, JDG, Ali-G, Serioux and Nana will benefit Canada's national program? Tell that to the likes of Saprissa and Marathon. Increasing the quality of MLS helps across the board, but like most things it takes investment - both money, in players and by players committing to the betterment of the game here. The more players who can raise the standard the better the results. It's not as glamourous, or prestigeous, but it is more practical and the benefits over the medium and long term stand to be better. Canada has 3 years until it matters again - now is the time for this investment. DeRo is the only one that had shown constant support to the national team, despite him becoming a snob concerning a number of issues. Yet we saw him choose not to play in the Gold Cup but decided to remain loyal to his club. Apart from Nana, everyone of the players will be over 30 and there no guarantees for Nana to reach a level as such by the start of 2016 Qualifying. quote:Originally posted by Aljarov Also, the more Canadians playing in Canada there are, the less likely they'll be to turncoat to some other random nation. Yet going to Europe didn't play a role in their decisions to turn. quote:Originally posted by Aljarov Fans need to believe in the league and help build it. That's not done by encouraging the best talent to leave or bypass it entirely. In the present, probably the best case scenario is for MLS to draft, or develop younger players and then sell them abroad for a profit which can then in turn be reinvested. MLS gets both the income and the first few years of the career, the player then hits his peak abroad gaining new experience at a higher level to return to the league 28-31 to finish off while still having something in the tank. This seems to be MLS's game plan, though most of the returning US MNT players are older (Lewis, Berhalter, Keller etc...) than would be best. Someone like Beasley, or Pearce coming now would be about what I had in mind based on their circumstances. Yet TFC has shown to be going backwards with regards to this concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 ^ Landon Donovan is the best performer at the national team level in CONCACAF. I would like to think that Julian will also benefit greatly from playing in North America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Ed ^ Landon Donovan is the best performer at the national team level in CONCACAF. I would like to think that Julian will also benefit greatly from playing in North America. Yet, as with his issues with Beckham, he still lacks the maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 FFS, who cares. He IS THE BEST CONCACAF PLAYER and he happens to play in the MLS. Nobody can touch him in terms of international performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I wonder if anyone has told Nana that he's ineligible for 2012 qualifying matches and now has to focus on waiting until 2016. Similarly, I wonder if anyone has told the year olds on the TFC academy that their national team careers are over because they started at the academy too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 What tournaments are we meant to be qualifying for in 2012 and 2016? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed What tournaments are we meant to be qualifying for in 2012 and 2016? We will start qualifications for 2014 and 2018 during those years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed What tournaments are we meant to be qualifying for in 2012 and 2016? The 2014 and 2018 World Cups would be begin qualifying in those years, respectively - unless Concacaf drastically changes its format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Ed FFS, who cares. He IS THE BEST CONCACAF PLAYER and he happens to play in the MLS. Nobody can touch him in terms of international performances. Exactly, who cares if a footballer is a geek, immature, picks his nose, can´t talk in public, is an idiot off the field, has bad taste in music, and so on and so on. When you are an elite athlete I don´t think anything more should be asked from you. Now if you happen to be well-adjusted and intelligent, all the better, for you anyways, but it may not mean a thing on the pitch. BTW, I think Donovan was right speaking out about Beckham and showed leadership and maturity in doing so. And I agree he is the highest performing Concacaf player for his national team over the past 5-6 years, maybe Rafa Márquez can be called close or better as long as Mexico qualifies, but Donovan is a great performer for the USA, all his European failures notwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keano Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 At the end of the day I want to great players play live. So I'm very excited to see Julian with TFC. I agree with those who are pointing out that he's not just going to rapidly decline as a player simply because he's in the MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaku_bert Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Exactly, who cares if a footballer is a geek, immature, picks his nose, can´t talk in public, is an idiot off the field, has bad taste in music, and so on and so on. When you are an elite athlete I don´t think anything more should be asked from you. Now if you happen to be well-adjusted and intelligent, all the better, for you anyways, but it may not mean a thing on the pitch. BTW, I think Donovan was right speaking out about Beckham and showed leadership and maturity in doing so. And I agree he is the highest performing Concacaf player for his national team over the past 5-6 years, maybe Rafa Márquez can be called close or better as long as Mexico qualifies, but Donovan is a great performer for the USA, all his European failures notwithstanding. Jinkies! I agree with both of you!? Very well said. There was nothing wrong in Donovan saying what he said and it actually rings very true. And JDG should not be hampered by playing in MLS if the examples of Donovan and others is to be followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Canada has had a rising European-based player curve, including top flight players, over the past decade or so (maybe a slight downturn this year), and it has not shown in international results. At all. In part I think that whatever they were learning in top flight Euro football they were not applying to their play for us. Bad on them. Then there is a CSA that may have put up some impediments that were hard to overcome, and average coaching (I am being nice). In any case, having guys with EPL experience, Bundesliga, who do not step up for Canada, well that is disappointing. Guys who have the experience and competitive edge and give some of it to us. Hasn't really happened has it? In principle it is always better for our guys to acquire that sort of profile and bring it back positively to Canadian national team play, but so far we really have not seen it. So no sweat Canada-wise with Julian, who in any case is no longer on the strong part of the learning curve, he is past it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy I do, however, look forward to this debate in two years time when its Rob Friend or Ian Hume or Hutch or... that we are talking about and its Vancouver that is the MLS team. I wonder if some opinions will soften when it’s their team that is benefiting (This is a general comment, not directed at you as an individual J) As I feel that this comment is at least partially directed at me I will respond... I don't really have a problem with this move at all. While it is nice to watch Canadians who play at the highest level and hold them up as examples for Canadian soccer bashers, JDG in Toronto will have lots of benefits. As stated, it should raise the profile of the National Team in Toronto which I think is the most important. De Guzman is developed as a player and I don't believe his game will suffer. If the US's best player can play in MLS, I don't have a problem with our best being here either. I think of the positive impact this could have on young kids growing up in Toronto as well. I understand that some people made all of these points when Dero was traded to TFC, but I think Julian is just at a way different level. I dream of the day when Rob Friend and Josh Simpson are playing for the Whitecaps. This is just another step in the growth of TFC, and if MLS doesn't hold it back, I hope it grows even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. If Julian had signed with any team in any of the top four leagues in Europe most of us would not have complained. But he had a good offer from TFC, not an average one, a good one, financially competitive with a lower level first tier club in a good league in Europe. That is the difference, and the fact that his rep could not convince any team that Julian could make a difference for them. That is disappointing. That said, I fully agree this is great for MLS and for TFC. He´s a great player and will show it in the league, his presence is going to add a lot to TFC overall, freeing up Guevara above all to be more creative, pushing DeRo forwards likely, and hopefully retiring Robinson, who is way inferior. It also means prestige for MLS, which is something the league needs. Clearly the only factor keeping some decent players from going to the league is money, if the money is there they will come. I am pleased for MLS and don´t think Canada will lose a lot, if anything, with this move. What was Julian going to improve on in Europe if he'd stayed? Very little, the only real loss for him is the level of competition and the prestige of playing in a top league. Well put. Like what I was trying to say but way more eloquent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 One more thing to add, the more players in MLS the more likelihood they will play in the Concacaf Champions League, thus getting more familiar with Concacaf road venues and crappy officiating. Jakovic with DCU as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimamalek Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by canucklefan I still can't believe Julian is thinking about TFC. TFC players will play 6 more games and after that they won't play until March 2010. I assume that because I don't believe anymore on TFC chances in making the playoffs. So, assuming Julian signs for TFC and TFC doesn't make the playoffs, he would be playing only 6 club games between June 2009 and March 2010? I don't believe it. Yah, because Turkey does so poorly internationally because most of their players play on 2-3 teams in a 2nd Tier league. Do you read what you type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by nimamalek Yah, because Turkey does so poorly internationally because most of their players play on 2-3 teams in a 2nd Tier league. Do you read what you type? Dude, do you read what you're quoting? He's not knocking MLS in that post, he's knocking the fact that Julian will only play anywhere from 6 to 11 games for the remainder of this MLS season and then sit idle again until March 2010. Tack that on to Julian having barely played since March 8, 2009 - 2 starts and a late sub appearance down the stretch with Depor - and 4 1/2 games (Cyprus, 1/2 vs. Guate, JAM, ES, HON) with Canada this summer. I think this is something that hasn't been touched on enough in this thread. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/gamelog?id=22565&cc=5901 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimamalek Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 Dude, do you read what you're quoting? He's not knocking MLS in that post, he's knocking the fact that Julian will only play anywhere from 6 to 11 games for the remainder of this MLS season and then sit idle again until March 2010. Tack that on to Julian having barely played since March 8, 2009 - 2 starts and a late sub appearance down the stretch with Depor - and 4 1/2 games (Cyprus, 1/2 vs. Guate, JAM, ES, HON) with Canada this summer. I think this is something that hasn't been touched on enough in this thread. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/gamelog?id=22565&cc=5901 Sry took the wrong quote I was trying to quote someone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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