Free kick Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Yes, but there are also 15 American MLS teams compared to 1 Canadian team. Not convincing. Or you missed my point. OK so there are 15 American to one Cnd teams. But how many Canadians will be available in the NCAA draft pool in any given year? lets say of the top 45-50 draft eligible players, there are four Canadians and they are ranked ( for arguments sake ) 8th, 19th, 25th and 32nd. Now, lets say TFC owns the picks no : 2, 14, 29, and 36. What what are the odds that under such a system the the Cnd player will be available when TFC's turn comes up and that player will match their needs. I say its close to impossible and that's why I said that, under the existing system, the numbers work against TFC and as a result, we are being force fed American players. If you own pick number two and teh best Canadian is ranked number 8 on your books, well are you going to draft him only because he is Canadian? How do you run a team or business that way. Your goal, as manager, afterall, is to improve the team. Under this example, what are the odds that he will be available when you draft in the fourteenth spot? As I said, the current setup makes absolutely no sense and hinders TFC and Canadian soccer. It should be changed. If TFC were to negotiate some kind of exclusive territorial status on Canadian talent, they would logically have to give something back. I would gladly forgo the right to draft NCAA talent in return for the right to secure and develop talent as young as 15 and retain their signing right. As I said, right now, the numbers game works totally against us. And means that any player ( coming along today) like Deguzman, Atiba, of Hume would see no benefit in it. Nor would Canadan soccer. Why should someone like a 15 Julian De Guzman opt for the TFc academy when he has a chance to go to a full residence program at Marseille? he'll likely say, screw that. And what incentive is there for TFC to spend resources in developing him if he has to go back into the draftand or get steer towards the NCAA. What if a typical 15 yr old JDG is not interested in the NCAA? Which gets back to the original big picture benefit of MLS for Canada. That being to provide an avenue for younger players to work and develop under a professional setting. On that front, the benefits so far, have not yet been fully realised in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronto Ruffrider Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick I agree with that statement. But at the same time, something has to be done at the league level in order to recognize the unique status and situation of Toronto FC and of the fact that TFC is a Canadian franchise. The league rules were conjured up from its infancy with an eye to developing US talent. As such the structure exist and recognize the the US college system as the devopment vehicle for drafting and developing talent. But Canadians kids may not have access to the US colleges in the same way as american kids. And, Canadian kids might have a different cultural perspective on college athletics as a place to develop from a profesional careers. Take players like Ian Hume, Atiba Hutchison and Julian De Guzman for example. They didn't go to the NCAA. But what is MLS doing to ensure that future players of that talent have access to TFC and are available and acessible to TFC when they start off their careers. Right now MLS is doing nothing for those types of players. If those players would have scouted and enterred the TFC academy in when they were 15 and 16, TFC would not have had the flexibility and motivation to work on developing them and being certain that they will be available to the senior roster at some point in their futures. Right now the system is working ( for lack of better word) to force feed american players down our throats. Granted, I know the circumstances and unique and I dont fault TFC for this. Nor do I fault TFC for choosing the best available talent. But at the very least TFC should be permitted to do the folowing: 1) Run an academy that permitts and allows a residency status 2) Grant the rights to TFC to allow all of ( or a greater number of) the academy developed talent rather than having a system that steers them towards US colleges and forces them to re enter the draft so that they can be picked by someone like Colorado. Right now, the simple math works against TFC and against Canadian soccer. Populationwise, there are ten time more americans than canadians. I would gladly favour system wereby TFC forgoes the the opportunity to particpate in the NCAA draft in favour of being allowed to secure the right to Cnd talent right from the age of 15. THANK YOU for posting this. The MLS SuperDraft consists of an NCAA player pool. As such, a club such as TFC can't possibly fill its roster with domestic players from this draft. With few Canadians available on the free transfer market, TFC needs another avenue for stockpiling domestics. That avenue can be the academy, but MLS needs to lessen the restrictions that prevent teams from going this route. At the moment, I can understand why TFC has such lax domestic roster requirements: there aren't enough MLS-calibre Canadians that can be signed for MLS prices. However, when our extra American and International roster spots expire and we're forced to field a more Canadian squad, it's up to the league to ensure that we have the means to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Very good post Free Kick. I agree. quote:Originally posted by Free kick If TFC were to negotiate some kind of exclusive territorial status on Canadian talent, they would logically have to give something back. Not a bad idea from a TFC angle, but from a Canadian soccer angle, we should be careful what we wish for. With a Mo Johnston-esque or non-Canadian-loving GM, could that possibly lead to a bunch of young guys embargoed from MLS opportunities because TFC won't waive their rights but are only offering academy spots or crap dev wages? I mean, it's all hypothetical. It's not like there are many Canadians playing in the other team's academies or being drafted by other squads. But an exclusivity agreement is akin widening one door but closing and locking 19 others. Ok, bad metaphor, but if used improperly by TFC, that could be giving away a lot of potential opportunities for our kids Canada-wide just to benefit one pro team. Try selling that to a kid from Sask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdroze Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Does anyone here understand how Generation Adidas works? Do players apply to join GA, or are they chosen by the league? I know GA is not limited to Americans, but it seems to be limited to players in the American system: high schools, college, and national development programs. Would it be possible to expand the scope of GA to Canada as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by rdroze Does anyone here understand how Generation Adidas works? Do players apply to join GA, or are they chosen by the league? I know GA is not limited to Americans, but it seems to be limited to players in the American system: high schools, college, and national development programs. Would it be possible to expand the scope of GA to Canada as well? The MLS consults with USSF and NCAA coaches to assemble a list of GA potential players (basically anyone playing in the US who is not a graduating college senior). The league negotiates with them, contracts are tendered to a limited number and that group makes up the GA class for any given year. I don't see why GA could not extend to Canada except that MLS is an American league and their primary interest is strengthening the American system. it seems awfully strange to me that MLS would limit its draft to only US based players but that's MLS...a strange league. The NBA seems to have figured out the benefits of drafting players from outside its US borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 According to Uber-douche Bill Archer, the teams request the players be put on GA. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/blog.php?b=3061 "The only shocker was when a Generation adidas kid set a world record for free falling when Daniel Cruz dropped to the middle of the third. Seriously, how bad was your combine when an MLS team won't take you FOR FREE? Some of you may not know that GenA's aren't randomly selected by a panel of degenerate alcoholics. Rather, each and every one of them is "requested" by at least one team. Then, if the kid signs, the team that asked for him has to take him if nobody else does. Of course anybody else can take him if they want, but in the end if they don't, then he's yours. Congratulations Houston." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Marc Very good post Free Kick. I agree. Not a bad idea from a TFC angle, but from a Canadian soccer angle, we should be careful what we wish for. With a Mo Johnston-esque or non-Canadian-loving GM, could that possibly lead to a bunch of young guys embargoed from MLS opportunities because TFC won't waive their rights but are only offering academy spots or crap dev wages? I mean, it's all hypothetical. It's not like there are many Canadians playing in the other team's academies or being drafted by other squads. But an exclusivity agreement is akin widening one door but closing and locking 19 others. Ok, bad metaphor, but if used improperly by TFC, that could be giving away a lot of potential opportunities for our kids Canada-wide just to benefit one pro team. Try selling that to a kid from Sask. Alot of people have place the entire blame on Mo Johnson and / or the club but why would the next guy who comes along be any different? Its MLSEL who pays Mo Johnson's salary not the CSA. And it will be the win / loss record that determines whether he keeps his job or not. What would anyone of us do if we had ( in my hypothetical example ) to draft second and fouteenth overall but in our objective assessment, the best Canadian was ranked eighth? These are very real situations. We have seen in other drafts so far that TFC has picked up canadians in the " what have you got to lose " rounds. But a 42nd ranked player is still a 42nd ranked players ( Canadian or Not ). Other than the token PR benefit of picking up a canuck . There is nothing to ensure that the best Canadian talent will end up with TFC. Unless they fork out lots of cash or get lucky in the transfers market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by VPjr The MLS consults with USSF and NCAA coaches to assemble a list of GA potential players (basically anyone playing in the US who is not a graduating college senior). The league negotiates with them, contracts are tendered to a limited number and that group makes up the GA class for any given year. I don't see why GA could not extend to Canada except that MLS is an American league and their primary interest is strengthening the American system. it seems awfully strange to me that MLS would limit its draft to only US based players but that's MLS...a strange league. The NBA seems to have figured out the benefits of drafting players from outside its US borders. That might actually be an advantage for TFC, though. I still am not 100% sure why Toronto was able to sign the likes of Attakora, Gala, and other Canadian U-20's without them having to go through the draft. On the surface, it seems as though those players should be forced to go through the draft system, yet somehow TFC signed them without any hassle. Perhaps that's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi That might actually be an advantage for TFC, though. I still am not 100% sure why Toronto was able to sign the likes of Attakora, Gala, and other Canadian U-20's without them having to go through the draft. On the surface, it seems as though those players should be forced to go through the draft system, yet somehow TFC signed them without any hassle. Perhaps that's a good thing. Probably because they are considered undrafted players and they never were a part of the academy. They're status was no different than Lombardo. Question: I am wondering if Ibrahim was ever drafted? I suspect that Nana & Gala were in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi I still am not 100% sure why Toronto was able to sign the likes of Attakora, Gala, and other Canadian U-20's without them having to go through the draft. I've been wondering about this from a Vancouver perspective. In theory Whitecaps could spent two full seasons developing players in the Academy who are interested in signing MLS contracts. This would be a huge advantage over Philly or the other 2011 team. An advantage well deserved as far as I'm concerned, but still seems too good to be true for MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Probably because they are considered undrafted players and they never were a part of the academy. They're status was no different than Lombardo. Question: I am wondering if Ibrahim was ever drafted? I suspect that Nana & Gala were in the same boat. They can only be considered 'undrafted' if they actually submitted their names to the draft. As far as I know, they did not. Lombardo was a discovery pick, because he was playing professionally in Italy before joining TFC. Completely different status. Ibrahim was drafted, back in 2006 when he was 15. He was the second youngest player ever drafted in MLS, after Freddy Adu. He was a member of the US U-17 side at the time. Regardless, it seems that only players who played as amateurs in the US system (either the NCAA or any league/team under the USSF jurisdiction) need to submit to the draft. If that is the case, then it is actually an advantage for TFC (and Vancouver, should the join the league in '11). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmynow Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 sometimes there's no point at all for TFC to draft canadians since the American teams are highly unlikely to devote a roster spot to an international kid who will almost never play. I'm actually surprised they drafted Hall at all, since I doubt any American team would take him and then you could just sign him as a free agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jimmynow sometimes there's no point at all for TFC to draft canadians since the American teams are highly unlikely to devote a roster spot to an international kid who will almost never play. I'm actually surprised they drafted Hall at all, since I doubt any American team would take him and then you could just sign him as a free agent. Good point. Seems TFC can't win no matter what they do. I think they have to walk a tight rope and the fans are being a little harsh on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 ^ Hardly. Their 'fans' are largely eating this stuff up. But here, the home of Canadian soccer supporters, who are aware of the history of the TFC franchise, and in particular the relationship between the CSA and the building of BMO field, we expect that TFC should be a showcase for Canadian players, not CONCACAF rivals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi What's the big deal? Were there any Canadians that would be deemed more talented in this draft? The obvious answer is no, so go for whom you think is the most talented. The fact that he's a domestic for roster purposes is a huge deal. And "time honoured", Ed? That's a little silly, don't you think? This is Toronto's third ever draft. What are they supposed to do, forfeit all of their picks in the draft and only select Canadians? I'm all for developing Canadians, but not at the expense of improving the franchise. Way to tow the company line Rudi. You certainly know how to spew the same crap the club does. If you took a moment to look at things objectively, you'd be embarassed by TFC's record too. Instead, your focused on your title of "Super Biggest Mega Fan" and are avoiding being critical. Part of being a fan is to ask questions, but you're too busy spouting out the clubs answers I suppose. TFC's record with Canadians is horrible, and that's without comparing it to Montreal and Vancouver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Rudi is fairly objective being that he's both a Voyageur and a TFC supporter. I know he's the latter because he's done a lot for this organization, even though I've teased him from time to time. Other than having a brother who played professional football, I don't recall RJB doing anything for Canada in terms of coming out to Voyageur events. And every post he makes is in reference to TFC's alleged mistreatment of Canadians. I guess people here are smart enough to read between the lines when someone starts spouting off about someone's objectivity. I hope so. My opinion: TFC has failed at putting together a strong club. They need to be a strong club so that they can change MLS to be more accommodating to Canadian needs: namely, fixing this crap whereby the Academy is just a farce. Whitecaps though, would be under the exact same situation were they in MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Rudi is fairly objective being that he's both a Voyageur and a TFC supporter. I know he's the latter because he's done a lot for this organization, even though I've teased him from time to time. OK, I may have gone a little over the top. Rudi, I'm sorry for being so flippant. I hate TFC(have you guessed?), and it totally clouds my judgement. So, I offer my apology. quote:Other than having a brother who played professional football, I don't recall RJB doing anything for Canada in terms of coming out to Voyageur events. I take offense to this. I do just as much for Canadian soccer as the next guy. I raise a stink at Cafe Roma when they won't put Canada on. I write all the letters to media types, or CSA staffers that the Voyageurs ask me to write. And I trumpet Canadian soccer to anyone who will listen. Just because I don't come to your 'events' doesn't mean a thing, and shame on you for suggesting that. Tell me, if I did none of the above, but came out to an 'event' and had half a dozen beers, would that make me worthy to you? Ignorant. Maybe we need to have different levels of Voyageurs so that YNWA can differentiate between those who do something, and those who don't, since according to him all support and participation has to be overt? quote:And every post he makes is in reference to TFC's alleged mistreatment of Canadians. I guess people here are smart enough to read between the lines when someone starts spouting off about someone's objectivity. I hope so. Read above: I hate TFC. I hearby admit that my objectivity on the subject is mostly cloudy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Oh man, I didn't even notice these responses until now. My replies to Ed were not towing any company lines, I'd love to have as many GOOD Canadians on TFC as possible, but I know the realities of soccer in the country coupled with the realities of MLS and the mechanisms within the league (such as the draft, which will always be American-heavy even as it diminishes in value year-to-year). I'm a huge TFC supporter, I'm not ashamed of that, but I've been a Canadian supporter long before that. To me Canada comes first (I chose the Canada-Honduras game in Montreal over a TFC home game that I had already paid for, for instance), but I'd never ask any of the three pro clubs in Canada to compromise their chances simply to field as many token Canadians as possible. Ed knows that although he and I are butting heads on this issue, I respect his views and we share a lot of the same goals for Canadian soccer as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by RJB I take offense to this. I do just as much for Canadian soccer as the next guy. I raise a stink at Cafe Roma when they won't put Canada on. I write all the letters to media types, or CSA staffers that the Voyageurs ask me to write. And I trumpet Canadian soccer to anyone who will listen. Just because I don't come to your 'events' doesn't mean a thing, and shame on you for suggesting that. Tell me, if I did none of the above, but came out to an 'event' and had half a dozen beers, would that make me worthy to you? Ignorant. Maybe we need to have different levels of Voyageurs so that YNWA can differentiate between those who do something, and those who don't, since according to him all support and participation has to be overt? This is the most meaningless paragraph I've ever read on this board. If you don't like getting hit, don't start fights. And save your fuking feigned outrage for the latest semantics debate of the appropriateness of slang terms for homosexuals -[a topic] which I know you have a special affinity for. On the other hand, I have no way of knowing how you support Canada. All I know is what I've stated. I didn't say you're not a Canada supporter. I simply implied that you're an idiot. Another poster on this board with a ridiculous agenda. By your own admission, my suggestion appears correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by RJB Way to tow the company line Rudi. You certainly know how to spew the same crap the club does. If you took a moment to look at things objectively, you'd be embarassed by TFC's record too. Instead, your focused on your title of "Super Biggest Mega Fan" and are avoiding being critical. Part of being a fan is to ask questions, but you're too busy spouting out the clubs answers I suppose. TFC's record with Canadians is horrible, and that's without comparing it to Montreal and Vancouver. Rudi is TFC's biggest cheerleader, pom poms and all. I admire him for it. Someone has to get the award for least critical most status quo most insecure butt-licking poster on the Voyageurs board. And its been Rudi longer than I can say the Impact are the only winner ever of the Voyageurs Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Rudi is TFC's biggest cheerleader, pom poms and all. I admire him for it. Someone has to get the award for least critical most status quo most insecure butt-licking poster on the Voyageurs board. And its been Rudi longer than I can say the Impact are the only winner ever of the Voyageurs Cup. The insecure butt-licker award is nothing compare to the Bipolar Award, which belongs to you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Sweet! Is this the thread where we get to rag on other Voyageurs?!? Awesome! If that's the case, Matthew: your favourite musical group/musician is clearly less talented than my favourite band. Loyola: your sense of style is pedestrian, at best. Jeffrey S.: your spatial reasoning is specious and unsound. Loud Mouth Soup: your mother has been known to have many suitors in the past. Alright, who's next? [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by El Hombre Sweet! Is this the thread where we get to rag on other Voyageurs?!? Awesome! If that's the case, Matthew: your favourite musical group/musician is clearly less talented than my favourite band. Loyola: your sense of style is pedestrian, at best. Jeffrey S.: your spatial reasoning is specious and unsound. Loud Mouth Soup: your mother has been known to have many suitors in the past. Alright, who's next? [] Nothing for the instigator??? A 2min for RJB maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Rudi is TFC's biggest cheerleader, pom poms and all. I admire him for it. Someone has to get the award for least critical most status quo most insecure butt-licking poster on the Voyageurs board. And its been Rudi longer than I can say the Impact are the only winner ever of the Voyageurs Cup. Oh man, classic Jeffey S. (or as Loyola says "bipolar Jeffey S."). I mean as much as Rudi and I argue about Impact-TFC and Ultras-U-Sector stuff even I can't agree with Jeffey's comments (other than the bit about the Impact being the only winner of the Voyageurs Cup ever ). Actually, Loyola's comment is pretty funny because I can't count the number of times at Canada games how many different Voyageurs have asked me if I thought Jeffey was bipolar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by El Hombre Sweet! Is this the thread where we get to rag on other Voyageurs?!? Awesome! If that's the case, Matthew: your favourite musical group/musician is clearly less talented than my favourite band. Loyola: your sense of style is pedestrian, at best. Jeffrey S.: Nice answer Einstein. I hope you enjoy your role as part of the old boy music industry network. Your WASP background doesn't let you see how racist you really are, you just love to denigrate the <Oh, nice. And on President Obama's 1st day to. Mod edit>. Just because you have met a few bands you feel the need to defend them so you won't lose your priviledge of hanging with the stars. Loud Mouth Soup: your mother has been known to have many suitors in the past. Alright, who's next? [] Fixed your post to reflect reality a bit more accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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