Is Hart really the answer...(this is not pro Dale)

[Paddy]

I want Mitchel gone as much as anyone (never wanted him in the first place), but I am not sure that Hart is the answer. I have no problem with him stepping in for Mitchel for the rest of qualification, as it would at least be a symbolic gesture by the CSA that they care about qualification.

The problem with Hart is that everyone is basing his ability based on the Gold Cup. We need to put this to bed once and for all: The Gold Cup and World Cup qualifying are in no way related. If it were, then Holger would have gotten us to the WC based on winning the GC. No coaching change there.

I don't want to start a long debate about Holger and his failings, but I think we need to look outside of Canada again. Hart is fine for now and the sacking of Mitchel prior to Mexico could give the team a moral boost.

[theaub]

Fire Mitchell, hire Hart, and then have a legit coaching search in about 2 months so we can have a new coach in place for the GC.

[Mimglow]

Dale was always the wrong answer, and most of us knew this. How is it you get promoted after the debacle of the Under-20's? Oh right, it's the CSA's Bizarro World!

Hart has at least shown he can win at Canada's helm.

[Richard]

I don't think anybody believes Steven Hart is god's gift to the CMNT but he does offer a big step up over DM, won't break the bank for the CSA and his promotion would not involve any kind of hiring process with the time delays that involves as he is already on the books.

Personally I have MUCH more confidence in Steven Hart's demonstrated ability to get the job done than I have ever had in Dale Mitchell who should never have been appointed in the first place. The pinnacle of his coaching career was the disaster of the U-20 WC preceded by a few not very successful years coaching the Vancouver 86ers in the A-League. That's it. Not sure how that qualifies anybody to coach a team at the FIFA World Cup?

[Sam]

We've played well under Hart yet. He should have been the obvious choice over Mitchell. I had no problem with Mitchell until WCQ. I was even defending him on saturday afternoon. I now have no sympathy for Mitchell anymore 5 big games coaching in Canada. 3 in the U-20 WC and 2 in WCQ and we've gotten one point...

[BrennanFan]

The reality is that Stephen Hart has just as much input as Dale does in terms of selection, on field coaching, and strategy- especially in offense as Mitchell is more defense oriented even though he was a forward. It is very much a 2 man show. The team's failure is every bit the fault of Hart as it is Dales.

lets get real, the Gold cup was about a lack of pressure on the squad, 2 wicked individual goals by deguz, and a super weak Guatemalan team. it had nothing to do with Harts coaching. hart is no step up from dale. its all the same ****.

[The Beaver]

^ Not convinced that the CSL has coaches who can do better than Mitchell or Hart. I like Hart, but I suspect we need somebody outside of Canada to take us to the next level. Can we afford just such a coach? No, not likely.

Mitchell should finish this round of qualifying. Maybe he can right the ship, but if he cannot, it makes little sense to keep him on any longer.

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I don't think anybody believes Steven Hart is god's gift to the CMNT but he does offer a big step up over DM, won't break the bank for the CSA and his promotion would not involve any kind of hiring process with the time delays that involves as he is already on the books.

Personally I have MUCH more confidence in Steven Hart's demonstrated ability to get the job done than I have ever had in Dale Mitchell who should never have been appointed in the first place. The pinnacle of his coaching career was the disaster of the U-20 WC preceded by a few not very successful years coaching the Vancouver 86ers in the A-League. That's it. Not sure how that qualifies anybody to coach a team at the FIFA World Cup?

Agree, there are coaches in the CSL that will do a much better job with the MNT that Mitchell could ever dream of doing.

These coaches have more international experience than all the CSA coaching stuff put together. But of course they don't have english last names.

Too bad for the good players we have, they're missing a big opportunity to be in the next WC, because now only a miracle will get us through.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Mimglow

Dale was always the wrong answer, and most of us knew this. How is it you get promoted after the debacle of the Under-20's? Oh right, it's the CSA's Bizarro World!

Hart has at least shown he can win at Canada's helm.

Actually, DM got promoted BEFORE the U20 WC. [xx(]

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

^ Not convinced that the CSL has coaches who can do better than Mitchell or Hart. I like Hart, but I suspect we need somebody outside of Canada to take us to the next level. Can we afford just such a coach? No, not likely.

Mitchell should finish this round of qualifying. Maybe he can right the ship, but if he cannot, it makes little sense to keep him on any longer.

Do you know any of these coaches? you watch the CSL from Vancouver?

[VPjr]

it might be a reach to state that there are coaches in the CSL ready to take the helm of the MNT.

it is fair to say that there are coaches in the CSL with more professional experience than Dale and who have learned to find ways to win games with limited resources.. What these coaches don't have, truthfully, is the record for most goals for Canada. Dale's friends felt they owed him something for being such a great player. Look where that favour has gotten us.

I'm biased but I can think of at least 1-2 coaches in the CSL who definitely deserve to be selected as an assistant to a new head coach and/or get named head coach of the U20's.

[Richard]

Surely the criteria for earning the top coaching job in the country in the country involves more than being a goalscorer on the national team?

I don't accept that Steven Hart has as much input as Dale Mitchell on player selection, on field tactics etc. Mitchell is the head coach, he can reject every suggestion made by Hart if he wishes and I suspect many of Harts suggestions are indeed rejected or overuled.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

It somehow appears Hart is better than Dale. He may be. This could be very subtle, but sometimes these things are like that.

In either case we are not talking about truly international quality coaches, neither is at the level of coaching that any of the players are in the clubs. I'd say they are USL Div 1 Level, notwithstanding some of the mediocre coaching we are seeing in Toronto this year.

The world is full of quality coaches, guys who have trained clubs in strong pro leagues, who have played pro and have professional qualifications. Some countries produce quality coaching in droves, like Holland, while others may not be so well known but are miles ahead of us (the Balkan nations). Admittedly the Argentines are a bit special, and I am not sure the Brazilians are really that good, since they mostly let their teams play and are not tactical geniuses on the whole.

I think we'd be very well off with a strong Dutch or Danish or Serbian coach with top flight coaching experience and the willingness to take on a challenge. Sure, someone like Simoes but maybe not so weird.

As for Simoes, to be fair to him this bunch he has at Jamaica are inferior in quality to the last group he had, it is not like he is a miracle worker. But they have the same points as us after two AWAY games, so we are doing the absolute worst of all sides.

[Eric]

My point is in regards to the canadian qualify coaches who are actually coaching in the CSL. As VPjr said, "it is fair to say that there are coaches in the CSL with more professional experience than Dale and who have learned to find ways to win games with limited resources." give those coaches the resources of a men or youth national team and you will see results for sure.

I know that at least four of them have uefa a licenses and that is suppose to be the highest coaching license in the world if I'm not mistaking. What license does Dale Mitchell have? ....... yes I know..... a special driver's license to drive backwards only!!

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

The reality is that Stephen Hart has just as much input as Dale does in terms of selection, on field coaching, and strategy- especially in offense as Mitchell is more defense oriented even though he was a forward. It is very much a 2 man show. The team's failure is every bit the fault of Hart as it is Dales.

From whom or where did you get your information?

On another thread I voiced my concerns over Hart's abilities to be the manager of this team. In fact, at the time this debate was going on last year after the Gold Cup success, I posted that both these guys should have been "number 2s" in a national team coaching scheme because they both lacked the higher level professional coaching credentials this position demands. That said, I feel relieving Mitchell of his duties and returning Hart to the head job may be just enough to re-kindle within the players the confidence boost much needed for the immediate task at hand. Though I have felt that, in Shakespeare's words from MacBeth, "greatness was thrust upon him" at last year's Gold Cup, I nonetheless feel that his lasting memory of coaching the MNT was an excitingly played run for the Gold Cup. Mitchell's recent cv is the opposite.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Surely the criteria for earning the top coaching job in the country in the country involves more than being a goalscorer on the national team?

I don't accept that Steven Hart has as much input as Dale Mitchell on player selection, on field tactics etc. Mitchell is the head coach, he can reject every suggestion made by Hart if he wishes and I suspect many of Harts suggestions are indeed rejected or overuled.

Strange as it may seem, I totally agree with you. Hart has proven himself even as interim coach, Mitchell has not proven anything, even as a head coach. As a player he was not that good either, he was just a target man. His days coaching the Whitecaps maybe were frown upon, you Richard may know more about that.

[Melpomenus]

Berti Vogts is training the Azerbaidjani national team, Arie Haan is training the Albanian national team. I don't really want to say that these two guys are good for Canada, but probably there's a good European coach just waiting for a call...

[Eric]

^ Yeah, but those are not "YES SIR" coaches, they will have their own way or no way and this is the CSA we're dealing with!!

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

It somehow appears Hart is better than Dale. He may be. This could be very subtle, but sometimes these things are like that.

In either case we are not talking about truly international quality coaches, neither is at the level of coaching that any of the players are in the clubs. I'd say they are USL Div 1 Level, notwithstanding some of the mediocre coaching we are seeing in Toronto this year.

The world is full of quality coaches, guys who have trained clubs in strong pro leagues, who have played pro and have professional qualifications. Some countries produce quality coaching in droves, like Holland, while others may not be so well known but are miles ahead of us (the Balkan nations). Admittedly the Argentines are a bit special, and I am not sure the Brazilians are really that good, since they mostly let their teams play and are not tactical geniuses on the whole.

I think we'd be very well off with a strong Dutch or Danish or Serbian coach with top flight coaching experience and the willingness to take on a challenge. Sure, someone like Simoes but maybe not so weird.

As for Simoes, to be fair to him this bunch he has at Jamaica are inferior in quality to the last group he had, it is not like he is a miracle worker. But they have the same points as us after two AWAY games, so we are doing the absolute worst of all sides.

Nobody is suggesting Hart is the best choice when considering the options worldwide, just that he is available, already on the payroll and can step into the job at a moment's notice plus he is a far better choice than Dale Mitchell.

[Whither Canada]

I don't believe that Hart is the answer, but what's wrong with Hart seeing us through the rest of this round? He's around the team, he's familiar with the players and vice-versa, and he's coached them before. Should he pull off the semi-miracle and get us through to the hex, let him run with it.

It won't cost us anything and it would speak loudly to the players and the supporters that losing will no longer be accepted as usual.

Should Canada exit after this round, then start the search anew. I see turning this team over to Hart immediately as a no-cost play.

[Soju]

Hart consistently got good games out of DeRo, deGuz, Hutch, et all. Mitchell can't. Fire him.

[maccaliam]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

Hart consistently got good games out of DeRo, deGuz, Hutch, et all. Mitchell can't. Fire him.

Absolutely. Like was said elsewhere, a good coach brings the best out of his players. Mitchell hasn't done that.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Melpomenus

Berti Vogts is training the Azerbaidjani national team, Arie Haan is training the Albanian national team. I don't really want to say that these two guys are good for Canada, but probably there's a good European coach just waiting for a call...

Berti Vogts is a shi-t European coach. He had some success with the German team but that was full of top notch players and eventually declined under him. At the end of his German term, he was probably the most hated coach in German history. During his short and unsuccessful term at Bayer Leverkusen, one of his former national team players gave him the finger during a game. Then he coached Scotland to absolutely dismal results. Then his successor immediately turned around Scotland's results and Vogts claimed credit for this. He was without doubt the worst manager in the Scottish national team history. This was followed by a similarly unsuccessful reign as coach of Nigeria.

Haan might be more interesting but he has a two year contract with Albania.

[CanadasBest]

I'm not saying Hart is the best solution for Canada either. I'm just saying put Hart in charge again temporarily, and make a deal with him that if he can get us to the next round then he gets a decent size cash bonus and a contract to coach the national team through the 2014 World Cup Campaign. It's a win-win situation for everyone.

If he can't make it through then he interim coaches until we find a world class permanent replacement. This whole process of being loyal to our coaching staff despite poor results does not fly in the world of sports and it certainly does not in business in general.

[tellytubby]

Hart consistently got good results from Hutch, Dero, and deguzman because he played with a holding mid(Nash) behind them. This allowed them to push forward and get more involved. I don't think Nash is the guy because in the USA game his lack of pace was exposed, but the idea of having a holding mid behind those three proved to be beneficial. Why Mitchell chose not to do this is any ones guess.

I've read on this board that the problem is the 4-5-1 formation. I don't believe this. Since our best players are midfielders, you should play to that strength. It worked in the Gold Cup. The problem is where Mitchell is playing his midfielders. I haven't seen Imhof play( I just figured streaming out a year ago), so I don't know if he's that guy.

I was also impressed by how Hart was able to regroup after the loss to Guadeloupe in the Gold Cup. I just don't think that Mitchell has the confidence of the players to be calm and confident in times of adversity. I would think that with the limited time that a National manager has to work with players, sometimes it's more important how he deals with the personalities and where they will excel rather than pure x's and o's. That's why I stated in my first post that I thought it was silly to replace Hart last year. It cries of nepotism.

Is Hart the next coming of Alex Ferguson? Probably not, but he seemed the right man for the job considering the paltry budget the CSA was willing to spend and the results that he got while being in charge.